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How do you play Thunder Hammer Terminators in a Vulkan list? The reason I ask is say you have 10 guys (and with Sangiunary guard this issue will become more prevailent) and they have master crafted thunder hammers allowing each 1, exactly 1 reroll. Do you:

Option A

Rules is rules, each model has to roll for it's attacks seperately and can re-roll one miss if that occurs. This is the RAW and most probably RAI of the situation and ensures that you only get 1 re-roll if applicable to each model. Thus should 1 particular model hit with all his attacks he doesn't get to transfer his re-roll to another memeber of the squad. However this could take a serious amount of time. Taking us back to the old days of Ternminators 2d6 save throw, "I've scored 20 wounds oh dear that's the next hour gone rolling saves"... However doing it any other way would be an unfair advantage to already one of the best units in the game.

Option B

I'll break the RAW to make life easier for myself and my opponent. I will allow Hammernators to roll all their attacks together and re-roll exactly 10 misses. This will mean that the Hammernators will gain the advantage of always getting 10 re-rolls even though some may well hit with all their attacks (particularly if they are not on the charge so only have 2 attacks each). This is an obvious advantage to them but not a critical one and life is too short to spend that long rolling for each models attacks individually.

Or do you resolve it some other way. With Sangiunary guard capable of deing a troops choice and having the rather lame MC Power weapons this "issue" of loads of master crafted CC attacks in a single unit is likely to become a serious issue and I was wondering how people play it currently in Vulkan builds or indeed any other unit that has all MC weapons?

Option A, noone at my FLGS uses moer than 6 Hammernators, it doesnt take that much longer to play according to the rules so its well worth it.

OK with 6 Hammernators not too much of an issue. What about with 15-20 Sanguinary guard all in assault? It is just an issue that is going to grow with the new BA codex whilst I've never played with or against as many as 10 Hammernators I was wondering what people who did would do in that situation as the Sanguinary guard are going to blow this up potentially exponentially...

As you said, these are two units that are both going to be very effective. It would be very unbalancing to grant these units additional benefits that are not specifically allowed by the rules.

While rolling each model individually may be time consuming and somewhat frustrating for the person playing that unit, that's the price they have to pay if they want to field that unit.

In case you couldn't tell from my post, I go with Option A.

Yeah I voted A myself was just wondering if anyone came against 10 Hammernators and they had a different solution or just went with B. Like for instance I'll often let Ork players roll for and move their runs in the movement phase to speed things up but there is no benefit for them to be had there.

I don't think Sanguinary guard are THAT great at the same price as Hammernators with with 2 handed MC power weapons. Their bolters are pretty good but personally I'd always give them all fists just for the fun of it (or at least most of them).

I play with A but only because my opponent demands me to roll that way. If I could choose, I would just roll them all and roll X amount of dice again.
BTW, despite being a "wise" person, I don't (by short amount of thinking) don't see any difference with A and B options to statistics. Could someone light my inner wisdom?

If one Termie misses more than once and another hits with all you are gaining more re-rolls than you should by assigning the re-roll from the guy who hit all to the guy who missed more. It is a HUGE advantage.

Option A. For above posted reasons.

The advantage is this 5 terminators attack. 2 attacks each hiting on a 4+

Method A:

T1: 3 and 6
T2: 4 and 5
T3: 1 and 2
T4: 5 and 5
T5: 3 and 2

Then you'd get 5 hits and 3 re-rolls, neither T2 nor T4 would get any re-rolls as they hit with all their attacks.

Method B:

Assuming same rolls you'd roll:

a 3, 6, 4, 5, 1, 2, 5, 5, 3, 2

So still 5 hits but you'd get 5 re-rolls on average gaining 1 extra hit in this case. Granted the figures I brought up are arbitrary in terms of results of rolls.

However the increase in effectiveness is fairly marginal though not entirely insignificant and in the case of Hammernators they are already one of the best units in the game.

A Terminator would have to hit all of it's attacks for it to make a difference. So if you needed a 4+ to-hit the chances of both attacks hitting are 25%. So, each Termy has a 25% chance of giving up their re-roll to another Termy that missed more than once (also a 25% chance).

FlingitNow wrote:The advantage is this 5 terminators attack. 2 attacks each hiting on a 4+

Method A:

T1: 3 and 6
T2: 4 and 5
T3: 1 and 2
T4: 5 and 5
T5: 3 and 2

Then you'd get 5 hits and 3 re-rolls, neither T2 nor T4 would get any re-rolls as they hit with all their attacks.

Method B:

Assuming same rolls you'd roll:

a 3, 6, 4, 5, 1, 2, 5, 5, 3, 2

So still 5 hits but you'd get 5 re-rolls on average gaining 1 extra hit in this case. Granted the figures I brought up are arbitrary in terms of results of rolls.

However the increase in effectiveness is fairly marginal though not entirely insignificant and in the case of Hammernators they are already one of the best units in the game.

And will be getting better with the BA codex, adding a Sanguinary Priest to them for FNP (and Furious Charge, though that's lost on them.)

Er.... no it isn't... last I heard S9 was better than S8....

So a squad of 10 Termies would on average give up about 2.5 re-rolls, meaning using method B for a full squad of 10 Hammernators would only yield about 1.25 extra hits. Could be significant but not game changing...

S9 or 8 is pretty much the same in most cases, but yes it is another benefit for them. Though they wouldn't be MC in a blood Angels list so this would be moot. Instead the Sangiunary Guard which can be taken as troops and all have the Glaive Encarmines are the ones causing the issue.

No they'd give up 5 re-rolls. With 2 attacks each.

FlingitNow wrote:

S9 or 8 is pretty much the same in most cases

That's what I was getting at - that one of the biggest advantages of Furious Charge (+1 Init) is lost on them.

No they'd give up 5 re-rolls. With 2 attacks each.

The 25% was already taking into account both attacks. As each model with all it's attacks has a 25% chance of not getting a re-roll, so for 10 models that is on average 2.5 re-rolls that they shouldn't get that they would get using Method B.

The absolute maximum they could get is 5 from the 10 guys assuming half hit everything and the other half missed everything (granting 10 re-rolls where it should have been only 5).

So doubling the potential is just a marginal advantage?

So doubling the potential is just a marginal advantage?

It can potentially double the re-rolls but in reality that is hugely unlikely on average it would cause an extra 1.25 hits which is a marginal advantage for 10 Hammernators.

Do you really see 1.25 hits as a game changing advantage for a 400 point unit?

Statistics aside, every time I have called a Sally player on it and they rolled how they were supposed to they say the squad was much less effective than usual.

Option A.
Anything else is a bonus on top of a bonus...which is frankly too much already.

Fair enough I'm not saying they should use method B (I voted A myself) just pointing out statiscally it is not a huge bonus. But it is certyainly as bonus as Sanctjud has pointed out on top of another bonus onto what is already on of the best units in the game.

Just wondering what people will do with 20-25 models with MC power weapons in CC? Which lets face it is bound to happen with Sanguinary guard being a) Plastic and b) available as a troops choice...

But they are only in squads of 5 and VERY expensive.

I presume they will play by the rules or risk being called cheaters.

I honestly don't care if that makes them non-viable in tournaments. Tough kitty toenails.
Horde-type armies already live with this. Either push for longer playtime or go to another tournament.

But they are only in squads of 5 and VERY expensive.

Same price as Hammernators but yeah not cheap but can be taken as troops.

I presume they will play by the rules or risk being called cheaters.

I honestly don't care if that makes them non-viable in tournaments. Tough kitty toenails.
Horde-type armies already live with this. Either push for longer playtime or go to another tournament.

Wasn't thinking so much about Tournaments each tournament would have a ruling and to be honest in a Tournament I expect you'd have to play RaW. Just wondering how people play it out side fo that and what people will do when the assault phase suddenly last half an hour...

All we need now is for them all to have digital weapons as well

Thankfully I play in a gaming group and don't have to put up with some of the issues presented in tournaments or even pickup games.

In my group we talked about how differently equipped Nobz could slow down the game and how we could speed it back up.
Making everybody aware of the rules and using a "character sheet" for the mob worked perfectly.

I'll imagine that we'll work something out as well. I think we'll just stick to the rules.
Rolling X dice, removing misses, rerolling one, removing misses, pushing successes to one side and repeating does not make the assault phase into a half-hour marathon.

Flingitnow - there IS an advantage with moving your Run! distance in the movement phase - it means you know your total maximum move, so you know if you can safely reach that next piece of cover or not, before you start moving. It's just a less obvious advantage.

I go with Option A: if you want to bring an awkward unit, then you have to live with the downsides.

I think Steelmage was also going on more about the time limits tournaments have than strict RAW adherence - tourney games are (usually) tight timewise, so people may use that as an excuse to gain an added advantage. However if they practice enough it should slow down - just roll in batches of two, rerolling one miss if applicable, and totting up hits that way.

Option A.

If you expect it to be a problem due to speed of rolling, buy more colors of dice. You can probably get about two dozen different colors if you try just a little.

Flingitnow - there IS an advantage with moving your Run! distance in the movement phase - it means you know your total maximum move, so you know if you can safely reach that next piece of cover or not, before you start moving. It's just a less obvious advantage.

True, but you have the disadvantage of having moved should you shooting not go to plan and you want to shoot with that unit wel they've already run... But yes it is an advantage but I still normally let them use it (i've never played Orks).

I go with Option A: if you want to bring an awkward unit, then you have to live with the downsides.

I'm pretty loyal to the Ultramarines when to comes to space marine chapters, so it was more from a point of me not wanting to have to wait around for him to roll 25 batches of two with rerolls as applicable than me intending to be the one rerolling.

I think Steelmage was also going on more about the time limits tournaments have than strict RAW adherence - tourney games are (usually) tight timewise, so people may use that as an excuse to gain an added advantage. However if they practice enough it should slow down - just roll in batches of two, rerolling one miss if applicable, and totting up hits that way.

I know but you have to live with both the RAW and the time limit if you are taking part in a tournament. To be honest I'm not conmvinced such an army would cause problems for the time limits as such an army would be incredibly small so the shooting and movement phases would be over in a jiffy.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Flingitnow - there IS an advantage with moving your Run! distance in the movement phase - it means you know your total maximum move, so you know if you can safely reach that next piece of cover or not, before you start moving. It's just a less obvious advantage.

I go with Option A: if you want to bring an awkward unit, then you have to live with the downsides.

I think Steelmage was also going on more about the time limits tournaments have than strict RAW adherence - tourney games are (usually) tight timewise, so people may use that as an excuse to gain an added advantage. However if they practice enough it should slow down - just roll in batches of two, rerolling one miss if applicable, and totting up hits that way.

thats easy to fix, i dont have a problem with people doing that but if they are, they have to move the first model showing direction and distance of the unit movement, then they roll fleet, move the first model the fleet distance, then move the rest of the unit. that prevents someone from knowing if they are geting 7" or 12" before they move a model. ive not had any opponent that has had a problem with that method.

FlingitNow wrote:

Just wondering what people will do with 20-25 models with MC power weapons in CC? Which lets face it is bound to happen with Sanguinary guard being a) Plastic and b) available as a troops choice...

I'm not so sure about that. I mean, Assault Squads are also troop choices. What's the point difference? 15 points? I mean, when you think about it, having 25 of these models would cost you 1000 points. 5 units of 5. Yeah, it would be strong, but you really see people doing this? With characters in the 200+ range, Sanguinary priests starting at 50 points, all the dreads you can imagine, Death Company and all the FA goodies they get to take (read, Baal Preds), Fast Vindicators and the like?

I mean, I could see it being a concern if every unit on the field had it, I'm just not sure you're going to run into that.