Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I have recently implemented Chaos Raptors into my list. I tried them out in two games (w/ Assault Marines counting as) and they worked really well. However, last night, they got demolished rather quickly in both games we played. Let me show you how I am running them in our 1500 point games:

8 x Raptors
2 w/ Flamers
1 w/ IoCG
Includes - Champ w/ melta bombs (would have went w/ Fist, but ran out of points)

This squad was assisted by:
Sorcerer
Wings
Winds of Chaos
Melta Bombs

I am not going to post my whole list, as this is more of a tactics question than a list critique, but just so you have an idea:
3x 10-man troop squads in rhinos w/ 2 meltas (1 w/ 2 plasmas); Oblits x3; Termies x3 (combi-meltas and fists)

Last night's report: In the first game they made it to an IG unit (10 strong) and flamed them into non-existence before my opponent made short work of them in his next shooting phase. In the second game, they were all killed on their way across the field except for the sorcerer who made it to a command squad hosted by Creed & Krell. The result? I blasted w/ winds, assaulted, and rolled terribly on both. I lost him and left Creed still standing by the end of the 2nd assault phase.

In retrospect, they drew a lot of fire, moved quickly behind the cover of rhinos, and did a lot of damage to the unit they targeted. So, here are my questions:
1.) Did they perform as expected? Is this the "way" of the Raptor? They are shock troops, so I half-expected them to fly in, annihilate something, and then get smothered.
2.) How do you use them? Do you deep strike them or run them behind rhinos? Or something else?
3.) How many models in your Raptor squads? I was thinking a smaller squad size (of 5 w/ special weps) would make them less "threatening" and easier to hide.

As I said earlier, I have been running them w/ counts as models and I just bought conversion pieces to make my own raptors. Only problem is, I am not sure if I want to do that just yet. At least, not until I do a bit more research/playtesting to figure them out.

Thanks,
flightmek

Paging Night Lords...

Regarding my own advice, I noticed that you have them armed to the gills with template weapons. And used those template weapons on a squad of Imperial Guardsmen. That was a bad idea, since that means you were close enough that the Imperial Guard could shoot back effectively.

I think, not knowing more about how the game developed, it would have been better to forgo the Flamers and just charged in without shooting. Moreover, tried to charge multiple units. If you'd had an Icon of Khorne and a Sorcerer with Warptime instead of Wind of Chaos, then you would have been slightly more resistant to bad luck (rolling more attack dice for the Raptors, re-rolling attack dice for the Sorcerer) when you put them in the relative safety of close combat with lot of Guardsmen.

Only use the Flamers if the target is a huge enemy squad that you can pile into combat with.

I use Raptors and have always found them to be one of the better units I have on the table.

I usually run them with:

8-9 Raptors
1 of which is a champ w/ fist
Icon of Chaos Glory
x2 Meltas

I see you have two flamers, but personally I think meltas are the only way to go with them (coming from someone who is pretty open minded with CSM squads). Flamers are nice but situational. Meltas allow them to destroy a transport and assault (at 18").

You have to ask yourself, if Im going to take a squad of raptors, what do they do that CSM dont?

1. They have the largest melta range in the entire army. At 18", only Oblits w/ multimelta that roll 6 to move (luck), dreads with MM (not a viable loadout), and bikes (expensive) tie the range. And even then Raptors almost completely ignore cover, meaning a building in the way is not an issue (they have 18" in a straight line).

2. They can hop over cover, completely hidden from enemy fire until they reach combat. IG obviously has some barrage, but keeping the raptors behind rhinos for the most part will keep them completely safe. Yes, you may be losing out on the run, and moving the same speed as the troops...but here is the next point...

3. They can move 12" and assault 6". They can do this by hopping over a rhino/cover, meaning they get into combat a round earlier than your rhinos. This also means your rhinos are more likely to survive since now youre tying up 1 or 2 units with your raptors. They can also be kept in reserve and protect 18" of your side, especially in the table corners deployment.

4. They can deepstrike...which is actually not a bad idea, albeit risky. If youre playing something like a gunline (IG), and you have LOS blocking terrain, you can DS them in and hop over it the next turn, assaulting the line. Its better than getting barrage'd to death.


I think theyre completely underrated. They essentially trade a rhino and scoring for jump packs points wise. If I were to run an HQ with them, I would go with a Lord and Claws to give them the edge in combat.

Hope this gives some insight.

I run my raptors ina squad of 10 with 2 flamers and a champ with p-Fist. i fid thattehy do attract a lot of fire.

i have to agree with Night Lords. Whiel flamer are nicve for takgin otu sqauds and makign the assault less risky, they dolimit your options, and you mgiht find yourself wiping out the squad in the shooting phase and wastign the assault potential.

i am tryign to fid a couelp of melat guns bitz so i can chaneg them out. i woudl also reccomend MoK (or maybe MoS for the first hit).

I would definitely argue that Icon of Chaos Glory is the best icon for raptors in particular.

Why? The reason being that the raptors are going to get shot at. If you are unlucky enough to have 2 killed from shooting, and you fail your morale check, your unit is running 3D6 in the wrong direction, essentially wasting 1-2 turns to get back.

IoCG turns the odds from 1/12 to 1/144. Pretty big difference.

Also the point costs come into play. For the price of Khorne I can get IoCG and an additional raptor that is going to get 3 attacks + 1 pistol (plus another wound)...leaving only 6 attacks extra on the khorne side (which is nearly nothing). Do you want to do 0.5 more wounds to Marines or ensure that your 250 point squad doesnt run off the table/out of combat?

Same thing goes with Nurgle, and Slaneesh is so situational I dont think its worth it.

Good point. IoCG it is from now on.

I've gone with:
10 Raptors, 2 Meltas, IoCG, Champ w/ Claw.
Just for kicks.
I used them as another bully unit that is my pair of Undivided Daemon Princes.

They fly around together and generally look imposing and die, while the rest of the army does the real work.

One thing: hide them behind rhinos if all you are looking for is special weapon delivery or a counter charge element.

I personally don't like the Spiky Smurf vibe, so I replaced the squad with 20 lesser daemons....been happy ever since, but it's getting off-topic

Slightly off topic - what do you guys use for raptors? Does anyoen bother to buy the nasty metal models?

I used a box set of 'zerkers (chopped off the khorne-horns) with some mail-order jump packs.

Praxiss wrote:Slightly off topic - what do you guys use for raptors? Does anyoen bother to buy the nasty metal models?

I used a box set of 'zerkers (chopped off the khorne-horns) with some mail-order jump packs.

I will be using Chaos Marines w/ Assault Marine Jetpacks (three done already). I will be adding chains, spikes, skulls, and anything else cool that I can find to the jets to make them more.....chaos. I know it's the cheap way to do it (I'd prefer possessed wings on all of them if I could afford it), but I find them to be more than acceptable when one considers 40 bucks for 5 metal ones. I like your idea of the zerkers heads. I might steal it.

On the advice so far:
Thanks so much, guys. I am glad that people have had success w/ them, as I like them a lot and I have a sort of "Death from Above" theme going right now. I originally used deepstriking termies (armed w/ combi-meltas) + the oblits for anti-vehicle, but I think I am going to switch to meltas on the Raptors & swap the melta-termies for flamer-termies. The termies are reliable (due to all the icons) and can plop right down and burn my enemies to a cinder!

Thanks again - any more advice is much appreciated!

Mine are Space Marine Assault Marines with Berzerker Helmets with the bunny-ears cut off, chainswords replaced with knives, added Melta Guns, and all the skulls carefully shaved off.

My guys:

Metal Death Company Bodies, Loyalist Assault marine jump packs.
Cut a Ripper in half and used the head as the face, Greenstuffed hood on top, Greenstuff eyes to the jump pack, attached scything talons to the bolt pistol side and filled in gaps with more GS.

I think Raptors have three possible uses:

1. Meltagun wielding tanks hunters. These would be small (5-6) squads that jump from cover to cover, and blow up tanks, dreds, or whatever. Keep the squads cheap and take more than one.

2. Counterassault. They stick with the rest of my manz and act as a reactionary force. If my opponent does anything that I don't like, I throw the Raptors at it. If you keep the squad medium large (8-10) then you have enough guys to do some damage, or at least buy you some time.

Raptors are great at this because they are so fast. Units DSing or outflanking into an awkward part of your battle line get slapped with Raptors before they can do much, and the rest of your manz just keep doing their thing.

3. Daemon bombs. Smallish (5-6) units of Raptors with your favorite Icons and several units of Lesser Daemons, or even a Champ and one of the big guys if you are feeling mean. Laugh at your opponent as you fly your Raptors up and drop a pile of crap in his lap.

Your Raptor's special weapons will determine what their job is after they drop off the little uglies. Melta raptors can start popping tanks, flamer raptors can join in with the assaults. If you choose to go with the Greater Daemon, then keep your champ plain so you only lose 35 points when he explodes.

Screen Screen and more Screen. Use your rhinos to protect the Raptors at the very least giving them 4+ cover save.

I have found my biggest problem with Raptors is not being able to take two marks. If any unit needs it in the CSM codex it is them. You need MoCG and then go with whatever.

I typically take MoS or MoK. MoK because damn it they should have more attacks than a normal CSM squad. With MoK go with Power Fist.

MoS is the other I use because going first is sometimes better than having more attacks. Go with LC champs for that one of course.

As other have sad Raptors are great for counter assault and Demon Prince support.

Can't everything in the Chaos army get the Icon of Chaos which makes DS not scatter. Put that on a lager unit of Bikes w/ chaos glory. turbo boost 1st turn and have lots of cheap deamon units DS of them 2nd turn then DS the 2 Raptors units use rhion to cover them.
Now you have a flank turn 3 the Raptors can jump over all the melees with the demons and go after the the HQ of IG or Tau

DSing Raptors don't benefit from homing Icons.
DSing Raptors is not a great idea IMO.

Sanctjud wrote:DSing Raptors don't benefit from homing Icons.
DSing Raptors is not a great idea IMO.

Not usually. If youre on a terrain heavy board with lots of shooting, its not a bad idea.

Keeping them in reserve in spearhead is excellent though. One of the few times I do it with CSM.

@ Groslon:
I think that raptors are a huge point sink, and I regret that I have collected like 15 of them.. Most of the icons are way too expensive to even contemplate on a T4 3+ Sv marine with no guns.. And they can't even hide in a rhino, like oh so flexible Chaos Marines. If you want anti-tank, grab obliterators.. If you want anti-infantry, grab obliterators.. If you want some cc punch grab bezerkers, because raptors are a little too expensive for my liking..

I guess I'm one of the few that actually bought 10 of the new(ish) metal raptors? They have incredible power armor(especially their helmets) and I like their backpacks better than the assault marines. I think it is insane to pay GW's retail ($45) for them or any models and I got mine for much less. The biggest problem with them is they only come with one special weapon holding model per box (although it comes with melta/flamer/plasma) and the champion is stuck with 2x LCs. I guess most of their metal models suffer similar problems though.

ghastli wrote:
I think that raptors are a huge point sink, and I regret that I have collected like 15 of them.. Most of the icons are way too expensive to even contemplate on a T4 3+ Sv marine with no guns..

??? Raptors have no guns? Since when? They have bolt pistols standard and can take 2x special weapons.

ghastli wrote:And they can't even hide in a rhino, like oh so flexible Chaos Marines.

Most of the army list options can't use a rhino, and certainly none of the other fast attack options can, does that mean none of those are worth taking? I feel the lack of rhino is actually one of their main benefits (not relying on an easily destroyed transport to get them where they are going) and allows a great deal of mobility that a rhino just doesn't provide.

ghastli wrote:If you want anti-tank, grab obliterators.. If you want anti-infantry, grab obliterators.. If you want some cc punch grab bezerkers, because raptors are a little too expensive for my liking..

Who said raptors were the best for anti-tank or anti-infantry? The point of a squad of raptors is that they can effectively deal with a wide variety of unit types and get there quickly without requiring a flimsy rhino. They can deliver big hits in close combat, and make a great retinue for a second HQ like a lord/sorc.

So many people take full HS slots full of oblits but fail to even look at the other options in the HS section. The only thing that oblits have going for them is versatility(ie having the right weapon for the job), but that is ALL they have and they have it at a very high price for a single model that can be insta-killed. There are better options , for less points, and that can deliver a much higher volume of high strength high ap shots. Check out AC havocs and dakka preds before taking oblits. They are best used to supplement your HS choices ( like 2 havoc squads, or dakka preds, or vindis, etc) instead of being your only HS choice.

I like 5 raptors with 2 meltaguns that start on the board, fly up behind transports and try to pop enemy transports. Only 120pts.

DarthDiggler wrote:I like 5 raptors with 2 meltaguns that start on the board, fly up behind transports and try to pop enemy transports. Only 120pts.

That's how I run Raptors. might start running 2 units at 1500pts see how it goes!

@Halsfield

I have about 15 of the new metal raptors (ebay + paint stripped = cheap) I agree I love the detail and the packs.

I've ran 5 Raptors w/ 2 plasma guns for the lolz. Just hide behind a random rhino and pounce on something.

Not great, not poor.

In general, if you are looking at larger squads, I would just suggest going with CSM in a rhino.

Halsfield wrote: ??? Raptors have no guns? Since when? They have bolt pistols standard and can take 2x special weapons.

when i say "guns" i mean bolters AND bolt pistols, making them more flexible than one or the other

Halsfield wrote: Most of the army list options can't use a rhino, and certainly none of the other fast attack options can, does that mean none of those are worth taking? I feel the lack of rhino is actually one of their main benefits (not relying on an easily destroyed transport to get them where they are going) and allows a great deal of mobility that a rhino just doesn't provide.

There are sooo many units in chaos that have access to rhinos, seeing as a majority of the the units are in power armor..

Halsfield wrote: Who said raptors were the best for anti-tank or anti-infantry? The point of a squad of raptors is that they can effectively deal with a wide variety of unit types and get there quickly without requiring a flimsy rhino. They can deliver big hits in close combat, and make a great retinue for a second HQ like a lord/sorc.

Flimsy? Yeah i guess AV11 is kinda flimsy but it is another layer of defense between your opponent's guns and your squad of marines and it gets them where they need to be.

Halsfield wrote: So many people take full HS slots full of oblits but fail to even look at the other options in the HS section. The only thing that oblits have going for them is versatility(ie having the right weapon for the job), but that is ALL they have and they have it at a very high price for a single model that can be insta-killed. There are better options , for less points, and that can deliver a much higher volume of high strength high ap shots. Check out AC havocs and dakka preds before taking oblits. They are best used to supplement your HS choices ( like 2 havoc squads, or dakka preds, or vindis, etc) instead of being your only HS choice.

Is versatility the only thing they have going for them? A dakka pred gets shaken one time and can't shoot for a turn, the havocs sit in one spot, facing front armor of vehicles and infantry that are able to hide or miss with their non twinlinked weapons. Oblits are versatile because they can move and shoot, they can deep strike, they have almost every weapon, i could go on...

Rhinos do stand between a Chaos Space Marine and the harsh world out there, but when it does only two can fire out, so long as the vehicle hasn't been Stunned or Shaken. So you either get the protection of the Rhino or the benefit of Bolters, and not both at once. Plus the Rhino can be destroyed, and surrounding a Rhino and then destroying it is a great way to kill off excess Chaos Space Marines.

A Rhino can move 12", but then its passengers cannot fire, and cannot charge if they disembark. Likewise a Rhino cannot go over terrain or over screening troops (though it can tank shock them, but that's not so great if they have Melta Guns). A unit of Raptors can move 12" over terrain and bubble-wrap, shoot, and then charge, in a single turn. They're simply more mobile, and that mobility exists long after their ground-pounder brethren have been shot out of their Rhinos.

Finally the Obliterators don't have "almost every weapon": they have a few weapons. They don't have Missile Launchers, Autocannons, Bolt Pistols, Bolters, or Heavy Bolters. It's kind of cool they're armed exclusively with energy weapons, but they really lack certain utility weapons like Autocannons that are really efficient for dismounting enemy troops from their transports, knocking out enemy skimmers, and pounding enemy walkers.

They can move and shoot, but so can Havocs that are armed with special weapons, and the Havocs aren't Slow and Purposeful; so it's a wash in difficult terrain, but not otherwise, and definitely not in an assault. And honestly that's the neat thing about Autocannons, they have the dice so they don't need to move to catch side armour (and catching the side armour of Rhinos is pointless). Deep Strike is cool, if you're planning on having your Heavy Support turn up in T2+.

Not to say that Obliterators don't have their uses: as mentioned they are versatile, and they're great for accompanying Terminator Armoured special characters like Abbadon and Typhus, but face it: They're the slowest Heavy Support, the most expensive, the most vulnerable, and carry the fewest weapons.

Interestingly taking Raptors with an Icon does go some way towards making the versatility of Obliterators a boon, by giving them a beacon for their Deep Strike.

@Nurglitch:

By the time you need to shoot with your marines, they can hop out.. Its not like you are trapped in there, you could move 12" T1, move more T2 and hop out and open up with your bolters.. Interesting idea with the oblit bodyguard btw..

Oh and I don't know when bolters or bolt pistols would ever be useful.. Autocannons, missles, and heavy bolters would be useful for sure, its a shame they dont have them..

Abaddon and termi lords can join units of oblits?

That's a bit of genius!

1st - I agree w/ the Abby/Typhus idea...its great.

I think the one thing about raptors that is great is the fear they bring to the table. The 12" movement makes alot of people scared of them. But I think they have the same "problem" as Zerkers. I use quotations cause its debatable. Its all about numbers. I've now gone with around 8 Zerkers because they won't whip out a squad on the first turn charge, which makes their assault block LOS and then hopefully leaves you free to move min your next turn.

ghastli wrote:
when i say "guns" i mean bolters AND bolt pistols, making them more flexible than one or the other

Yes, having bolters to shoot 12" farther would make them more flexible, but standing and shooting at 24" isn't what raptors or any other assault unit is supposed to do. It really isn't what csms are supposed to be doing either most of the time.

ghastli wrote:
There are sooo many units in chaos that have access to rhinos, seeing as a majority of the the units are in power armor..

completely avoided the point

ghastli wrote:
Flimsy? Yeah i guess AV11 is kinda flimsy but it is another layer of defense between your opponent's guns and your squad of marines and it gets them where they need to be.

The point I made about rhinos being flimsy was to say that av11 is a joke and when it is immobilized/destroyed your csms are walking. Raptors are able to move great distances without relying on something the average bolter can destroy. That is not to say rhinos are bad, but having everything in a rhino(especially assault troops like berzerkers) is a major risk.

ghastli wrote:
Is versatility the only thing they have going for them? A dakka pred gets shaken one time and can't shoot for a turn, the havocs sit in one spot, facing front armor of vehicles and infantry that are able to hide or miss with their non twinlinked weapons. Oblits are versatile because they can move and shoot, they can deep strike, they have almost every weapon, i could go on...

You might want to read this again, your first and last sentences don't make sense when put together.

I can list ways to take oblits out easily and quickly as well, so I don't see the point in what you've said here. Havocs sit in one spot facing front armor of vehicles...unless they're put into a rhino with meltas. Even if they are facing front armor(just like oblits unless DS'd, which has a huge risk of you losing 225pts really fast) they are still able to devastate light vehicles and anything else aside from av14. Oblits can move and shoot? How far are these S&P oblits moving again? If you're out of LoS I don't think d6 is going to get you in LoS and if it is the havocs are guaranteed to get there in one turn.

The only twin-linked weapons oblits have are their special weapons(flamer,melta,plasmagun), which is a poor use of 75pts imo. For the same points as 2 oblits (2 TL shots) you can get a 5man squad of rhinos with 4 meltas in a rhino. Or you could get 5 havocs with 4 autocannons (8 shots str7 vs 2 TL shots? no contest) that will do better in almost every situation simply from the high strength and huge volume of shots.

Well, even in death the Rhino gives the unit a cover save and an essentiallly minor 3" disembark distance. It's not all bad, even if they go down before they move.

If they get even one movement phase, IMO they have done their job.

Raptors are able to move great distances without relying on something the average bolter can destroy

Raptors are nice to not need to rely on another unit for movement, but that's the thing, the rhino is a different unit and well worth the kill point.
It brings a laundry list of other uses besides the primary purpose of transport.

Raptors are exposed to damage 24/7 they are on the board. They don't score. They are more expensive than the loyalist equivalents. A rhino can die to a bolter shot but the conditions include:
Rear armor, Immobilized, Weapon Destroyed...
In general the rhino will be immune to str 4 guns from 75% of the sides it has.

What they have going for them is special weapon delivery on a self-sufficient platform. It has a place, but it's not concrete IMO.

Agree. Raptors present non-mech targets in predominantly mech lists. They make for easy target priority, and are essentially a slightly more expensive assault unit in an entire army of points-efficient assault units.

But isn't the mechanized thing a red herring since they can take cover behind mechanized units? It's like saying that Daemon Princes don't benefit from transports: they can move up behind them and jump out when needed, or simply exploit line-of-sight blocking cover. They are a relatively expensive assault unit, but the extra cost doesn't cover the value of their mobility, and that mobility is really valuable when the rest of the army is generally composed of Infantry assault units.