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Night Lords wrote:I use Raptors and have always found them to be one of the better units I have on the table.

I usually run them with:

8-9 Raptors
1 of which is a champ w/ fist
Icon of Chaos Glory
x2 Meltas

I see you have two flamers, but personally I think meltas are the only way to go with them (coming from someone who is pretty open minded with CSM squads). Flamers are nice but situational. Meltas allow them to destroy a transport and assault (at 18").

You have to ask yourself, if Im going to take a squad of raptors, what do they do that CSM dont?

1. They have the largest melta range in the entire army. At 18", only Oblits w/ multimelta that roll 6 to move (luck), dreads with MM (not a viable loadout), and bikes (expensive) tie the range. And even then Raptors almost completely ignore cover, meaning a building in the way is not an issue (they have 18" in a straight line).

2. They can hop over cover, completely hidden from enemy fire until they reach combat. IG obviously has some barrage, but keeping the raptors behind rhinos for the most part will keep them completely safe. Yes, you may be losing out on the run, and moving the same speed as the troops...but here is the next point...

3. They can move 12" and assault 6". They can do this by hopping over a rhino/cover, meaning they get into combat a round earlier than your rhinos. This also means your rhinos are more likely to survive since now youre tying up 1 or 2 units with your raptors. They can also be kept in reserve and protect 18" of your side, especially in the table corners deployment.

4. They can deepstrike...which is actually not a bad idea, albeit risky. If youre playing something like a gunline (IG), and you have LOS blocking terrain, you can DS them in and hop over it the next turn, assaulting the line. Its better than getting barrage'd to death.


I think theyre completely underrated. They essentially trade a rhino and scoring for jump packs points wise. If I were to run an HQ with them, I would go with a Lord and Claws to give them the edge in combat.

Hope this gives some insight.

You bring up some good points, and I've had a lot of luck with my raptors, but don't discount the melta bikers. They have a much longer melta range if you look over 2 turns: turbo-boost 24", drive 12" and shoot.

And agreed on deep strike. It's a gamble, but if you're smart, it can easily pay off. However, against a gunline, bikers look pretty good with T5 and a 3+ invuln for a turn

Halsfield wrote: The point I made about rhinos being flimsy was to say that av11 is a joke and when it is immobilized/destroyed your csms are walking. Raptors are able to move great distances without relying on something the average bolter can destroy. That is not to say rhinos are bad, but having everything in a rhino(especially assault troops like berzerkers) is a major risk.

I tend to run predominantly mech chaos lists so i'm a little biased in the CSMs in rhinos deal.. You should remember that AV11 is a little bit less of a joke with a nice little smokescreen, something raptors just dont carry around in their pockets. You have made some viable points though.

Halsfield wrote: You might want to read this again, your first and last sentences don't make sense when put together.

I was doing several things at once at the time, so when I came back and reread what I said, I felt like a little bit of an idiot... Sorry mate

Halsfield wrote: I can list ways to take oblits out easily and quickly as well, so I don't see the point in what you've said here. Havocs sit in one spot facing front armor of vehicles...unless they're put into a rhino with meltas. Even if they are facing front armor(just like oblits unless DS'd, which has a huge risk of you losing 225pts really fast) they are still able to devastate light vehicles and anything else aside from av14. Oblits can move and shoot? How far are these S&P oblits moving again? If you're out of LoS I don't think d6 is going to get you in LoS and if it is the havocs are guaranteed to get there in one turn.

The more I get in to this little debate, the harder of a time I'm having defending oblits.. I'm trying to tell myself that they're good because I really like the models and recently got several of them. One consolation that I find though is that they have somewhat dependable plasma cannons, a weapons that is kinda rare throughout the chaos codex. The only other place you can get them is on a dreadnought, and do you really trust a dreadnought with one of those?

Halsfield wrote: The only twin-linked weapons oblits have are their special weapons(flamer,melta,plasmagun), which is a poor use of 75pts imo. For the same points as 2 oblits (2 TL shots) you can get a 5man squad of rhinos with 4 meltas in a rhino. Or you could get 5 havocs with 4 autocannons (8 shots str7 vs 2 TL shots? no contest) that will do better in almost every situation simply from the high strength and huge volume of shots.

Its true that oblits are kinda pricy but their deep strike option helps them keep up with my mech chaos. I also like the variety of weapons that they have, even if it could afford to be a little wider.

But enough about the pros and cons of obliterators, this is supposed to be about raptors.. I will tend to prefer plain old chaos marines because they have more weapons (bolter, bolt pistol, close combat weapon) and they'e not 20pts a model.. Chaos marines also can be shooty or assault troops, and they're scoring, making them more well rounded imo

Scoring only matters in 2/3 of games. And of those 2/3 of objective-scoring games, you'd prefer a non-scoring units gets killed. Take the comparison of Berzerkers to Possessed, for example. Berzerks have better raw killing power but they're inefficient at holding objectives because of their lack of shooting. If you lose a unit of Possessed, then you don't lose a scoring unit. Where I play being a scoring unit is a tie-breaker when it comes to target priority. If it's an objective-based game and you have the option of either shooting the Berzerkers or shooting the Possessed, all else being equal, you shoot the Berzerkers.

That doesn't mean you take either Possessed or Berzerkers, however. It means you take both in the right proportion. Same with Raptors. They aren't Troops, and they don't compete with Chaos Space Marines for Force Organization Slots, just points.

If you're maximizing flexibility, then a unit of both is preferable, since Raptors can do some things better than Chaos Space Marines can do (mobility, 18" charge range) and likewise Chaos Space Marines can do some things better than Raptors (shooting, stamina).

Over one turn a unit of Raptors can assault a unit 18" away. Over two turns a unit of Raptors can assault a unit 30" away. The Chaos Space Marines in a Rhino get 14" if they leave the Rhino before it moves, and 26" if they disembark the second turn before the Rhino moves. That extra 4" is significant to the close combat effectiveness of the Raptors.

Over one turn a unit of Chaos Space Marines can add 14" to their effective range, and 26" over two turns if they disembark after the Rhino moved in the second turn. The Raptors will only add 12" and 24" respectively. That's if the Rhino pulls a skid at the end of its movement so that the Chaos Space Marines benefit from the 2" disembarkation distance.

However the Raptors can move 12", shoot, and then charge 6", while the Chaos Space Marines can only move 12", disembark 2", and then shoot if they disembark after the Rhino moves. If they disembark before Rhino moves, then they move 6", shoot, and then charge 6".

Chaos Space Marines win Move+Shoot
Raptors win Move+Assault
Raptors win Move+Shoot+Assault

Mind you, the Chaos Space Marine firepower for Move+Shoot has a nearly 2:1 advantage in shots thanks to their Bolters, the two units are equal in attacks when charging although the Raptors gain 4" of distance, and the Raptors are equal to Chaos Space Marines in the shooting part of Move+Shoot+Assault and gain 6" of distance for both effective shooting range and effective charge range.

That extra 6" move on the Move+Shoot+Assault really increases the relative effectiveness of Melta Guns and Flamers, weapons that rely on really close range, as the Raptors can close 6" closer, shoot within that 6" Melta range or 8" Template range, and then charge with less danger of being put out of charge range.

This is my "Fun" chaos list that I throw down with every once in a great while when I get tired of looking at my army collecting dust. (mainly cause I HATE the lash/pm spam its become)

HQ:
Abaddon

TROOPS:
Chaos Space Marine x10...............
Asp Champ....................................
Power Weapon...............................
Plasma Gun x2...............................

Chaos Space Marine x10...............
Asp Champ....................................
Power Weapon...............................
Plasma Gun x2...............................

--210--
Chaos Space Marine x10...............
Asp Champ....................................
Power Weapon...............................
Plasma Gun x2...............................

FAST ATTACK:
Chaos Raptors x5.............................
+Melta Gun x2.................................
+IOCG..............................................

Chaos Raptors x5.............................
+Melta Gun x2.................................
+IOCG..............................................

Chaos Raptors x5.............................
+Melta Gun x2.................................
+IOCG..............................................


ELITE:
Chaos Terminators x4.....................
+ Heavy Flamer..............................

Chaos Terminators x4.....................
+Heavy Flamer...............................


HEAVY SUPPORT:
Obliterator Cult x2...........................
Obliterator Cult x2...........................
Obliterator Cult x2...........................

Overall, outside WAAC TO's it does fairly well in casual play. Usually start the game with the Troops/FA on the board in standard castle. Turn 1 jump the Raps out somewhere where they wont get shoot up and is strategic, then next turn bring down the rain off the icons and lay havoc on the enemy.

I have found the Raps to fill this roll pretty well, and once they are done, or while they are doing this they can be popping tanks to boot. So they are not so much a "one trick pony".

@jp400 - I like that list. Looks very fun!

Well, I have play-tested them a bit more by this point and I must agree that fielding them in smaller units is VERY effective. I have been running them as a 5-man squad w/ a single melta (only have one model built right now) and an IoCG (I deepstrike termies and oblits a lot.) Also included in the gang is a sorcerer w/ wings, warptime, and meltabombs. They have crippled Russes and then moved on to waylay squads of Guardsmen in subsequent turns.

Are they the most dead-killy unit on the board? Of course not, but they're fun, versatile, and very dangerous if left unchecked. I appreciate the advice given at the beginning of this thread because it helped me out a great deal. I originally ran them in a 10-man squad and they just got blasted way too fast. I guess they are "less threatening" in smaller quantities. The best part about them is that I don't mind if they draw fire because my Rhinos are fast approaching! Either way - I win....