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Just what it says. Can ork big gunz deploy on the second or third floor of a ruin? Page 83 of the rule book says that they can not move onto the upper floors. But can they be deployed there? I say no - how can they be deployed there if they can not move there? Ork player says yes. Thoughts?

EYIG

Embrace your inner geek wrote:Just what it says. Can ork big gunz deploy on the second or third floor of a ruin? Page 83 of the rule book says that they can not move onto the upper floors. But can they be deployed there? I say no - how can they be deployed there if they can not move there? Ork player says yes. Thoughts?

Technically, they are able to deploy there, but will be unable to move between levels until they fall back, at which point the guns are removed and the remaining crew becomes infantry.

Technically yes they can unless there is some hidden info stating that they may not deploy there. Deployment isn't considered movement and from a fluff standpoint they could have built the gun up there before the battle started.

Gwar - so if the grots break and run, the cannons are automatically destroyed?

Embrace your inner geek wrote:Gwar - so if the grots break and run, the cannons are automatically destroyed?

Have a re-read of the Artillery rules

Thanks Gwar - reread and understood. It would be nice to drop a few whirlwind rounds on grots, but I guess I should worry more about the 100 of so ork boys heading my way !!

EYIG

Gwar! wrote:Technically, they are able to deploy there, but will be unable to move between levels until they fall back, at which point the guns are removed and the remaining crew becomes infantry.

Not quite. Nowhere in the artillery rules does it state that the crew become infantry after the guns are destroyed. This means the techmarine gunner for your Thunderfire Cannon cannot use a technicality to start up in a ruin but then move back down when his gun is destroyed.

wut

thebetter1 wrote:

Gwar! wrote:Technically, they are able to deploy there, but will be unable to move between levels until they fall back, at which point the guns are removed and the remaining crew becomes infantry.

Not quite. Nowhere in the artillery rules does it state that the crew become infantry after the guns are destroyed. This means the techmarine gunner for your Thunderfire Cannon cannot use a technicality to start up in a ruin but then move back down when his gun is destroyed.

THE UNIT
Artillery units consist of a number of crewman models
and the gun models themselves. These units are quite
complex as they include some vehicle models and some
infantry models.

The crew are infantry models, and thus can move on the upper levels of a ruin. What 'technicality' are you talking about?

Gorkamorka wrote:THE UNIT
Artillery units consist of a number of crewman models
and the gun models themselves. These units are quite
complex as they include some vehicle models and some
infantry models.

So you would argue that there is no such thing as an "artillery model" even though the unit type is "Artillery?"

The crew models are never actually designated as being type: Infantry. Find me a rule in any book that says crewmen are Infantry models (the one you quoted does not say this).

Gorkamorka wrote:What 'technicality' are you talking about?

Maybe the one where you exploit the fact that there are no deployment rules to deploy in an area where you could not possibly end up in during normal gameplay?

thebetter1 wrote:

Gorkamorka wrote:THE UNIT
Artillery units consist of a number of crewman models
and the gun models themselves. These units are quite
complex as they include some vehicle models and some
infantry models.

So you would argue that there is no such thing as an "artillery model" even though the unit type is "Artillery?"

Exactly, the same way that a unit of Thunderwolf Cavalry are Cavalry Models but are the unit type "Beasts & Cavalry"

thebetter1 wrote:

Gorkamorka wrote:THE UNIT
Artillery units consist of a number of crewman models
and the gun models themselves. These units are quite
complex as they include some vehicle models and some
infantry models.

So you would argue that there is no such thing as an "artillery model" even though the unit type is "Artillery?"

The crew models are never actually designated as being type: Infantry. Find me a rule in any book that says crewmen are Infantry models (the one you quoted does not say this).

Um yeah it does "some vehicle models and some infantry models." Unless your trying to state the the crew are the vehicles?

Gorkamorka wrote:What 'technicality' are you talking about?

Maybe the one where you exploit the fact that there are no deployment rules to deploy in an area where you could not possibly end up in during normal gameplay?
Deployment isn't movement (which prevents getting on buildings), it's a representation of where things are before the battle began. The rules don't cover what could possibly have moved stuff to where it is before the battle started.

For deployment sake nothing restricts you from deploying up there as deployment is not defined as movement. As far as what the unit is classified as after the guns are gone, I'm too lazy to dig into that one atm.

Gwar! wrote:

thebetter1 wrote:

Gorkamorka wrote:THE UNIT
Artillery units consist of a number of crewman models
and the gun models themselves. These units are quite
complex as they include some vehicle models and some
infantry models.

So you would argue that there is no such thing as an "artillery model" even though the unit type is "Artillery?"

Exactly, the same way that a unit of Thunderwolf Cavalry are Cavalry Models but are the unit type "Beasts & Cavalry"

Of course, we're arguing a moot point here, as the crew models are still never identified as Infantry, so they can't move in the upper levels of ruins. All you have is a blanket rule saying there are infantry models in artillery units, with nothing identifying which models those are. Conversely, the gun models ARE identified as vehicles.

They are identified as infantry models by virtue of not being the vehicle models.

they can ONLY be infantry models as there are no other types of model in the mixed unit.

Kinda simple, surprised you misesd that.

nosferatu1001 wrote:They are identified as infantry models by virtue of not being the vehicle models.

they can ONLY be infantry models as there are no other types of model in the mixed unit.

Kinda simple, surprised you misesd that.

According to the Space Marine codex on page 142, the unit type for a Thunderfire Cannon is Artillery. Therefore, the Techmarine Gunner is an Artillery model, having no other specifically mentioned unit type. As much as you would like to pretend that Artillery is not a unit type, it really is.

thebetter1 wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:They are identified as infantry models by virtue of not being the vehicle models.

they can ONLY be infantry models as there are no other types of model in the mixed unit.

Kinda simple, surprised you misesd that.

According to the Space Marine codex on page 142, the unit type for a Thunderfire Cannon is Artillery. Therefore, the Techmarine Gunner is an Artillery model, having no other specifically mentioned unit type. As much as you would like to pretend that Artillery is not a unit type, it really is.

Actually, he is said to be Infantry. Try reading the Rules in the BRB

thebetter1 wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:They are identified as infantry models by virtue of not being the vehicle models.

they can ONLY be infantry models as there are no other types of model in the mixed unit.

Kinda simple, surprised you misesd that.

According to the Space Marine codex on page 142, the unit type for a Thunderfire Cannon is Artillery. Therefore, the Techmarine Gunner is an Artillery model, having no other specifically mentioned unit type. As much as you would like to pretend that Artillery is not a unit type, it really is.

Yes, it is.
That doesn't mean the techmarine isn't an infantry model, as described in the "ARTILLERY UNIT" rules I quoted above.

Gwar! wrote:

thebetter1 wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:They are identified as infantry models by virtue of not being the vehicle models.

they can ONLY be infantry models as there are no other types of model in the mixed unit.

Kinda simple, surprised you misesd that.

According to the Space Marine codex on page 142, the unit type for a Thunderfire Cannon is Artillery. Therefore, the Techmarine Gunner is an Artillery model, having no other specifically mentioned unit type. As much as you would like to pretend that Artillery is not a unit type, it really is.

Actually, he is said to be Infantry. Try reading the Rules in the BRB

We have already been through this, and you have not refuted me, therefore I am still correct that the rule does not make him Infantry. The fact that you have to tell me to read the rule that I specifically refuted shows that you aren't really reading my posts.

Gorkamorka wrote:

thebetter1 wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:They are identified as infantry models by virtue of not being the vehicle models.

they can ONLY be infantry models as there are no other types of model in the mixed unit.

Kinda simple, surprised you misesd that.

According to the Space Marine codex on page 142, the unit type for a Thunderfire Cannon is Artillery. Therefore, the Techmarine Gunner is an Artillery model, having no other specifically mentioned unit type. As much as you would like to pretend that Artillery is not a unit type, it really is.

Yes, it is.
That doesn't mean the techmarine isn't an infantry model, as described in the "ARTILLERY UNIT" rules I quoted above.

It is not once described as an infantry model. The quote you provided above says that there are Infantry models in an artillery unit, but does not say which models are Infantry. Therefore, there are some invisible Infantry models tagging along in the Artillery unit that cannot do anything because they don't really exist.

Ok so I got unlazy and looked it up. The restriction of moving in ruins is based off of model type not unit type, so infantry "models" are not restricted while vehicle "models" are. The Artillery unit classification therefor means nothing, unless I missed something that specifically states that an Artillery unit specifically can't move up ruins. You could technically therefor have the infantry models move up or down even if the vehicles are still around as long as you still stay within coherency and the vehicles themselves aren't attempting the height change.

In short, the restriction on moving up or down is placed on the model type, not the unit type. The crew are infantry models therefor they can move.

thebetter1 wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:They are identified as infantry models by virtue of not being the vehicle models.

they can ONLY be infantry models as there are no other types of model in the mixed unit.

Kinda simple, surprised you misesd that.

According to the Space Marine codex on page 142, the unit type for a Thunderfire Cannon is Artillery. Therefore, the Techmarine Gunner is an Artillery model, having no other specifically mentioned unit type. As much as you would like to pretend that Artillery is not a unit type, it really is.

And when you are specifically told that Artillery is composed of Vehicles and Infantry, and the Vehicle models are pointed out to you, what does that make the other model?

Uh, Infantry. Odd that! Its like having a bag, which you are told is made up of only oranges and apples. Now, if the apples are pointed out to you, what does that make whats left? pink grapefruit oranges?

Nice try at pretending to be obtuse...oh wait.

BlueDagger wrote:The crew are infantry models therefor they can move.

As I have shown repeatedly, they are not infantry models and therefor they cannot move. You could try reading my arguments for details on this.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

thebetter1 wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:They are identified as infantry models by virtue of not being the vehicle models.

they can ONLY be infantry models as there are no other types of model in the mixed unit.

Kinda simple, surprised you misesd that.

According to the Space Marine codex on page 142, the unit type for a Thunderfire Cannon is Artillery. Therefore, the Techmarine Gunner is an Artillery model, having no other specifically mentioned unit type. As much as you would like to pretend that Artillery is not a unit type, it really is.

Uh, Infantry. Odd that! Its like having a bag, which you are told is made up of only oranges and apples. Now, if the apples are pointed out to you, what does that make whats left? pink grapefruit oranges?

Except that the bag actually says that it holds both oranges and apples; the word "only" is just something you made up. Therefore, if the apples are pointed out, there really could be some ridiculous fruit left over, like an Artillery model.

thebetter1 wrote:

BlueDagger wrote:The crew are infantry models therefor they can move.

As I have shown repeatedly, they are not infantry models and therefor they cannot move. You could try reading my arguments for details on this.

Incorrect, they are infantry models as part of a Artillery unit. Your getting two classifications mixed up.

thebetter1 wrote:

BlueDagger wrote:The crew are infantry models therefor they can move.

As I have shown repeatedly, they are not infantry models and therefor they cannot move. You could try reading my arguments for details on this.

You haven't actually shown it a single time. Try reading your own arguments? Or maybe the rules?

BlueDagger wrote:

thebetter1 wrote:

BlueDagger wrote:The crew are infantry models therefor they can move.

As I have shown repeatedly, they are not infantry models and therefor they cannot move. You could try reading my arguments for details on this.

Incorrect, they are infantry models as part of a Artillery unit. Your getting two classifications mixed up.

No, they are not infantry models at all. Show me a rule that says they are.

Gorkamorka wrote:

thebetter1 wrote:

BlueDagger wrote:The crew are infantry models therefor they can move.

As I have shown repeatedly, they are not infantry models and therefor they cannot move. You could try reading my arguments for details on this.

You haven't actually shown it a single time.

If you are too lazy to read previous posts, I'll repeat it for you.

The quote provided shows that there are Infantry models in an artillery unit. As no specific model in the Artillery unit is actually designated as Infantry, you cannot show that any specific one of them is infantry, therefore none of them can move in the upper levels of a ruin.

Actually, you can.

THe rules say:
Artillery are made of Gun and Infantry Models.
The Gun Models are marked as guns.
Ergo, anything that isn't a gun HAS to be Infantry, saying it has no type is breaking the first rule, so you cannot say they have no type.

Gwar! wrote:Actually, you can.

THe rules say:
Artillery are made of Gun and Infantry Models.
The Gun Models are labeled as guns.
Ergo, anything that isn't a gun HAS to be Infantry, saying it has no type is breaking the first rule, so you cannot say they have no type.

Their type is Artillery.

Interestingly, there is no rule requiring that a model have only one type. Therefore, your argument could just as well be applied to the gun models, making them both vehicles and Infantry, allowing them to move up into ruins.

thebetter1 wrote:

Gwar! wrote:Actually, you can.

THe rules say:
Artillery are made of Gun and Infantry Models.
The Gun Models are labeled as guns.
Ergo, anything that isn't a gun HAS to be Infantry, saying it has no type is breaking the first rule, so you cannot say they have no type.

Their type is Artillery.

Interestingly, there is no rule requiring that a model have only one type. Therefore, your argument could just as well be applied to the gun models, making them both vehicles and Infantry, allowing them to move up into ruins.

Their Unit type is artillery, and their model type is Infanty or Vehicle. Vehicles cannot move up or down ruins. Infantry can. SO an artillery unit with no guns can. Glad you agree with us.

Gwar! wrote:

thebetter1 wrote:

Gwar! wrote:Actually, you can.

THe rules say:
Artillery are made of Gun and Infantry Models.
The Gun Models are labeled as guns.
Ergo, anything that isn't a gun HAS to be Infantry, saying it has no type is breaking the first rule, so you cannot say they have no type.

Their type is Artillery.

Interestingly, there is no rule requiring that a model have only one type. Therefore, your argument could just as well be applied to the gun models, making them both vehicles and Infantry, allowing them to move up into ruins.

Their Unit type is artillery, and their model type is Infanty or Vehicle. Vehicles cannot move up or down ruins. Infantry can. SO an artillery unit with no guns can. Glad you agree with us.

There are no specifically identified Infantry models in the unit, just a blanket statement that there are some Infantry models within it. The only consistent ways to apply this would be to say that all models, even the guns, are Infantry, or to treat none of them as Infantry, as you don't know which one is.

thebetter1 wrote:

Gwar! wrote:Actually, you can.

THe rules say:
Artillery are made of Gun and Infantry Models.
The Gun Models are labeled as guns.
Ergo, anything that isn't a gun HAS to be Infantry, saying it has no type is breaking the first rule, so you cannot say they have no type.

Their type is Artillery.

Interestingly, there is no rule requiring that a model have only one type. Therefore, your argument could just as well be applied to the gun models, making them both vehicles and Infantry, allowing them to move up into ruins.

Once again your getting mixed up between model type and unit type.

The unit is classified as an Artillery unit, in which in the Artillery rules themselves describe it as being made up of Vehicle and Infantry model types. The restriction of movement is based on model type, not unit classification.

thebetter1 wrote:There are no specifically identified Infantry models in the unit, just a blanket statement that there are some Infantry models within it. The only consistent ways to apply this would be to say that all models, even the guns, are Infantry, or to treat none of them as Infantry, as you don't know which one is.

Yes, you do know which one is which. Gun models are Vehicles, as explicitly stated. Therefore, anything else that isn't a Gun Model has to be an Infantry model