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hey guys,

I recall reading somewhere that the standard bearer is the last model removed from a unit. we tried to find this in the book, but had no luck. were we mistaken ? or maybe it is hidden away in some akward place in the book or FAQ ?

thanks for your help.

Clammy.

I don't think there is a firm rule on this. Generally rank and file models are removed until your down to unit champ, musician, and standard bearer. At that point its really owning players option. The Champion can always be singled out in hand to hand. When it comes down to there are no more rank and file, and you only have the command group, owning player picks. If there's a page quoting differently, please let me know.

Unless specifically singled out for attacks, the champion is the last model to be removed - as it s profile is different and is not RnF, it cannot be removed until there are sufficient wound on the unit to kill it.

Nos, where did you get this? I can't find where it says anything like what you are talking about. I don't see how a different profile has anythign to do with it.

Nos is right. He is targeted in combat in the same way as a character- that is, to hit him, you must direct attacks at him. The exception is that "If the unit suffers enough wounds to kill every model in it, the champion is removed together with his comrades, being after all a rank-and-file model." (p 81)

RZ

That doesn't say anything about the champ having to be the last removed though. In fact, Nos said the champ was not a RnF. The rules do not specify who is removed last.

And where does it say you can direct attacks against him like a character? There are only a few specific instances where he acts like a character, and directing attacks against him is not one of them.

Rated G wrote:That doesn't say anything about the champ having to be the last removed though. In fact, Nos said the champ was not a RnF. The rules do not specify who is removed last.

You're looking for a rule that doesn't need to be there. The champion doesn't go down unless he's targeted by an attack, with the exception of the quote I've already listed.

And where does it say you can direct attacks against him like a character?

Same page, third paragraph in the Champions section.

Big Red Rulebook wrote:Unlike standard bearers and musicians, enemy models can direct attacks against champions and kill them

RZ

I reject your reality and substitute my own.

What page is that? I'll have to highlight it during lunch.

It is the same way that you cannot wound a character unless you specifically direct attacks - if you dont direct attacks against a champion, and cause N-1 unsaved wounds where N is the unit size, you cannot affect the CHampion as you never attacked him, and the clause about having caused enough wounds doesnt kick in as you havent wiped out the unit.

This leaves the champion looking perplexed!

thanks guys. that makes sense. I'll inform the rest of my players.

On the other hand, if you aren't directing at least one attack per round against the champion, you are suffering his extra attack needlessly.

Rated G wrote:

What page is that? I'll have to highlight it during lunch.

Page 81, in the Champions section.

RZ

Vulcan wrote:On the other hand, if you aren't directing at least one attack per round against the champion, you are suffering his extra attack needlessly.

That's the truth!

Aside from the pointless champion issue- which one is removed last between the standard & musician. I've seen people try to pull the standard if they have a choice to try and avoid giving up the extra 100 points when they flee. Is that legit?

Yes I think it's legit to remove standard before musician. There are instances where you would prefer a musician anyway (e.g. wood elf wild riders generally).

You can remove trhe standard first, however you still lose the points if the unit subsequently flees....

Only if they break in the same turn they lost the standard. If they lose the standard one turn, then break the next, the standard isn't captured.

The only requirement is that the unit breaks and subsequently flees from combat, and that the winning unit pursues them. No other requirement is there.

I know it was in a FAQ somewhere (I just went looking and couldn't find it though....grrrr...).

However, in order to capture a standard, the unit must have one. If the standard bearer isn't there, the unit doesn't have a standard, thus it cannot be captured.

It isnt in either FAQ, I checked to be sure. Possibly the old 6th ed one?

Might be the old 6th one that I'm remembering, or it might be one of the army book ones (I hate it when they do stuff like that)...I checked the Vamps and the Daemons.

However, I think my logic still holds. If the banner is killed, it is no longer a unit with a banner thus the banner cannot be captured. The only way to capture the banner and kill the banner would be to wipe out the unit when it has a banner (Thus triggering the wipe-out clause)

Except it mentions the bearer dropping the banner so someone else can pick it up.

Its the same deal with units that have captured banners - you dont have to nominate a particular model to hold the banner at that point. Same logic with the original unit i believe!

Picking up the banner only refers to not normally being able to single out the banner bearer as a casaulty (As a non-assigned guy will pick it up). You don't get the bonus for the banner if the banner dies...It's now a unit without a banner.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Except it mentions the bearer dropping the banner so someone else can pick it up.

Its the same deal with units that have captured banners - you dont have to nominate a particular model to hold the banner at that point. Same logic with the original unit i believe!

The problem here, though, is that if you're removing the standard bearer, then only have the musician and/or champion left, and they're too busy being themselves to also be a standard bearer. The BRB says that the standard bearer model is removed from the unit if it breaks - leads me to think that if there is no model there, the standard can't be captured!

The BRB says that the standard bearer model is removed from the unit if it breaks - leads me to think that if there is no model there, the standard can't be captured!

That sounds illogical-blimey I'm turning into Spock
If the standard bearer is wounded and removed as can longer take part in the battle then it must surely be assumed that the Standard itself does not just disappear.
It would either be picked up by another unit member or left on the ground to be captured by the opposition?

Exactly how I saw it - and its the same way that recapturing works; no model in the unit that captured "counts" as holding the banner

Well, it does seem that the standard can dissapear. If you destroy the whole unit in combat you do not get to capture it. Only if they unit flees and you pursue, do you get to pick it up. Which tells me that there has to be a physical model there holding the standard in order for you to claim it.

"Woohoo, we totally massacred this whole unit in one round. Let's pick the standard up off the ground and take it as a trophy." Standard sprouts wings and flies away. "Dang it. Not again."

Seems silly to me. I think you should get the standard if you wipe out a unit, not just if you pursue a fleeing unit; maybe they will remedy that next edition.

If you wipe the unit out, you get the standard - Assuming they had a standard when you wiped them.

Rated G - nope, you still get the standard.

Here is a situation that doesn't seem covered though.

You are down to 2 models in your unit, a musician and a standard. You take 1 casualty in combat... you choose the standard. You then lose combat and flee, opponent pursues. Does he capture a standard or not?

Yes, if the standard dies the same turn the unit breaks.