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Except, as was stated, this ISNT a stiupulation in the rules.

All that is required is that the unit flees from combat (or is entirely killed) - nothing supports that the model must be killed in the same turn as the unit is broken.

This is different to the BSB, which is stipulated...

If the unit doesn't have a banner, it can't be captured.

Nos made a very interesting point however regarding that.

When you capture a banner, it can be recaptured by the enemy. Your models do not carry the enemy banner. How could you recapture the banner if they do not have it?

However, reading the rules on pg. 80 of the BRB the standard can only be caught if 1 of 2 things happens...

If a unit is defeated in close combat and then subsequently breaks and flees, the enemy automatically captures its standard if they pursue.

Standards are also captured if an enemy unit is completely destroyed in close combat, in which case there is no need to pursue.

To answer the original question however... Page 80:

The enemy cannot specifically attack standard bearers as he can character models. Standard bearers are not normally removed as casualties, as it is assumed that if the standard bearer is killed, another warrior will pick up the banner and take his place. Therefore, the player always removes an ordinary warrior in preference to a standard bearer, even if the ordinary warrior is not in base contact with the enemy.

So yes, the Standard bearer is one of the last 3 models to be removed potentially. Champ, Standard, Musician.

So after reading all that, the only point of contention really is what does "Subsequently" mean. Does it mean that turn, or any following turn.

Frankly, the discussion is mostly irrelevant. To avoid having this happen make sure to target the champion with an attack. If the champion is gone, then he will not be the last one removed from the unit, and instead that would fall onto the Standard bearer or musician as both state they are removed in similar fashion.

It would be highly unlikely this situation would arise where only the musician and standard bearer are left alive, and the unit does not break, so as long as you are targetting the champion with an attack, you should be fine.

Here's a question for the 'it doesn't matter if he's alive' crowd...If you take the standard as a casaulty, and only have the champ and/or musician, does the unit still get the +1 CR for having a banner?

Another thing to note...Banners CAN disappear...If you recapture a banner, but the unit that recaptured the banner is broken and pursued, you do not re-capture the extra banner.

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:

The BRB says that the standard bearer model is removed from the unit if it breaks - leads me to think that if there is no model there, the standard can't be captured!

That sounds illogical-blimey I'm turning into Spock
If the standard bearer is wounded and removed as can longer take part in the battle then it must surely be assumed that the Standard itself does not just disappear.
It would either be picked up by another unit member or left on the ground to be captured by the opposition?

I'm being a dirty RAWer here, but:

The standard doesn't disappear, but the only guy left can't pick it up (too busy banging a drum or something). It gets trampled into the ground during the scuffle of combat before the enemy gets a chance to grab it. If the musician subsequently breaks, since you can't "remove the standard bearer model", you can't capture the banner.

Would I play it this way? Probably not. Just playing devil's advocate.

Actually Manfredd, thats exactly how they describe the situation in the rulebook/fluff. The standard gets lost in the heat of battle, probably trampled and effectively meaningless in a fluff sense. Its not so much a trophy at that point.

If the situation ever came up, and the only 2 models left in the unit were a musician and a standard bearer (again, anyone who doesnt kill the champ of a unit is just making a mistake) and you only cause 1 wound, and they STILL hold... well they could kill off the standard if they like. I certainly wouldn't but to each their own. RAW they are certainly allowed to, as there is no FAQ or rule to determine whether the musician or the standard bearer go first. I still find this situation being highly unlikely though. If it does come up I would most likely be laughing too much to care whether or not I got the extra 100 VP.

Rule of thumb, always send at least 1 attack the champions way every round of combat. There is literally nothing to lose by doing so.

Hmmmmmmmmm........ interesting question about the standard. It does seem rather unfair to lose the standard in a previous round of combat, hold..... and then your opponent still gets it for running you down in the next round of combat, even though you don't get the benefit from it during that round.

A little murky, to be sure...

Exactly - the *ony* requirement is "subsequently" they flee or get destroyed. they do not put a "turn timer" on the requirement, so you are ok.

You do nto get the bonus for the standard lying on the ground because there is no standard bearer in the front rank of the unit. That is how you *get* the bonus normally, so if you don't meet this single condition you cannot gain the bonus.

However, all those rules are in the standard bearer section. No standard bearer means those rules don't apply.

I can understand the trampled underfoot arguement.
If an entire unit is routed within a single turn or two then the frantic pace could well mean the banner getting covered with corpses, trampled in the mud, shot to shreds or whatever happens in the heat of battle.

It just seems unlikely in the circumstances described in this thread where a unit has been whittled away down to the last two or three models.

TBH if I was a drummer and the last man standing facing an angry looking mob of orkses it would be my skin I would be wanting to save and not the drum's!

skyth wrote:However, all those rules are in the standard bearer section. No standard bearer means those rules don't apply.

Except there WAS a standard bearer meaning the rules-with-no-duration still apply - the standard bearer is killed *rule activates* -> subsequently unit is broken / wiped out *rule concludes*

I see where you are coming from Skythe with the question about would the unit still gain the bonus from the standard if the model was removed...

Frankly I think the discussion is moot, and as I said earlier, I tend to agree with you that if the standard was gone, then you cannot really capture it. Try to keep in mind though that by having a standard you benefit from it for every round of combat it is there (up to its disappearance). So the advantage of a standard is having a +1 to your SCR, and the penalty of having that standard is that it can be caught.

So the question posed of would you still get the bonus +1 for that round is a rather pointless question. You would have already benefitted from the standard in previous rounds, unless the entire unit was wiped out in 1 turn with only the musician left and they still held. Trying to deny your opponent the ability to capture the standard, after you used it for what it was worth just seems off to me. This is also why most people do not tend to take standards in units that wouldn't really benefit from it (HElf archers ). Well that and because those units tend to run too easily as well.

However there is nothing in the FAQ or BRB checked both (and unless I had temporary blindness I did not see anything there) that tells you how to choose between the musician and the standard bearer. The problem is for this situation to come up in an actual game would take very rare circumstances (or ). If people are concerned about 100 VP after the enemy unit lost combat with only a musician left, and managed to stick around, then I say they need to learn to have some fun in a game and stop taking it so seriously.