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I came across an possible issue with unit coherency and Independent Characters .

The situation was somthing along the lines of; A unit of infantry with an independent got shot up and took casualties & the owning player took away models from the squad which meant that the unit was no-longer in coherency. Now I cannot remember if it was just the models in-between the unit and the independent character that were removed or if there were multiple breaks in coherency. Lets assume for this situation that there were multiple breaks in coherency.

What I would like to know is (with page references); Can that Independent character now leave the squad during the movement phase. Or does that character have to re-establish unit coherency (done at the end of the movement phase) denying him the chance to leave that unit.

Thanks

Razerous wrote:I came across an possible issue with unit coherency and Independent Characters .

The situation was somthing along the lines of; A unit of infantry with an independent got shot up and took casualties & the owning player took away models from the squad which meant that the unit was no-longer in coherency. Now I cannot remember if it was just the models in-between the unit and the independent character that were removed or if there were multiple breaks in coherency. Lets assume for this situation that there were multiple breaks in coherency.

What I would like to know is (with page references); Can that Independent character now leave the squad during the movement phase. Or does that character have to re-establish unit coherency (done at the end of the movement phase) denying him the chance to leave that unit.

Thanks

That character can now choose to move away from the unit, and if he ends up more than 2", he leaves the unit. The unit must them move into coherency.

Gwar! wrote:That character can now choose to move away from the unit, and if he ends up more than 2", he leaves the unit. The unit must them move into coherency.

As I recall it was a point of some contention last time whether 'must move to restore coherency' meant the IC was forced to move to the unit or was allowed to leave if it restored coherency.
I agree with your interpretation of the rules, just figured it was worth mentioning that there was another point of view.

Gwar! wrote:

Razerous wrote:I came across an possible issue with unit coherency and Independent Characters .

The situation was somthing along the lines of; A unit of infantry with an independent got shot up and took casualties & the owning player took away models from the squad which meant that the unit was no-longer in coherency. Now I cannot remember if it was just the models in-between the unit and the independent character that were removed or if there were multiple breaks in coherency. Lets assume for this situation that there were multiple breaks in coherency.

What I would like to know is (with page references); Can that Independent character now leave the squad during the movement phase. Or does that character have to re-establish unit coherency (done at the end of the movement phase) denying him the chance to leave that unit.

Thanks

That character can now choose to move away from the unit, and if he ends up more than 2", he leaves the unit. The unit must them move into coherency.

Okay cool. What about the part where it instructs you to obey squad coherency rules whislt in the squad. So while he can leave the squad as and when he chooses, he also must follow the coherency rules which demand he do somthing else. Right?

Razerous wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

Razerous wrote:I came across an possible issue with unit coherency and Independent Characters .

The situation was somthing along the lines of; A unit of infantry with an independent got shot up and took casualties & the owning player took away models from the squad which meant that the unit was no-longer in coherency. Now I cannot remember if it was just the models in-between the unit and the independent character that were removed or if there were multiple breaks in coherency. Lets assume for this situation that there were multiple breaks in coherency.

What I would like to know is (with page references); Can that Independent character now leave the squad during the movement phase. Or does that character have to re-establish unit coherency (done at the end of the movement phase) denying him the chance to leave that unit.

Thanks

That character can now choose to move away from the unit, and if he ends up more than 2", he leaves the unit. The unit must them move into coherency.

Okay cool. What about the part where it instructs you to obey squad coherency rules whislt in the squad. So while he can leave the squad as and when he chooses, he also must follow the coherency rules which demand he do somthing else. Right?

By that logic, an IC can never choose to leave, as the coherency rules say you cannot voluntarily move out of coherency. The rules for ICs are more specific than the general rules for Unit coherency, so the IC rules win out.

Gwar! wrote:

Razerous wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

Razerous wrote:I came across an possible issue with unit coherency and Independent Characters .

The situation was somthing along the lines of; A unit of infantry with an independent got shot up and took casualties & the owning player took away models from the squad which meant that the unit was no-longer in coherency. Now I cannot remember if it was just the models in-between the unit and the independent character that were removed or if there were multiple breaks in coherency. Lets assume for this situation that there were multiple breaks in coherency.

What I would like to know is (with page references); Can that Independent character now leave the squad during the movement phase. Or does that character have to re-establish unit coherency (done at the end of the movement phase) denying him the chance to leave that unit.

Thanks

That character can now choose to move away from the unit, and if he ends up more than 2", he leaves the unit. The unit must them move into coherency.

Okay cool. What about the part where it instructs you to obey squad coherency rules whislt in the squad. So while he can leave the squad as and when he chooses, he also must follow the coherency rules which demand he do somthing else. Right?

By that logic, an IC can never choose to leave, as the coherency rules say you cannot voluntarily move out of coherency. The rules for ICs are more specific than the general rules for Unit coherency, so the IC rules win out.

That is not true. There are rules allowing an IC to leave and join units. But whilst joined to a unit, it must obey coherency rules. So you cant have it wandering 3" or 30" away from the squad for example. The 2" rule.

Same goes for regaining coherency, you gotta do it, because your a part of that broken squad. When joined to the squad, you have to obey the coherency rules which the IC ruleset which you mentioned above mentions itself. It does specify about coherency. Please read those rules if your having problems. Anything else I've missed?

You missed the rule that allows the IC to leave the unit in the movement phase by moving out of coherency.

Gwar! wrote:You missed the rule that allows the IC to leave the unit in the movement phase by moving out of coherency.

You missed the rule stating that the IC must obey coherency rules.

Being able to leave the unit in the movement phase does not in any way mean you now do not have to follow the coherency rules. It is simply an additional rule.

Except the condition is "while the IC is part of a unit" it must obey coherency rules - so if you declare the IC is moving away from the unit, it isnt then part of the unit and doesnt have to obey coherency rules.

Otherwise how do ICs ever leave units?

nosferatu1001 wrote:Except the condition is "while the IC is part of a unit" it must obey coherency rules - so if you declare the IC is moving away from the unit, it isnt then part of the unit and doesnt have to obey coherency rules.

Otherwise how do ICs ever leave units?

By leaving the unit.

The IC cannot leave in the assault phase.

The IC cannot leave whilst locked in combat.

The IC cannot leave whilst the squad is having to regain coherency. Why is this so hard to grasp.

The IC could either leave the squad. Or he could regain coherency. Which are you allowed to do (1 mark). Which must you do (2 marks).

Razerous wrote:The IC cannot leave whilst the squad is having to regain coherency.

Where is this exact line in the rulebook?

Gwar! wrote:

Razerous wrote:The IC cannot leave whilst the squad is having to regain coherency.

Where is this exact line in the rulebook?

P48, Second bullet point on the right, second line.

Coherency rules p12.

Thats pretty much the jist of my argument.

Hmm, interesting. So you are suggesting that the IC has to move back into coherency because his own rules say he has to obey the usual coherency rules. So in order to leave the unit the IC would first be required to regain coherency, and only then could he move away from the unit. If he is already out of coherency then the next bullet point doesnt help him, since he cannot move out of coherency to leave the unit because he is already out of coherency due to the combat results.

Fun stuff, heh.


Sliggoth

I would say that if an IC begins his move out of squad coherency they are not a member of that squad any more. If they wanted to rejoin the squad then they would have to move back into coherency. If not then they're free to move by themselves, and possibly join a different unit. (ofcourse being in coherency of that unit)

Oshova

Oshova wrote:I would say that if an IC begins his move out of squad coherency they are not a member of that squad any more.

The problem with that is that the IC can only leave the unit by moving out of coherency. Not simply by starting the turn out of coherency.

So, he can leave the unit by moving away from them (because the rules say so)... but before he can do so he is still a part of the squad, and as such must obey the normal rules for coherency. And the normal rules for coherency say that a squad that is out of coherency must move to regain it.


The last time this came up, what essentially clinched it was the fact that once you start to move a unit, coherency is only checked at the end of their movement. So, whilst technically the IC is a part of the unit and so is bound by the coherency rules, since the rules allow him to move away from the unit and coherency is only checked at the end of their movement, you can effectively move him wherever you like. At the end of the unit's movement, if he is back in coherency with the unit, coherency is restored and all is well. If he is out of coherency with the unit, he is no longer joined to the unit... and so coherency is restored as it applies at that point in time.


It's fuzzy, and I think there's still an argument (if only a fluff one) for forcing the IC to move back into coherency... but the rules as they stand do allow you to simply move him away instead.

But

insaniak wrote:So, whilst technically the IC is a part of the unit and so is bound by the coherency rules, since the rules allow him to move away from the unit and coherency is only checked at the end of their movement, you can effectively move him wherever you like.

Moving him wherever you like (i.e making use of his rules to allow him to move out of the squad) is not "models in the unit must be moved in such a way that they restore coherency in their next movement phase". < Sounds badly added but its a direct quote.

Those two points of view do not mesh. So while an IC could leave the unit and squad coherency would indeed be restored.. during that move there is a "must" clause preventing the IC to do otherwise.

An IC, a member of the unit whilst he is joined must move back into coherency. Moving away from the unit (Leaving the unit as per the IC rules) would directly countermand this and disregeard the rules for IC's in squads.

However it would satisfy the requirements for the UNit to be in coherency at the END of the movement phase.

Its another timing issue. Coherency is checked at the end of the phase, so as long as you have two units, 1 IC and 1 "other" at the end of the phase, in coherency within themselves, then you are ok.

nosferatu1001 wrote:However it would satisfy the requirements for the UNit to be in coherency at the END of the movement phase.

Its another timing issue. Coherency is checked at the end of the phase, so as long as you have two units, 1 IC and 1 "other" at the end of the phase, in coherency within themselves, then you are ok.

Sure. But.. Whilst coherency is checked at the end of the movement phase.. there is also that

BGB P12 wrote:"must"

in the coherency section. So the IC must not do other things etc

And the IC has the allowance that he can move away from the unit...

nosferatu1001 wrote:And the IC has the allowance that he can move away from the unit...

Yes, I know.

He also has the rule telling him to to obey coherency rules.

Razerous wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:And the IC has the allowance that he can move away from the unit...

Yes, I know.

He also has the rule telling him to to obey coherency rules.

Which means he can never leave, by your logic.

Razerous wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:And the IC has the allowance that he can move away from the unit...

Yes, I know.

He also has the rule telling him to to obey coherency rules.

And coherency is only checked at the end of the movement phase. As he CAN form a seperate unit he HAS obeyed coherency rules if the unit he left is in coherency and he is out of coherency with them.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Razerous wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:And the IC has the allowance that he can move away from the unit...

Yes, I know.

He also has the rule telling him to to obey coherency rules.

And coherency is only checked at the end of the movement phase. As he CAN form a seperate unit he HAS obeyed coherency rules if the unit he left is in coherency and he is out of coherency with them.

But whilst he is in the unit, if that unit has broken coherency, he must move back into coherency. Why do you keep ignoring that rule? I'm not talking about an IC leaving a normal standard unit here.

So for the second or third time; Yes coherency is checked at the end of the movement phase (and an IC would normally leave a squad during the movement phase) BUT there is also an instruction that ALSO must be obeyed IN ADDDITION. There are two key bits here, not just the one.

And for the 3rd time: by leaving the unit he CAN restore the unit to coherency, and thereofre HAS fulfilled the "MUST" that you are so hung up on.

Nos and gwar are 100% as usual lol ...

If he leaves and they gain coherency everything is satisfied as you dont check to see if coherency is satisfied until the end of the movement phase, at which point the ic is his own unit and has nothing to do with their coherency.

Raz, You are right, sort of. But you are not looking at the broader picture.

The IC rules say the IC must follow the coherency rules.
There are two coherency rules being looked at.
1)If out of coherency, the unit must move to get into coherency.
2)If in coherency, the unit must move to maintain that coherency.

If the IC must follow this *always*, then it can never leave the unit. Since it can only leave by being out of coherency.

Further, there is no such thing as "moving in coherency", you move, and then check for coherency. That is why the IC can ever leave a unit, since everything moves anyplace it wants, as long as when it is done, units are in coherency.
If the IC is not within 2", then it is not part of the unit, and no longer considered for part of that units coherency.

The coherency rules actually state that "the models in the unit must be moved in such a way that they restore coherency".

RAW doesnt say that the unit has to move back into coherency, just that they move to restore coherency, which an IC can indeed do by moving away and forming a new unit. Its not about moving back into coherency, its by somehow restoring coherency which is different.


Altho its been brought up that coherency is only checked at the end of movement...and that doesnt quite ring true.

The coherency rules tell us that its quite possible to lose coherency from taking casualties. And if this happens the unit must move to restore coherency. If one only checked coherency at the end of the movement phase one would never know that the unit had been out of coherency and needed to restore it. So it appears that choerency is also checked at least at the beginning of the movement phase as well.


Sliggoth

Sliggoth wrote:The coherency rules actually state that "the models in the unit must be moved in such a way that they restore coherency".

RAW doesnt say that the unit has to move back into coherency, just that they move to restore coherency, which an IC can indeed do by moving away and forming a new unit. Its not about moving back into coherency, its by somehow restoring coherency which is different.

This is it exactly. At the point where coherency is checked, the unit is in coherency because the IC has left. No rules are broken.

As I recall, the rules state that ICs can only ever leave or join units in the movement phase.

To join, the IC moves within 2" of a unit. To leave, the IC moves so that the base is more than 2" away from the unit.

Why is this even a problem? An IC CAN'T be out of coherency, because its rules state that when it is out of coherency, it is not in the unit.

EDIT: My apologies. Just remembered coherency as calculated coming out of Assaults.

Nightwatch wrote:Why is this even a problem? An IC CAN'T be out of coherency, because its rules state that when it is out of coherency, it is not in the unit.

It's seen as a problem because that's not actually what the rules say.

The IC can't leave the unit just by being out of coherency with them. The rules specifically state that he has to move out of coherency with them.

So, Turn 1: the unit takes casualties. The IC finds himself 4 inches away from the nearest model in his unit.
Start of turn 2: the unit is out of coherency. At this point in time, the IC is still a part of the unit, as he has not moved to leave it.

So the unit, at this point, must move in such a way as to restore coherency. Not a problem, as moving the IC away at this point restores coherency as he has then left the unit.


It may seem like a minor point, but it's worth keeping in mind. The IC doesn't leave the unit automatically the moment he is out of coherency with them. In the time between the unit breaking coherency and the IC actually leaving them, he is still a part of the unit and will be affected by anything that affects the unit.