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I hope you don't mind, I've been reading a lot on the forum. I really enjoy the broad opinions that the variey of players have. I was hoping to list a few questions at a time to see what anyone thinks. After some response I thought I could throw a few more questions out. This would help greatly in building my list. So here goes a few:

Tanks (LRBT), three seperate tanks or a squadron? I like the idea of three tanks equalling one KP, but very concerned about firing at the same target. Also, can you use a tank in a squadron for a cover save?

Commisars, are they worth it/a must have for unit?

Combining troops (two units of ten).

Hopefully this is the right place for these questions, sorry if it's not.

Split up tanks if you can. The bad is that they all have to fire at the same target and if you can get a side shot on one you can target all of them on the side.

Anything upto 2000 points I'd keep my LRBT seperate. Having a 50% chance to be blown up isn't worth the 'advantage' of simply being able to field three per slot. Three battlecannons per target is also slight overkill.

If you do use squadrons, keep them to squads of two, as this maximises the advantages whilst minimising the disadvantages.

Your second and third question can be answered at the same time. Generally, the more squads you combine, the more efficient (points-wise) a single Commisar is. Stubborn, Ld 9 with a re-roll will very rarely run away, so is beneficial in a large combined squad wth lots of assault weapons and power fists.

L. Wrex

Leman Russes should generally be kept seperate, unless playing higher point games. I usually put artillery into squadrons though

Commissars are only worth it if you plan to run a horde list with large combined squads and power weapons for your sergeants and commissars. Then you can beat most things in close combat and you aren't really worried about being beat in close combat. Other wise do not use them and don't combine your squads. Un-combined squads you want to lose in close combat, you want them to break and run so that you can shoot the perpetrators the following turn

Squadrons all the way.

There is no such thing as overkill.
There is only "Open fire!" and "I need to reload."

chromedog wrote:Squadrons all the way.

There is no such thing as overkill.
There is only "Open fire!" and "I need to reload."

I think this is massively wrong. Besides being hard to maneuver, and making everything fire at the same target (which often is overkill, actually) squadrons make your tanks significantly more fragile. I agree with everyone else so far - never squadron until you've fillied out your other options - exception would be vehicles <75 points: griffons, hydras, sentinels.

I would always combine units in KP games. In objective games, it might be better to deploy them as 10-20 man squads - you trade flexibility for morale (its harder to make 20 men test for shooting casualties). The exception is when you have a commissar or are using priests, Creed or Straken to pump up your guardsmens' close combat ability. All these effects benefit a large blob more than individual squads.

Separate the tanks as much as possible. At 2K or less I see no reason to run squadrons unless it's Griffons or some such.

And vehicles in the same squadron do not provide each other a cover save.

Using merged Infantry squads? Then Commissars are a must. Not using them, Commissars are maybe.

merged squads. I love 'em. IMO, the optimal size is three squads.

So far this was exactly what I was looking for. I didn't think about the fact that you would want a ten man unit to fail a morale test to fire the fooliwing turn, good point.

And the fact that a side shot for one tank would count for all tanks is a pretty big negative.

So how about Valkyrie/Vendettas in a squadron? Same applies? I'm starting to think "I-b-h-t-e" has the right idea about putting a point lid on a squadron.

With that in mind, can you horde infantry that have purchased transports? i.e. two ten man squads, two chimeras?

Valk/Vend. I'd only squadron them if I wanted to run more than three and/or wanted other units in the Fast slots.

Yes, you can merge squads that have purchased transports. Then just rujn the chimeras around as gunboats or embark someone else (Special Weapons squad maybe?) inside the Infantry squad chimera on turn 1.

I would always run my russes individualy outside of apocalypse. It makes them a lot less likely to take damage. Also 20 man guard squads kick ass.

As I see it, Vends/Valks in squadrons are even worse than leman russes in squadrons, because they are already equipped with extra armor. This makes the benefits they get from squadron-ing even fewer. All it really does is free up other FA slots and makes the transports more vulnerable. May as well keep them moving flat out if you are going to squadron them, because you're going to lose the bird to an immobilizing result anyway.

As stated Valks/Vends should not be squadroned unless you're trying to squeeze in more than three per army list. If you're running an Air Cav list, by all means squadron them in pairs and run 6, it's a pretty intimidating sight!

I'll elaborate on combined squads somewhat now; if you are playing KP it is generally advised to combine your squads as this minimises the amount of 'easy' KP your army can give away (it is exceptionally easy to kill 10 Guardsmen in a given turn, killing 20 means serious firepower diverted from other, much more important targets). Furthermore, the larger the combined squad, the more usefulness you will get out of any Commisars/Voxs you put into that squad. This is how you get one 10pt upgrade to effect 30 men, or one character to influence an entire platoon.

Combined squads also increase the efficiency of orders, as one order can effect multiple heavy/special weapons. This helps you get the most out of your PCS orders (as they only issue one per turn, bar Inspired Tactics).

However, I tend not to combine my PIS outside of KP points, as I find beng able to feed 10 men to an assault unit is much better than sacrificing 20. As stated above, do not include Commisars in 10men PIS as you want them to break in your opponent's assault so you can gun them down in your shooting phase.

L. Wrex

Okay, so far this is very helpful. So here goes two more (and don't worry I've already read enough on dakka about ogryns!):

Heavy flamer in a PCS/CCS for 20 pts, automatic hit, good AP, but for 20 pts...?

Penal Legion opposed to a infantry unit?

I use a penal legion in a valk as a cheap counter-assault unit, best used in conjunction with straken or a lord commissar. They're just fun.

20 points for the H flamer is pretty steep, I dont' use it unless I absolutely have nothing else to spend the points on.

I find that the 20pts for the heavy flamer simply isn't worth it. You can afford to equip your entire PCS with flamers for the price of that one weapon. Yes, the S is higher, but MEQ still get their armour saves and the aforementioned cost is pretty steep. Personally, I stick to standard flamers as being able to multiply all hits by four is usually more than enough to seriously test MEQ saves.

Penal legion are good fun. The most important part of their rule is that you roll for their ability BEFORE DEPLOYMENT. This is vital as, dependant upon what you get, depends on where/how you want to deploy them. If they get Gunslingers, deploy them on the table; if they get Psychopaths/Knife Fighter making them Outflank would probably ensure that they make the most of their assault-y orientated special rules.

L. Wrex

Heavy flamer, I agree witht he already stated opinions, not worth it.

Been looking at Penal Legion myself lately, more just to mix things up and because I acquired 20 of the old bomb-collared penal legion models and I want to put them on the table........... I 'think' they would be a fun unit.

- Squadrons are generally not worth it under 2K/non-apocalypse ( unless your theme is a "Tank regiment" and you really want those extra Russes ).
- Don´t use heavy flamers in infantry. Multiples of regular flamer get better results by swamping the enemy with wounds.
- Penal Legionnaires are worth trying. I regularly employ them in 1.5K+ lists as a flanking force. Cheap, scoring and Stubborn. With a CC enhancing roll, they can put some pressure on the enemy rear area.

Great point on the famer vs hvy flamer, 4 for the price of one, kind of a no brainer!

You're so lucky to get those miniatures don, I've been looking for them on ebay for a couple of months now, the most I've seen is one or two, neither of them had arms. The thing I find curious about the Penal Legion is if they had the rending knives, does that mean they could possibly take out vehicles with a knife? Also, can you start the unit in a Valkyrie, or would they have to board on turn 1?

I usually run against a tread head with 9 russes and they are completely ineffective once you get close enough. Plus the russes are the biggest point sinks in the codex, it just sucks compared to others things with the same job.

Plus the russes are the biggest point sinks in the codex, it just sucks compared to others things with the same job.

Well this is certainly a new line of thinking...

Tharbickmonoploid wrote:Great point on the famer vs hvy flamer, 4 for the price of one, kind of a no brainer!

You're so lucky to get those miniatures don, I've been looking for them on ebay for a couple of months now, the most I've seen is one or two, neither of them had arms. The thing I find curious about the Penal Legion is if they had the rending knives, does that mean they could possibly take out vehicles with a knife? Also, can you start the unit in a Valkyrie, or would they have to board on turn 1?

rending, yes, they could. ST 3 plus pen roll for the rend of 6 plus 1d3 means they can hurt most vehicles rear amor. Fortunately, my primary IG army is all old RT-era models, so arms and such are not a problem. I've still got sprues of them..........

And yes, they can start the game embarked on any non-dedicated transport.

Volkov wrote:

Plus the russes are the biggest point sinks in the codex, it just sucks compared to others things with the same job.

Well this is certainly a new line of thinking...

Actually, it's been my motto in regards to the IG tanks. On average, they need to inflict maximum casualties for four turns to make back their points. Considering how many armies can start in reserve for Turn 1, drop into regions where the vehicle can't fire, have plenty of access to anti-AV14 or anti-vehicle Assault devices (krak, melta, powerfist, etc...), this isn't always going to happen. Then consider that you can get a ridiculous number of Guardsmen for the same price.... The best way to beat IG tanks is not to concentrate on them.

I know it sounds nuts, but my regular opponent used to run russes all the time and after many games realized that their points does not justify their damage. Its meh as a tank hunter because its basically a 150pt 1 shot missile launcher and fails as an infantry killer thanks to 4+ cover saves being so easy to get.

Its all about the griffons and manticores, griffons are half the price and as effective against most armies as a battle cannon, and if you double it up its twice as effective against every non MEQ army (and terminators) and just about the same against marines. Manticores are long ranged Demolishers that also kill infantry for less.

My favorite Russ variant is the Executioner. Even with cover, 4-5 plasma templates will make a mess of any unit. The Exterminator will no doubt be a star in Spearhead.

Regular Battle Tanks are better in lower point games where their impact is more noticeable, and fewer anti-AV14 resources are available.

My executioners massacre MEQ armies (which are most of the armies out there) In one tournament I fought a space wolf player and killed 24 puppies, and the next game was against a nurgle list and killed 27 plague marines with one executioner. I don't feel like math hammering it out, but I have a sneaking suspicion that it would take more than 230 points of guardsmen to kill 27 plague marines

Skinnattittar woud be one of my toughest opponents due to the fact that the biggest reason I can see to having LRBT's in my army is to draw fire... It's massive with big guns, I should shoot at it. I figure the more shots taken at tanks, the less shots taken at troops.

So the next fun quesitons...

CCS, Camo cloaks, Carapce armor, none, one, or both?

Veteran squad: Chimera, Carapce armor (Grenadiers) none, one, or both?

Tharbickmonoploid wrote:

So the next fun quesitons...

CCS, Camo cloaks, Carapce armor, none, one, or both?

Veteran squad: Chimera, Carapce armor (Grenadiers) none, one, or both?

Chimera in both cases if possible. Provides mobility, fire support and cover.

I think the russes are still worth it. The idea that they cost more and can still be killed is true, but only against armies with loads of fast meltaguns and powerfists spread about. Playing eldar, I kind of realise that when my opponent fielded russes, I sent my fire dragons straight at them, which often did kill them, but it allowed my opponent to wreak havoc with his other units. Truly, though, the only russes worth considering in an all-rounder list are the LRBT, demolisher and executioner. The others are niche products at best.

CCS: If you choose one, choose camo, there are a lot of AP4 weapons about - you still need to fear flamers, but you can try to deal with those by careful deployment.

Vets: Chimera, no armour. If you want to slog around on foot, which is where armour would be useful, take PIS instead. If the vets are in a chimera, carapace is pretty useless - the vets will be protected at first, if the tank is destroyed they should get cover from the wreck or from a crater.

Camo-cloaks are price heavy at 30pts, and the Snare Mines do little to help. Carapace is almost just a waste, mostly considering that 4+ cover is abundant and what isn't AP4 other than standard weapons (Lasguns, Bolters, Pulseriffles, etc...)? So I wouldn't bother, especially since they should be in Chimeras or better yet, Valkyries.

Valkyries - Take them! By far the most point-worthy item in the Codex (I don't care what anyone says, they're pretty damned balanced). They're tougher than Chimeras, can carry more and better weapons, move very quickly, and can troop-poop unlike most any other vehicle.

Hellhounds - They're pretty damn good!

Sentinels - Have awesome pros! Do you want to hold down an opponent with assault? Take an armored Sentinel! That AV12 makes them tough as nails in close combat, and with the screwed up fighting vehicles rules, they're nasty little buggers! Fear the Powerfist, but otherwise, you're invulnerable! Light Sentinels are great too. Come in later with weapons to bruise up some of your opponent's back sides is always worth it.

Ogryns - Avoid them like the plague! Yeah, they can be useful, but only when they are used exactly perfectly. Otherwise, your opponent will be better off just ignoring them, as they're pretty much just a small number tar pit with a crappy armor save.

Lascannons - Take them! Relatively cheap for their punch, and your opponent will crap their pants whenever they see them (for some reason...).

Missile Launchers - The sneaky good one. Everyone underestimates Missile Launchers. At S8 AP3 or S4 Blast, you get two really good worlds for a minimum cost. Plus, your opponent will often ignore them, much to his displeasure (for some reason, my ML are much more efficient at killing MEQs than my Lascannons...). So if you don't want to shell out for a Lascannon, ML are definitely worth the alternative.

Mortars - Don't underestimate them. Ignoring Cover Saves and causing pinning won't always help you, but since they're cheap and provide a great volume of fire, they're a good way to sit on an objective and still be useful.

Storm Troopers - Hate them. Way too expensive, and way too flimsy. At best, they'll break even under perfect conditions. On average, they're a massive waste of points. Considering the price to acquire them, the points spent on them, and the fact that they're not that interesting to look at, they're just not a good unit anymore....

Skinnattittar wrote:
Missile Launchers - The sneaky good one. Everyone underestimates Missile Launchers. At S8 AP3 or S4 Blast, you get two really good worlds for a minimum cost. Plus, your opponent will often ignore them, much to his displeasure (for some reason, my ML are much more efficient at killing MEQs than my Lascannons...). So if you don't want to shell out for a Lascannon, ML are definitely worth the alternative.

I'll disagree with this. ML aren't that great. If you want a solid, single-shot anti-armour gun you're much, much better paying the extra 5pts and getting a lascannon. If, on the other hand, you want multiple high S hits that the test armour of MEQ, you're better off savng 5pts and getting an autocannon. MLs sit uncomfortably between two of arguably the best infantry guns in the Guard 'dex and don't bring anything to the table that can't be done better, for cheaper, elsewhere. They do, however, look very cool...

In answer to the OP's questions;

Carapace armour: Expensive and nullified somewhat by the abundance of 4+ cover in 5th Ed. Its very, very easy to find AP4 weaponry as well, reducing the need for this costly upgrade even further. If you want to give your enemies a nasty surprse give your Vets the Demolitions doctrine. Demo charges are fun .

Chimeras: Take them. Just do it. an AV12 bunker with two heavy weapons AND allowing 5 models to fire out of the top hatch for just 10% more than a PIS? Yes please! I'd advise to keep them naked with either a HB or a HV dependant upon whether you want to hold a position (HB) or advance (HF).

L. Wrex