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Lycaeus Wrex wrote:

Skinnattittar wrote:
Missile Launchers - The sneaky good one. Everyone underestimates Missile Launchers. At S8 AP3 or S4 Blast, you get two really good worlds for a minimum cost. Plus, your opponent will often ignore them, much to his displeasure (for some reason, my ML are much more efficient at killing MEQs than my Lascannons...). So if you don't want to shell out for a Lascannon, ML are definitely worth the alternative.

I'll disagree with this. ML aren't that great. If you want a solid, single-shot anti-armour gun you're much, much better paying the extra 5pts and getting a lascannon. If, on the other hand, you want multiple high S hits that the test armour of MEQ, you're better off savng 5pts and getting an autocannon. MLs sit uncomfortably between two of arguably the best infantry guns in the Guard 'dex and don't bring anything to the table that can't be done better, for cheaper, elsewhere. They do, however, look very cool..

Oh, undoubtedly Lascannons are the superior to ML for anti-armor, and Autocannons better for anti-medium infantry. However, 5pts adds up over a half dozen squads, and you lose any choice. ML are better than Autocannons for knocking down MEQs and making them stay down (remember, AP4 Autocannon, AP3 KML), and with anti-horde duty, the FML (Frag Missile Launcher) is more likely to land on one or more models (since it never disappears, like Autocannon shots do), making it superior in the Math Hammer than an Autocannon engaging anything but ASV4+ (Armor Save), so with abundance of CSV4+ (Cover Save), they balance out, bringing it down to Strength. Autocannon is not a bad option. With S7 it is W2+ (Wounds) way more often than the FML, but does Anti-AV (Armor Value) slightly worse than the KML (Krak Missile Launcher).

So if you're customizing a list to your fight, the LC or AC is a better option. But if you're going for a general list, you can do worse than buying the flexibility of the ML.

Skinnattittar wrote:. ML are better than Autocannons for knocking down MEQs and making them stay down (remember, AP4 Autocannon, AP3 KML), and with anti-horde duty, the FML (Frag Missile Launcher) is more likely to land on one or more models (since it never disappears, like Autocannon shots do), making it superior in the Math Hammer than an Autocannon engaging anything but ASV4+ (Armor Save), so with abundance of CSV4+ (Cover Save), they balance out, bringing it down to Strength. Autocannon is not a bad option. With S7 it is W2+ (Wounds) way more often than the FML, but does Anti-AV (Armor Value) slightly worse than the KML (Krak Missile Launcher).

And that is where you are wrong. There's little difference in the damage output vs. Space Marines (in the open, the missile launcher is slightly better; in cover, the autocannon is), the two guns are about identical against AV12, and the autocannon is far and away superior against AV11 and 10 (the ML's damage output vs. AV13 is negligible), and all other infantry. If you're going for the flexible choice, the autocannon is the best gun, especially considering it's only 10 points.

Interesting dilema. I think both of your points are valid. I had a different perspective, feel free to try and talk some sense in to me. I figured if I had heavy hitting weapons on vehicles (hopefully for anti infantry, melta guns and strakens arm that I had armor covered. Not to mention the ol' multi laser can go for trps and their transports. Autocannons would be effective in vet sqds, 3+ to hit. This leaves needing a decent ranged weapon for anti infantry. A heavy bolter get 3 shots, and with a 4+ to hit for the rest of the troops I need all the help I can get...?

I am going to have to give the ML some thought though...

Skinnattittar wrote:
Valkyries - They're tougher than Chimeras, can carry more and better weapons, move very quickly, and can troop-poop unlike most any other vehicle.

Mortars - Don't underestimate them. Ignoring Cover Saves

Agree with a lot of your post, but..............

How are AV 12 Valks 'tougher' than Chimeras. They seldom actually move flat out so that they can use all those 'more and better weapons', and when they do move flat out, a successful Immobilized result kills them. Don't get me wrong, they're nice (even tho I don't use them), just disagreeing with that particular statement.

Ummmm, mortars do not ignore cover.

Regarding the Lascannon/Missile Launcher/Autocannon debate. My personal preference for my standard all-comers list has been a 35 man platoon with 3 x inf squads with LCs, and a 35 man platoon with 3 x inf squads with ACs. Costs the same as all six with MLs and has been quite effective. With that said, I've been shifting the ACs to MLs. Main reason, Nid big bugs. Lotsa Nid lists locally, and the ACs just don't cut it. So lately it's been 3 x LC, 3 x ML.

Math Hammer!
Space Marines in Cover - Final tally of efficiency (average kills per turn):
KML - 0.2083
FML (Assuming 3 models hit average) - 0.5000
Autocannon - 0.2778

So the FML is the clear winner there. However it has a very high standard deviation, since it greatly depends on where the shot lands, how well your opponent spaces his models, terrain, etc... But it can potentially have a very high attrition rate (like a kill per turn, four to five times better than KML and AC), or a very low rate (0 if you miss completely). AC does about 33% better over the KML.

Space Marines in the open! - Same as before.
KML - 0.4167
FML - 0.5000
AC - 0.2778

FML still does the most damage, but it still wildly unpredictable. The KML shows it's gold here, being 50% better over the AC.

So vs. Space Marines, the Missile Launcher definitely appears to more than be a good match for the AC. Under the right circumstances, the FML shot can be devastating, while the under others, it can be lack-luster. The KML is a pretty good bet, better than the AC, as long as your opponent isn't in cover, and even if they are, it's still giving your a decent attrition rate.

Vehicles! This is an interesting one, so I'll break it down via AV (causing Glancing or better):
AV10 - AC 60% superior
AV11 - AC 50% superior
AV12 - AC 33% superior
AV13 - No difference!
AV14 - AC no effect, KML will Glance 0.0833/turn.

For Penetration:
AV10 - AC 50% superior
AV11 - AC 33% superior
AV12 - No Difference
AV13 - AC can not penetrate, KML will Penetrate 0.0833/turn.
AV14 - AC no effect, KML can not Penetrate.

The AC pulls ahead with it's greater volume of shots against lower AV vehicles. However against the higher AVs, the KML evens out and can actually cause damage to AV14 which the AC can not.

As I said, the AC is a good option, but is more specific than the ML. I am not (nor ever did) say that the ML was hands down a better weapon than the AC, just that it was more effectively versatile and you could do worse than taking them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

don_mondo wrote:How are AV 12 Valks 'tougher' than Chimeras. They seldom actually move flat out so that they can use all those 'more and better weapons', and when they do move flat out, a successful Immobilized result kills them. Don't get me wrong, they're nice (even tho I don't use them), just disagreeing with that particular statement.

Ummmm, mortars do not ignore cover.

The Valkyrie has AV12/12/10 and the Chimera is AV12/10/10. You don't have to move your Valkyrie it's maximum distance, but the same distance as the Chimera's max and you still get to shoot your Multi-Laser/Lascannon and Multiple Rocket Pods (with S4, Large Blast goodness). So to me it is a tougher animal.

Correct, Mortars don't ignore cover per se, but they are Barrage.

All of this is excellent, and I may continue to have questions. But with everything so far I have my first list. I am going to post it on the Army List thread. Please have a look and let me know what you think.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I have another question if anyone is sti following this thread.

If you had to choose between a medi pack or a regimenta std in a CCS with Straken, which would it be and maybe even why?

I only have two rules when it comes to 40k: Honor the Emperor, and Venerate the Re-roll.

In a game where everything is decided by a single die roll, a re-roll is the most powerful thing you can possess. I don't think I've ever fielded a CCS without both the standard and a vox caster.