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Ok, Giant attacking a monster that has regen, and gets the Thump with Club special attack.


In this instance it was a Varghulf. So, the question came up, when does he roll regeneration? Several people around the table thought the Vamp player would roll 1 Regen, and if he made it, block all 2d6 wounds that the Giant would inflict.

Several others of us, think that the regen rolls need to be made against each individual wound from the 2d6.


So, how does it work?


Giant rolls randomly and gets Thump with Club.

Vamp fails init test, but then takes 1 regen save, and if he makes it, the Giant does no damage?


OR,


Giant rolls randomly and gets Thump with Club

Vamp fails init test, but then takes a regen save for every wound inflicted on the Varghulf?



Clay

Regeneration is the same as taking a ward save, you roll for each wound suffered not against the hit. So the Varghulf would have to roll for the 2d6 wounds it takes.

What? Why do you think Ward saves work like that?

From page 31, BRB:

"Some war machines, spells or magic weapons are so destructive that if a model is hit and wounded by them, the victim doesn't lose only 1 wound, but a number of wounds equal to the roll of a D3, D6, etc... ...In such cases, roll to hit and to wound as normal and then take any armor saves and ward saves that apply. Finally, for each such wound that is not saved, roll the appropriate dice and add their results together to determine how many wounds are caused."

As regen works like a ward save, I think there is one regen roll to stop the giant's club from pulping it. If the giant was striking 2D6 times for a wound each, then I'd say regen separately, but this is pretty clearly a single blow.

RZ

So, you are saying in this case, the Varghulf is taking a ward save versus the HIT, not a wound? This is the stance a few of the guys took as well. However, no wounds are inflicted to be regenned UNTIL you roll the 2d6.


Can/do you roll regen for hits in combat now?



Clay

I would treat it as an attack that has automatically hit, and automatically wounded for 2D6 wounds. So in that sense, you are regenerating a wounding hit. Makes the most sense under the circumstances.

To say that wounds are not inflicted until the dice are rolled is kind of silly.

If something is hit and wounded by a great cannon, you know the target is taking wounds unless a ward save or regen save is passed.
If something fails an initiative test against a "Thump with club attack", you know the target is taking wounds unless a ward save or regen save is passed.

Pretty similar, and that's how I'd play it.

RZ

So, in that case, if a spell is cast at a single target with regen, and the spell says you take xd6 wounds, then you would regen one time, and negate all the wounds with that one roll?


My main concern is that by changing the way Regen works, and according to what I understand(note, I could be wrong here, please correct me if so), you take a wound, then you roll armor save, then you roll ward save, then you roll regen.


In this case, you roll initiative, if you fail, you skip armor and ward saves, and go straight to regen, and if you make it, you ignore the HIT?



To my point, the action reads that the Giant swings with his club, you make an Initiative test to avoid the hit. If you fail, you take 2d6 wounds, with no armor saves. Ok, so when would you take a ward save? Would you take 1 ward also to ignore all the wounds, then if you fail it, take a regen to avoid the wounds?



Clay

Most magic missile spells inflict a random hits at a given strength. These are clearly multiple hits, and so are saved against individually. If there's a specific example of a spell you're thinking of, feel free to throw it out there.

Ward saves and regen saves are taken in the same manner. So yes, I believe both would be taken against one single hit, in an "all or nothing" manner.

RZ

Shriveling Pox from the Lore of Nurgle is one such spell. Pavane of Slaanesh is another.


I am checking for wording on other things.



Clay

the way we play it is you take saves per wound caused. thump with club hits, target fails init, takes 6 wounds. makes 6 ward saves, fails 3, makes 3 regens, fails 1 = model looses 1 wound.

simple because things like ward saves and regen are intended to prevent / negate wounds, not hits. or at least thats how my gaming store/ group plays and understands the rules. otherwise, youd be making the saves against anything that hit, before any wounds. ie: model takes 5 hits, makes 5 ward saves, fails 3, = 2 wound rolls made, 1 of wich actually wounds = 1 wound off the target model? that seems incorrect.

so the giants thump with club....you already get a save to avoid the hit... (the init check) if you fail that, you take wounds, and then make ward/regen to ignore the wounds caused.

That's exactly how I think it should be played as well, and makes the most sense to me. Regen saves wounds, not hits.



Clay

I've always ran it (for myself) that I roll armor and ward save, and then - should both those fail - I roll regen against the D3 / D6 wounds in an appropriate number. However, I've been told consistently that I roll all three saves at once, and have changed to rolling the above "One regen nullifies a cannonball" style.

Former makes more sense in fluff terms, but later is technically the proper way to play.

Remember, this is not a cannon ball.


They work like this, shoot cannon ball, IF it inflicts a wound, target takes ward/regen save, if both are failed, that one wound multiplies to d6 wounds.


The Giant mechanism doesn't work this way. It swings, and hits automatically. The victim is given a chance to "dodge" it by passing an initiative test, if that test is failed, the model takes 2d6 wounds with no armor saves.


So they are much different.



Clay

Multiple wounds do not take effect until all saves are failed. Thus, you would only have to take one regen save. This is a multiple wound caused form one attack, so only one save is required.

pg 36 brb: "combatants that are WOUNDED have a chance to avoid suffering any damage if they are wearing armour, carrying shields, or have a ward save."

pg 96 BRB: " some creatures, such as trolls, are able to regenerate damage - thier flesh immediately healing from the most serious of wounds.
- xxxx
- regeneration saves are not ward saves, and can therfore be taken after armour saves and ward saves have been failed"

pg 64 WoC army book: thump with club: the giant picks one model and brings his club down with a single mighty strike. the target may attempt to avoid the blow by passing an initiative test (use the lowest if the model has diffrent values). If the target is struck, it TAKES 2d6 wounds with no armour save allowed....'

the giant thump with club is not a single wound multiplied into more wounds, it is a single hit that causes more then 1 wound. thier is a diffrence. IE:
pg 87 brb:

"any model struck by a cannonball takes a strength 10 hit. roll to wound as normal. no armour saving throw is permitted for wounds caused by cannons. xxxxx
ward saves can be taken as normal. Unsaved wounds cause not 1 wound, but d3 or d6 wounds, depending on the size of the cannon..."

the cannonball hits, wounds, saves made, unsaved wounds multiply. as oposed to: the giant hits, (dodge save) if failed inflict random wounds, THEN make saves. therefore, a regen save could negate the chance of multiple wounds from a cannonball on a single save, as the saves are made before the wounds are multiplied. the giants thump with club, however inflicts its wounds BEFORE saves are made, since armour/ward/regen is used to save against wounds, not hits.

the easy way to determine it is to work out how many wounds would be caused against a normal RnF unit, e.g. clan rats.

If it is 1 wound that is multiplied into D6, then one save (regen, for example) ignores the entire D6 - in other words it would only affect one model in the RnF unit, but if it failed its save it is dead thoroughly!

If 2D6 members of the unit would be affected, then you have to roll regen against EACH wound - and in 1 wound units potentially 2D6 models can be removed.

So in this case the Vargulf is required to roll regen against EACH of the 2D6 wounds.

Except that as I read it, only one rank and file would be injured in this case. Thump with club inflicts 2D6 wounds on a *single* model.

"The Giant picks one model as his target and brings down his club with a single mighty strike. The target may attempt to avoid the blow by passing an initiative test (use the lowest if the model has several different values)."

If this was swing with club (D6 hits), or jump up and down (2D6 hits), I'm with you, as those affect multiple models.

RZ

I'm in the camp of one roll. The attack only hits one model (even if it's part of a unit of ogres or something), and the rules say "single mighty strike" and "the blow" - singular. It looks like it's one hit that multiplies into 2d6 wounds. You get one save, all or nothing.

Ah right, was thinking it was the 2D6 on the unit.

yes, if only one model can be affected then only one test - if you fail it the Vargulf is probably getting pounded into the ground

Red_Zeke wrote:Except that as I read it, only one rank and file would be injured in this case. Thump with club inflicts 2D6 wounds on a *single* model.

"The Giant picks one model as his target and brings down his club with a single mighty strike. The target may attempt to avoid the blow by passing an initiative test (use the lowest if the model has several different values)."

If this was swing with club (D6 hits), or jump up and down (2D6 hits), I'm with you, as those affect multiple models.

RZ

It works differently on different sized models. However, those large creatures, have more than one wound, and is probably why its worded as such.



Clay

My interpritation of the rule is they roll one dice for the Regen.

The rule states EXACTLY "this rule confers a special regeneration save to the model which works exactly like a 4+ ward save" PAge 96 BRB

The failed initiative save is imo the roll to see if the attack wounds. Then the ward save/regen save is taken. If both of those fail THEN you can roll the 2d6 wounds.

Except thats not the case. The Initiative roll is to determine if the club HITS, then, if it hits(failed init test) it does 2d6 wounds. It doesn't do 1 wound, then if you fail all your saves it multiplies into 2d6 wounds. It hits, and if it hits, it does 2d6 wounds.



Clay

how is this not clear????
-The giant rolls his random attack = thump with club.
-pick a target. could be a rnf model, or a character or whatever (in the case of ogres or larger, since hes fighting larger models)
-the target gets an init test to AVOID THE HIT
- if the above is failed, INFLICT 2D6 WOUNDS

NOT:
the attack does 1 wound, if unsaved inflict 2d6 more.

you get regen before you apply wounds from saves. ie: inflict wounds, make armour, ward, then regen. if all above fail, loose wounds accordingly.

the giants thump with club does NOT multiply unsaved wounds into more, it cause more then 1 wound on a single hit. thier is a diffrence! if we go with your statment above, then for everything else it has to save before wound rolls. so against archers:

my archers roll 12 shots on you...i hit 8 times
you make 8 ward saves?, those fail so you now make 8 regen saves? if they still fail, i roll to wound then you maybe get armour?? seriously.... if your using a cannonball as a comparison, look at the cannonball. it states that UNSAVED WOUNDS (meaning after all saves are taken and failed) the single wound is multiplied into d3/d6. NOT "this hit from a cannonball inflicts d6 wounds per hit". against a cannonball or anything else that multiplys an unsaved WOUND INTO MORE, ie cannonball, or the hellfire sword, wich clearley states "each unsaved wound caused by the hellfire sword inflicts not 1 but d3+1 wounds" agsint that styuff yes fine, because you

- roll to hit with weapon,
-roll to wound if weapon hits
-if wounded, model makes apropiate saves, (armour, ward, regen)
- if failed model looses 1 wound,
-special ability kicks in, multiplying UNSAVED wounds into more wounds.

once again, the giants thump with club:
- giant gets his random attack and picks target. he auto hits, so no roll required.
- to counter the auto hit, the target gets a didge save. (this is special to effectivly counter the auto hitting part, and basiclly counts as the giants "to hit roll"
- if the dodge roll fails, it means the giant has hit, and therefore "passed his hit roll"
- the target then takes 2d6 wounds.
- the target may then make any applicable armour/ward/regen saves
-if any of the above saves fail, the target looses that number of wounds.


this is simple game mechanics.....and it should be clear how it works now.
cheque please.

Primarch wrote:Except thats not the case. The Initiative roll is to determine if the club HITS, then, if it hits(failed init test) it does 2d6 wounds. It doesn't do 1 wound, then if you fail all your saves it multiplies into 2d6 wounds. It hits, and if it hits, it does 2d6 wounds.



Clay

Except the roll to hit and roll to wound are the same thing.

Normal combat is Roll to hit, roll to wound, roll armor, roll ward, roll regen.

In this case the roll to hit is also the roll to wound, they just combined steps one and two. once it has been determined that the hit goes through and the wound part goes through, wards and regen are rolled, if those fail then you roll for number of wounds.

At least this is my interpritation of the rule.

Negative, there is NO roll to hit. So by your logic there is no roll to wound. So, before I roll 2d6 for wounds, what exactly are you going to regen?



Clay

Primarch wrote:Negative, there is NO roll to hit. So by your logic there is no roll to wound. So, before I roll 2d6 for wounds, what exactly are you going to regen?



Clay

The problem is your looking at it from a real world perspective, and they would need to be wounded in order to regenerate. However the RULES treat regen was a ward save.

Imagine it like this.
The giant smashes his club down, you fail to dodge so he hits, however the ward save (which is normally taken after the roll to wound btw) stops the club in a brilliant flash of magical energy.

Regen is treated as another version of a ward save. So the same thing happens. This is the way the rules are written, even though it doesnt make real world sense, this is how the rule needs to be enforced.

If you and the people at your FLGS want to regen each wound thats fine, however, according to the BRB one save would stop all attacks.

Although the language isn't super clear, I think it is pretty obvious this is one hit that causes 2d6 wounds. Therefore, you make one save against the hit. The cannon comparison fits.

How so many people can read this and come to different conclusions is what makes us an interesting species I guess.


I don't read, nor interpret it the way the 2 above posters do at ALL.


Like the example above, do you now want to roll regen saves against hits with every other attack in the game? If not, the one thing that is in common with all saves, ALL saves, is that they are taken AFTER the model is wounded. So, if you can't take a save until you are wounded, how does your interp make any sense at all. Unless of course you want to add words to the attack to fit your theory. Right now there is nothing to say, or even imply that the "hit" is also the wound roll. You are adding that in to fit your argument.

So by RAW, since saves aren't taken, nor are ward saves, nor are regen saves until after the model is wounded, then of course the model takes 2d6 wounds and then ward/regen saves are taken on a per wound basis.


Clay


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ShivanAngel wrote:

Primarch wrote:Negative, there is NO roll to hit. So by your logic there is no roll to wound. So, before I roll 2d6 for wounds, what exactly are you going to regen?



Clay

The problem is your looking at it from a real world perspective, and they would need to be wounded in order to regenerate. However the RULES treat regen was a ward save.

Imagine it like this.
The giant smashes his club down, you fail to dodge so he hits, however the ward save (which is normally taken after the roll to wound btw) stops the club in a brilliant flash of magical energy.

Regen is treated as another version of a ward save. So the same thing happens. This is the way the rules are written, even though it doesnt make real world sense, this is how the rule needs to be enforced.

If you and the people at your FLGS want to regen each wound thats fine, however, according to the BRB one save would stop all attacks.

See the above bolded part of your statement. Why are you trying to break the normal rules of the game whereby ward saves(and regen works exactly like a ward, per you and the book) are taken after a model is wounded, and changing it to fit your version of the events, instead of just following the rules for said saves?



Clay

Primarch wrote:How so many people can read this and come to different conclusions is what makes us an interesting species I guess.


I don't read, nor interpret it the way the 2 above posters do at ALL.


Like the example above, do you now want to roll regen saves against hits with every other attack in the game? If not, the one thing that is in common with all saves, ALL saves, is that they are taken AFTER the model is wounded. So, if you can't take a save until you are wounded, how does your interp make any sense at all. Unless of course you want to add words to the attack to fit your theory. Right now there is nothing to say, or even imply that the "hit" is also the wound roll. You are adding that in to fit your argument.

So by RAW, since saves aren't taken, nor are ward saves, nor are regen saves until after the model is wounded, then of course the model takes 2d6 wounds and then ward/regen saves are taken on a per wound basis.


Clay

now you are twisting the rules to fit what you are saying. It IS NOT exactly written how to handle this particular situation, so it has to be handled as similar ones. Ex cannon doing D6 wounds.

Oh, so you roll your regen when the cannon HITS the target? News to me.


For a Cannon, you pick a point, roll dice to determine where it hits, then you roll a 2nd artillery dice to determine the distance it bounces. Now, let's say it bounces onto, and hits my multi-wound hero. Then the owning player rolls a d6, IF it wounds the target, meaning anything but a roll of 1 most times, then the target player takes any ward save he may have, and providing the shot doesn't count as flaming, he then takes his regen save. After all of that, the model is wounded 1 time, but that 1 wound then multiplies by d6.


For the Giant, you take a hit, you have a chance to "doge" the hit, if you fail that, you take 2d6 wounds. What steps are missing here that are included above? I would hardly call them the same thing....




Clay


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ShivanAngel wrote:

Primarch wrote:How so many people can read this and come to different conclusions is what makes us an interesting species I guess.


I don't read, nor interpret it the way the 2 above posters do at ALL.


Like the example above, do you now want to roll regen saves against hits with every other attack in the game? If not, the one thing that is in common with all saves, ALL saves, is that they are taken AFTER the model is wounded. So, if you can't take a save until you are wounded, how does your interp make any sense at all. Unless of course you want to add words to the attack to fit your theory. Right now there is nothing to say, or even imply that the "hit" is also the wound roll. You are adding that in to fit your argument.

So by RAW, since saves aren't taken, nor are ward saves, nor are regen saves until after the model is wounded, then of course the model takes 2d6 wounds and then ward/regen saves are taken on a per wound basis.


Clay

now you are twisting the rules to fit what you are saying. It IS NOT exactly written how to handle this particular situation, so it has to be handled as similar ones. Ex cannon doing D6 wounds.

How am I twisting anything? You said yourself to handle it like other situations, well in ALL(correct me if I am wrong here, and possibly am) other situations, the model must be actually WOUNDED before it takes a ward save.



Clay

Because the roll to hit and roll to wound are sensually the same thing in this case, there is no roll to wound, just roll number of wounds. Therefore we enter a gray area with saves. It is up to player interpretation to figure out the best way to handle it. It most closely resembles a multiple wound hit from any other weapon so that is the way I think it should be resolved.





If its that much of a debate default to the typical GW how to solve a ruling issue rule. Roll a dice. He wins you do it his way, you win you do it your way.

BTW a simple google search shows this being asked on multiple forums, and the overall consensus is on regen save stops all the wounds.

Reading through some other posts that made a very good argument for one save. You are not hitting the model 2d6 times, just hitting it one time really hard, thus one ward save which equals on regen save.

Again with more research this seems to be asked on every single warhammer forum. How do you treat thump with club when considering ward or regen saves. Most people have house rules or do a dice off. Seems like this would be a good thing to put in a FAQ GW!