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How many points are they worth?

Fix these overcosted models!

You need to be a bit more specific

Valk

they are fine as is.

changes to make.

give all Psybolts as standard.

make all NFWs power weapons standard.


only price change i would do is to give them Artificer armor for +5 points.

that seems a little to overpowering ot me greyknight. 25 points for a str 6 power weapon and a ap4 bolter that ignores invul saves is a bit much. not to mention an updated shrouding

30 points perhaps?

shrouding is fine as is.

I thought that shrouding worked like old school night fighting in 4th ed and would be updated in some way cause shrouding is kinda weak right now. MAyeb they'll get rid of it alltogether I dunno. But I do love grey knights just trying to be constructive.

Psybolts standard on grey knights would make them extremely overpowered. The only way that could be balanced would be to make them 35 points. Just because they are grey knights and they are crazy good they still need to be balanced. If you wanted to give them all power weapons standard 45 points. The justicar in the current book has 1 more attack and a power weapon and he costs double a normal grey knight.

I think a much more suitable thing to do would be to make new wargear for them. Lower psycannons to 15 points. Make Grey Knights 20 points instead of 25. Change Rites of Exorcism to always having scored at least 1 wound vs daemons when it comes to damage calculation after CC (ex, score 3 wounds counts as 4, score no wounds counts as 1) and roll for assault as if in difficult ground. And do something about Daemonic Infestation.

They still would have their shrouding effect, still have psychic defense, still have true grit, still have strength 6 attacks, and 3+ armor. Sounds pretty good at a good cost to me.

mrwittwer wrote:Psybolts standard on grey knights would make them extremely overpowered. The only way that could be balanced would be to make them 35 points. Just because they are grey knights and they are crazy good they still need to be balanced. If you wanted to give them all power weapons standard 45 points. The justicar in the current book has 1 more attack and a power weapon and he costs double a normal grey knight.

I think a much more suitable thing to do would be to make new wargear for them. Lower psycannons to 15 points. Make Grey Knights 20 points instead of 25. Change Rites of Exorcism to always having scored at least 1 wound vs daemons when it comes to damage calculation after CC (ex, score 3 wounds counts as 4, score no wounds counts as 1) and roll for assault as if in difficult ground. And do something about Daemonic Infestation.

They still would have their shrouding effect, still have psychic defense, still have true grit, still have strength 6 attacks, and 3+ armor. Sounds pretty good at a good cost to me.

I agree that all powerweapons would be overpowered, but at the same time, I feel there is a flaw in your above logic. Namely that you're comparing one overcosted unit against another, even more overcosted unit. This is the same codex that you have to pay 20 points for a vet IST compared with the modern IG vet squad sergeant who you get for free.

I think shrouding should be like nightfight. I played against an IG army the other day, pitched battle, and every shot against me across the table passed shrouding. There was one shot laterally across the table from lascannons that failed, that's all. Maybe it's anecdotal, but even when you mathhammer it, 3d6 average is 10.5. Shrouding average range is 31.5. Based upon this, you can't get 50% miss chance on the board unless both armies hug the edges, which puts you outside of shooting range, and guarantees you can't ever assault without getting filled full of holes.

Also, I think that land raiders should be able to get it as an upgrade. Maybe 10-20 points. You either overcome the GK inability to deal with tanks by giving them more anti-tank, or by making their existing stuff more survivable.

Shrouding and nightfighting are EXACTLY the same currently, 3D6 times 3, but Shrouding can't be negated by accute senses.

Shrouding should be stronger, prehaps 2D6 times 3 or simply 3D6.

GK Dreadnoughts should at least get shrouding. LRs would require a bit of fluff to justify.

Grey Templar wrote:Shrouding and nightfighting are EXACTLY the same currently, 3D6 times 3, but Shrouding can't be negated by accute senses.

Shrouding should be stronger, prehaps 2D6 times 3 or simply 3D6.

GK Dreadnoughts should at least get shrouding. LRs would require a bit of fluff to justify.

Not true. Night fighting is 2D6x3, so shrouding is weaker.

I like Grey Knights as the hyper-elite faction and I don't want to see them get cheaper. They just need to get stronger for what you pay. My proposal:

1) Shrouding works like Tau Disruption Pods, 4+ cover at ranges greater than 12 inches.
2) Artificer armour standard.
3) Keep true grit.
4) Psybolts have the same profile as the weapon they're fired from. The squad can upgrade to have them for +5 points a model.

Paladin Blake wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:Shrouding and nightfighting are EXACTLY the same currently, 3D6 times 3, but Shrouding can't be negated by accute senses.

Shrouding should be stronger, prehaps 2D6 times 3 or simply 3D6.

GK Dreadnoughts should at least get shrouding. LRs would require a bit of fluff to justify.

Not true. Night fighting is 2D6x3, so shrouding is weaker.

I like Grey Knights as the hyper-elite faction and I don't want to see them get cheaper. They just need to get stronger for what you pay. My proposal:

1) Shrouding works like Tau Disruption Pods, 4+ cover at ranges greater than 12 inches.
2) Artificer armour standard.
3) Keep true grit.
4) Psybolts have the same profile as the weapon they're fired from. The squad can upgrade to have them for +5 points a model.

If you're suggesting that Grey Knights stay the same cost but get all of the 4 things that you suggest, that's so overpowered that it's not even funny.

They become Terminators. In some ways, better than Terminators! That's just ridiculous. Sorry.

:edit:
Though I COULD see Shrouding giving a 6+ cover save. Or maybe a 5+. Oh and keep them in powered armor but give the option for Artificer.

Artificer was the one I wasn't sure about. Maybe artificer just on the Justicar? He is more expensive than a terminator, after all.

Disregarding giving the squad artificer armour, I don't think changing shrouding to give a 4+ cover save is all that overpowered. And psybolts would be AP5, so they'd become even more situational.

Paladin Blake wrote:Artificer was the one I wasn't sure about. Maybe artificer just on the Justicar? He is more expensive than a terminator, after all.

Disregarding giving the squad artificer armour, I don't think changing shrouding to give a 4+ cover save is all that overpowered. And psybolts would be AP5, so they'd become even more situational.

So you get what Tau *vehicles only* pay for, except the vulnerability to melta is nixed. (one model might die, as opposed to the vehicle having a pretty good shot at being useless.)

Paladin Blake wrote:Artificer was the one I wasn't sure about. Maybe artificer just on the Justicar? He is more expensive than a terminator, after all.

Disregarding giving the squad artificer armour, I don't think changing shrouding to give a 4+ cover save is all that overpowered. And psybolts would be AP5, so they'd become even more situational.

If you made it so psybolts ignored invulnerable saves equal to what the AP of the weapon is then i would say its not overpowered. But the current psybolts ignore all invulnerables which would be extremely overpowered.

A 4+ cover is extremely overpowered. Essentially you are giving them a 4+ invulnerable for ranged attacks. And anything thats getting within 12" of greay knights had better be unloaded a lot of firepower otherwise they are going to die horribly fast. With a 4+ cover they dont even need a rhino they can walk up the center of any board and just run at their opponent. There would be no need for cover of any kind and it really just kinda breaks the rules a 5+ or a 6+ maybe as this at least gives cover a use.

What if shrouding gave a 5+ cover save and rolled 3d6 for the effective range. Triple 1's would make it a 4+ invulnerable for the turn, and triple 6's would make it fizzle as the enemy sees through it.

Also, what if Psybolts made the enemy re-roll successful cover and invulnerable saves, but kept the profile of the weapon and came for free? This would make them less OP versus daemons and more useful against other armies. I'd even go so far as to say that Psybolts should be changed to blessed weapons and everything in the army gets them with some vehicles and weapons getting a cost increase.

i say they are OP by looking their prices. (i hate them when they are my enemy )

Che-Vito wrote:So you get what Tau *vehicles only* pay for, except the vulnerability to melta is nixed. (one model might die, as opposed to the vehicle having a pretty good shot at being useless.)

I'm an advocate of an updated Tau codex, as well. My line of thinking are based around the power level of 5e codexes, not the older, weaker ones. If you still think that change is overpowered in light of Descent of Angels, the Doom of Malan'tai, and TH/SS termies, then we'll have to agree to disagree.

mrwittwer wrote:A 4+ cover is extremely overpowered. Essentially you are giving them a 4+ invulnerable for ranged attacks. And anything thats getting within 12" of greay knights had better be unloaded a lot of firepower otherwise they are going to die horribly fast (1). With a 4+ cover they dont even need a rhino they can walk up the center of any board and just run at their opponent (2). There would be no need for cover of any kind and it really just kinda breaks the rules a 5+ or a 6+ maybe as this at least gives cover a use (3).

I'll address it point-by-point.

1)Grey Knights don't have fleet. They will have to weather one round of shooting (within 12") before assault, unless they're in a Land Raider.

2)PAGKs don't have access to Rhinos, currently. They don't have the option in their codex. The only way to get them is to take them as a transport for an allied Space Marine squad, but the Grey Knights have to spend a turn getting into the vehicle.

3)There are numerous models in 40k that don't benefit at all from cover. Let's look at Legion of the Damned, for example. I don't think giving Grey Knights a situational 4+ cover save is somehow significantly more overpowered than a deep-striking (with re-rolls) 3++ unit that's generally considered to be a subpar option in its codex.

On top of that, what would a 4+ cover save actually prevent? Most anti-MEQ shooting (at least in my local metagame) is done by meltas, lasguns, boltguns, and rapid firing plasma. All of those would be unaffected.

mrwittwer wrote:If you made it so psybolts ignored invulnerable saves equal to what the AP of the weapon is then i would say its not overpowered. But the current psybolts ignore all invulnerables which would be extremely overpowered.

Very few models (other than Daemons, of course) will actually be affected by this. Most models with an invuln save to be negated have armor of at least 4+.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Norade wrote:Also, what if Psybolts made the enemy re-roll successful cover and invulnerable saves, but kept the profile of the weapon and came for free? This would make them less OP versus daemons and more useful against other armies.

I kinda like this. Free would be over the top (especially the part about cover), but +5 per model wouldn't be bad. Either that or make it standard with re-rolling successful invulns (unaffecting cover saves).

i think any changes should be made without changing the points cost on a permodel basis.

5 Grey knights cost the same as a LR with no upgrades and i like it that way.


i don't want 2+ armor. They would certaintly cost a rediclous amount of points and i have models i want to use.

i want better shrouding and anti vehicle options.

i can get a decent number of PAGKs, but the effectiveness is limited to anti-Infantry(both shooting and CC) and vehicles in CC.

if we could get rhinos many things would get better.


Shrouding giving a 4+ cover over 12" is a great idea. give me no other changes except that and they would be solid Gold.

for those who disagree It is not OP, marines seldom benifit from cover, and weapons that do deny them armor are most likely not meant for marine hunting(exceptions do exist, battle cannons, Earthshakers, demolishers, but then a cover save isn't really an issue when every hit wounds)


Psybolts shouldn't have an AP for invulns. way to complicated, simply ignoring Invulns is fine.

Very few models that have an armor that will be negated by bolters will have an invuln to begin with. ork Boyz with cybork bodies, Farseers, lesser deamons. and these are the things psybolts are meant to take down so it makes sense and its easily compensated for by the victims.


If GW continues with the codex trend lately and given the inherent awsomeness that a new GK codex will require, i wouldn't be surprised if the new dex was very powerful, but balanced.

BAs and SWs aren't cheeezy. they are just very good codexs and GKs will probably be more of the same.

I guess i believe that just because the army is called daemon hunters doesnt mean that they should be able to stomp daemons without even looking. Fluff =/= 40k rules. And i believe the army should have balance. I personally have played grey knights vs daemons with psycannons and incinerators grey knights had a clear advantage. Not to mention nemesis force weapons and all of their other anti-daemon abilities that once fixed would already give daemon hunters a clear advantage over daemons. Giving everything psybolts would make daemon hunters vs daemons ridiculously unbalanced and there would be little to no chance of a daemon player ever getting into CC with grey knights. This is why the current book only has specific weapons that disallow invulnerable saves.

I personally think 2D6 x 3 for shrouding makes more sense and still balances the game. The whole reason a 4+ cover save is imbalanced is because marines often dont benefit from cover saves. If a 4+ cover is always built in there is no downfall. At least with normal marines you can shoot them with melta, plasma and other low AP weapons. Long range weaponry like lascannons, plasma cannons, battle cannons at least have a chance with shrouding to hit. Obviously not from long range but thats the whole point, and it does extend to 36". Shrouding is better if it was updated and serves the purpose. The only real way to solve this would be play testing, but i strongly believe you would find shrouding at 2D6 x 3 would be a much better option overall.

Psybolts shouldn't have an AP for invulns. way to complicated, simply ignoring Invulns is fine.

How is this to complicated? Its the exact same thing as the current AP system except it works for both invulnerable saves and armor saves. This is like saying having an Armor Piercing value is to complicated. Giving psybolts an IP "invulnerable piercing" value would only help to increase balance. This way greater daemons arent shot down by one round of rapid fire from basic marines since they have a IP of 5. However it does still accomplish the goals it was set out to do by stomping on troops and other lesser daemons. Most things in the Chaos Daemons book have a 5+ invulnerable so only the things that really shouldnt be hurt by psybolts wont be.

I agree with you Grey Templar that Grey Knights should get rhinos and i also think that the rhino should benefit from the shrouding rule.


"edits - grammar and spelling"

well lets face it, Deamons are another sub-par army along with the Deamonhunters.

For vehicles, perhaps if a vehicle is transporting models with the GK rule then they benifit from the Shrouding rule aswell.

2d6 times 3 for shrouding would be better then what we have and wouldn't be OP so i like it.

Paladin Blake wrote:Artificer was the one I wasn't sure about. Maybe artificer just on the Justicar? He is more expensive than a terminator, after all.

Disregarding giving the squad artificer armour, I don't think changing shrouding to give a 4+ cover save is all that overpowered. And psybolts would be AP5, so they'd become even more situational.

Fair enough for the justicar.
And you do realize how good a 4+ cover save is, right? That means that you ignore half of the hits that you take. That is ridiculously good. Even a standard terminator isn't that good! Sure they have the better standard save but still.

This means that lascannons and battlecannons become stupidly ineffective. Sure you wound some but then most of them will trudge on through. In short, the grey knights will need a huge points increase. Which they don't need. Just make it a 5+ or even 6+ cover and then you will be fine.

Grey knights need survivability against pie plates. 5+ isn't that good and 6+ is just worthless. yes, i knows its better then nothing, but i would want to keep a 2d6 times 3 shrouding as well.

Grey Templar wrote:Grey knights need survivability against pie plates. 5+ isn't that good and 6+ is just worthless. yes, i knows its better then nothing, but i would want to keep a 2d6 times 3 shrouding as well.

Yeah well the whole point of Ordnance weapons is to annihilate vehicles. So sorry.

A 5+ is pretty damned good and a 6+ is still fine.

Because at the end of the day: When you get hit with a Battlecannon, that 5+ cover save starts looking REALLY good. Even a 6+.

In response to an earlier posting: Legion of the Damned wouldn't be so useless if they didn't have "Slow and Purposeful". If you want Grey Knights to be similar, without the drawlback, plus some sweet powers and weapons...then expect to pay (another) arm and leg.

In the edition of cover saves, a 4 up cover is nothing special. Especially if only affecting things at a range of 12 or more. As it is, terminators have a 2+ and 5++ or a 3++. They have better weapons the PAGK as TH or LC's are power weapons while NFW are not. We are also talking about a unit that can either be fielded in a landraider or walking. There is no cheap transport option for them. Yes a 4up cover means that they will be saved 50% of the time from a battlecannon or some other long range anti meq weapon. But they also will be walking to there or in a vehicle that gets them close enough that the the save is easily negated by moving within 12 inches. Take a look at Thousand Sons for instance. Considered by most to be a subpar unit, they have ap 3 bolters, Slow and purposeful and the 4 up invul that never goes away even in close combat but they are still cheaper then PAGK. Sure they have better close combat and the psycannon, but PAGK are supposed to be the elite. I would expect them to have a save close to that of a thousand son.

only normal PAGKs NFWs are not power weapons. Brother captains, justicars, Grandmasters and GK Terminators are all power weapons.

I'm aware of that. But they end up costing more then terminators with less survivability.

RapidFireText wrote:I'm aware of that. But they end up costing more then terminators with less survivability.

Non-sense shrouding and a 5+ cover and they dont have protection? not to mention they can deepstrike if they want. Comparing terminators and Thousand Sons to PAGK's is a bad example. Thousand sons are horribly slow and complete idiots in close combat. The only thing they have is AP3 bolters and a 4+ invulnerable which really doesnt make up for their downsides. Grey knights are S6 with their NFW's have a variety of abilities and powers. If you think about it, to negate cover for Grey Knights 12" range is needed and if you got in that range Grey Knights would be assaulting you the next turn. All of these things work directly to a Grey Knights advantage and they should cost a lot for it.

Honestly I think the Troops might be fairly costed...if there were ways to make Teleport Troops or Purgation squads into scoring units.

ductvader, when you say they're fairly costed, are you saying that they should stay the way they are, or do you think they should get an increase in ability for that cost? Whats your metagame like? In the game I mentioned the other day, I played IG. I was constantly pelted with AP 2/3, one of my land raiders was blown on the first round, my second one was done in during the second round along with my chimera carrying my melta IST. There was literally nothing I could do. Is that the kind of stuff you normally play against, or do you usually face horde type armies?