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I say they would be fairly costed if there were other ways to score...if I can deepstrike troops and score...heck yeah it's worth it. Our troops are mean...they tear just about anything up...people assault us without realizing they will most likely lose. Given more mobility...the price is right.

Players I play against constantly:

Mech Guard, Mech Guard, Mixed Guard, Foot Guard, Mech Marines, Mech Marines, Mech Wolves or BA, Drop Pod Wolves, Eldar, Tau, Daemons, Daemons, Foot Orks, Deep Strike Tyranids

I guess I am blessed with having a large variety of players in the area.

But yes...5th edition is an armored game.

Hordes?...Grey Knights can handle.

I usually only use a single Crusader with a Hammer of a GM with retinue inside. No matter who you face...this is where their attention is focused. The important thing to keep in mind in any game is making them play YOUR game. If you have adequate control over the movement of your army and your opponent's army...you just won.

Personally I think they can be fixed with a few minor changes.

Change shrouding to a 5+ cover save against all shooting from 12" or further
Make ALL PAGK's scoring units (purgations and teleporting knights can score)
Psycannon bolts available for all GK's (inc. Termies) for 5 points per model

S_P

I'm surprised noone's thought of it yet: changing the way NFW's work. If you changed that, then you'd fit the cover save and shrouding in easy. See, the thing is with the current chart for the NFW's, it's almost all the same save the odd power weapon or force weapon. I think it shoud be like this:

Rank: Grey Knight, Str bonus: +0 Type: CCW
Rank: Justicar, Str bonus: +1 Type: Power weapon
Rank: Terminator, Str bonus: +2 Type: two handed power weapon
Rank: Brother Captain, Str bonus: +2 Type: two handed power weapon
Rank: Grand Master, Str bonus: +2 Type: Two handed Force weapon

I think that balances it more, and on the part of the standard grey knights; I think it'd be fine for storm bolter, power armour, NFW with the above chart and shrouding being 2D6 x3 + 5+ cover save. IMO, that would be worth the 25pts you pay, and the Justicar would be 35-40pts. Something like that anyway. I mean, who really needs all that strength 6 on troops? Ok, so it damages their anti-Daemon capabilities, but the fluff kinda points that the standard GK's will clear the area, I.E. taking out lesser Daemons, then the Grand Master/Brother captain and Terminators take out the big stuff.

EDIT: It would also make them better on the whole, making them more like super tactical squads than super assault marine troops with non-power weapon relic blades. Makes them fit in better as troops choices, and then the Termies are a dedicated, really powerful assault unit. Also, you could do a similar chart for the shrouding, like termies get 4+ cover and Grand Master gets 3+ cover. Would really make sense, as their power increases or something. Allow them to just stand up to stuff, although the Terminators need something that can keep them alive against power weapons in assault. Maybe 4+ invun? With everything I'm talking about I realise they'd be about 60pts a model or more, but I think it would be good.

Darkvoidof40k wrote:
Rank: Grey Knight, Str bonus: +0 Type: CCW
Rank: Justicar, Str bonus: +1 Type: Power weapon

Oh noes...where did my CC anti tank go?

I have also toyed with the idea...but it doesn't make sense to tone the weapon down for troops...the only thing you can do is amp it up for Terminators and Heroes.

Why doesn'y it make sense to tone it down?...because you start stripping away stuff like S6 and they start looking like Marines...which is something I would like to avoid.

Darkvoidof40k wrote:

Rank: Grey Knight, Str bonus: +0 Type: CCW
Rank: Justicar, Str bonus: +1 Type: Power weapon
Rank: Terminator, Str bonus: +2 Type: two handed power weapon
Rank: Brother Captain, Str bonus: +2 Type: two handed power weapon
Rank: Grand Master, Str bonus: +2 Type: Two handed Force weapon

Strength 6 is what makes grey knights good. If you take that away there has gotta be a huge deduction in points which really isnt what grey knights are. Grey Knights are supposed to be super bad ass and cost a lot. The point is to make the current model's points justifiable. Another reason why grey nights are Strength 6 without power weapons is because they are made to fight daemons and power weapons dont really matter the majority of the time. And yet another reason is what greater daemons are Toughness 6 so by making everything Strength 6 it allows the big nasty Bloodthirsters or Great Unclean Ones to be taken down. And by the current book Daemons have Eternal Warrior so force weapons really dont matter. Although im sure GW will go ahead and break their own rules as usual and allow grey knights to instant kill daemons.

I dont think the biggest problem with grey knights is their strength its the fact everyone wants to make psybolts a 5 point upgrade. Which is crazily unbalanced. Even though Grey Knights are supposed to have an edge over Daemons it doesnt mean they should be able to dominate them every single game. With psybolts everywhere, a 5 man squad of grey knights could kill a greater daemon like it was never even there. There is a reason why only a few of the current grey knight weapons ignored invulnerables. This way grey knights had an advantage but it wasnt so overpowering that daemons instant lost.

ductvader wrote:

Darkvoidof40k wrote:
Rank: Grey Knight, Str bonus: +0 Type: CCW
Rank: Justicar, Str bonus: +1 Type: Power weapon

Oh noes...where did my CC anti tank go?

I have also toyed with the idea...but it doesn't make sense to tone the weapon down for troops...the only thing you can do is amp it up for Terminators and Heroes.

Why doesn'y it make sense to tone it down?...because you start stripping away stuff like S6 and they start looking like Marines...which is something I would like to avoid.

With WS5, stormbolters + ccw, fearless, str 5 powerweapon Justicar, the shrouding + 4+ or 5+ debatable cover save, they look very little like marines.

And their terminators would be much more badass than vanilla marines.. throw in some more psychic powers and hoods... my god, at this rate any new special characters will make Mephiston look fair.

Not sure how they look anything like marines except in the sense of a lot better than.

Well I am simply point out that S6 helps me rip apart most tanks...S4 ensures the need for some sort of powerfist which is very Mariney...

Now if I can give a GK trooper a Thunderhammer...sweet

Well, we haven't even started on wargear options yet, now have we?

Anyway, you could say that their weapons always wound Daemons on a 4+ unless it would normally be lower than that.

Also, does anyone else think that they should have long range heavy firepower in their squads? Atleast the PAGK's should have something that they can sit down and shoot with at armour. Not a lascannon, not a ML, not a melta, but something Grey Knightish.

But it's hard, this thread, only talking about PAGK's, as we can't really establish how we would want them to work in a new codex if we have no speculation on the rest of the 'dex. Yeah, I know that's another thread, but still.

I always thought grey knights should be among the most powerful troops in the game... stronger even than regular terminators, but more expensive as well. 20 power armor grey knights should form a complete 1000 point army, maybe with 2-3 vehicles thrown in for support.

Here are my thoughts on what the entry should look like:

Grey Knights- Squad Size 3-10
Grey Knight Stat line: WS- 5..... BS-4.... S-4....T-4....Wo-1....A-2....I-4....LD-10.... SV-2+/5+
Grey Knight Justicar.: WS- 6..... BS-4.... S-4....T-4....Wo-2....A-3....I-5....LD-10.... SV-2+/5+

Cost: 30 pts per model
Wargear: Artificer Armor, Storm bolter
Special rules: All models are psykers, true grit (storm bolters count as a CCW), deep strike

Options: May add a justicar for 50 points, May add additional squad members for 30 points per member. Any member of the squad may upgrade to psybolts for 5 points per model. Any member of the squad must choose One of the nemesis weapons listed below at the listed points cost. The Justicar may take a Justicar Power at the points cost listed below. Up to two members of the squad may take a psycannon for 30 points, or an incinerator for 10 points. These special weapons replace the storm bolter. May take a rhino transport at +35 points.

Psycannon: Str6, AP4, Rending, 36" Heavy 4 or 18" Assault 3, ignores invulnerable saves
Incinerator: Str5, AP4, Assault 1 template, ignores invulnerable saves

Nemesis Weapons:
Nemesis Halbred - 15 points - Stat changes -> +3 strength, -1 initiative, ignores armor saves, ignores invulnerable saves
Nemesis Hammer - 25 points - Stat changes-> +6 strength, always initative 1, ignores armor saves
Nemesis Sword - 10 points - Stat changes-> +2 strength, +1 initiative, ignores armor saves, successful invulnerable saves must be re-rolled

Justicar Powers:
Iron Resolve: - 45 points - Squad gains Feel no Pain
Holy Rage: - 30 points - Squad gains furious charge and counter-attack
Shield of light: - 60 points - Squad gains a 3+ invulnerable save


A sample squad could look like this:
9 Grey Knights, 1 Justicar - 320 pts
3 Nemesis Hammers- 75 pts
3 Nemesis Halbreds - 45 pts
4 Nemesis Swords - 40 pts
2 psycannons - 60 points
Iron Resolve: - 45 pts

Total cost: 585 points. Survivable, yes, but expensive as all hell. Justicar powers function like warlock powers... passive.

No artificer armour. 2+ save troops is just silly, except deathwing.

Remember everything is made less powerful than it should be in 40k, like 10 space marines should be able to take on 1500pt army, but they can't.

I think:

WS: 5 BS: 4 S: 4 T: 4 W: 1 I: 4 A: 2 LD: 10 Sv: 3+
Justicar is the same, except maybe +1 attack.
They're all fearless.
Shrouding = 2D6 x3 + 5+ cover save versus targets shooting from 12" or further away.
Use my table for nemesis force weapons, + they all have stormbolters.
25pts a model, Justicar is 35pts. Much fairer, fits in with the current way things are going and they make for a very good troops choice.

The Justicar powers are good, but they might need a bit of tweaking.
I think, for simplicities sake, all of their standard weapons, be they halbard, mace, hammer, sword or w/e should have the same rules.

I mean, last edition they were obv. doing something wrong, and yet they had them running around with Str 6 weapons, the Justicar had a one handed relic blade ffs.

Space Marines can split squads and Guard can blob...

What if you could run a combined squad of Terminators and normal Knights?

Tbh, that's a terribad idea IMO. Termies would be taking normal guys where they aren't meant to go, would stop termies deep striking (unless PAGK's get DS as well.) and it would mess up transportation in vehicles.

I think, if all PAGK's get the option to DS on the first turn standard, then that would give you your answer.

if you take a Grey Knight hero without bodyguards he can join a PAGK squad.


I think all PAGKs should get the option to DS for a nominal pts cost. 15 pts for the squad or 15 pts off a Drop pod transport.


on reducing normal PAGKs NFWs to mundane CCWs. NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO...............

that removes the biggest advantage GKs have and just makes them special space marines.

Grey Knights have never been played or used like Space Marines.

lets keep it that way.

if anything, make them 5pts more expensive and make all NFWs power weapons.

If you take them up 5pts just for power weapon, then they're the same as a normal space marine (almost) + power weapon. I'm not sure whether you're suggesting they don't get the +2 any more, but if they all had +2 strength power weapons the NFW would be 35pts alone, making for 60pt models odd.

I meant +2 Str and Power.


I think the new NFW rules should be as follows, with a 5 pt increase per model(plus whatever else changes)

PAGKs, Justicars and Terminators would be power weapons and +2 Str

Brother captains would be as above + Force weapon

Grandmasters would be +2 Str, Power and would auto cause ID regardless of toughness. a successful psychic test would make a single wound bypass eternal warrior.

Grey Templar wrote:I meant +2 Str and Power.


I think the new NFW rules should be as follows, with a 5 pt increase per model(plus whatever else changes)

PAGKs, Justicars and Terminators would be power weapons and +2 Str

Brother captains would be as above + Force weapon

Grandmasters would be +2 Str, Power and would auto cause ID regardless of toughness. a successful psychic test would make a single wound bypass eternal warrior.

This looks pretty darn good to me. I hate that daemons all have eternal warrior which means rules need to be broke to make daemon hunters work but thats how its gotta go it seems. The only thing i would change is that grandmasters bypass eternal warrior only for daemons.

Eternal Warrior doesn't help against a NFW attack.

The NFW causes the model "to be removed from play." it never says anything about Instant Death. The ONLY thing that causes Instant Death is Strength doubling Toughness for an attack.

That isn't what a NFW does, so it bypasses Eternal Warrior.

I'm afraid that a new Codex will make NFW's work like Force Weapons as described in the BRB. Just like I'm afraid the Daemonhunter Thunderhammers are going to change from ''lose all attacks'' to ''strike at Initiative 1'' and Psychic Hoods getting 24'' range. Those are 3 things I will be sad to lose...
However, the Storm Shield will probably get an upgrade, which may or may not be a good thing...

The only fixes to PAGKs I would like to see are: [keeping them at 25ish points or less, hehe]

>The Shrouding to become 2d6x3 instead of 3d6x3
>The Aegis to work against a power you've used a Hood against [essentially doubling their chances of resisting psychic powers]
>Some Str 8/9 [also melta] guns or some kind of Str 10 CC attack against vehicles [psychic or something?] purchased as an upgrade. There is really no anti-tank in this Codex except one model in a unit taking melta bombs; outside of Dreadnoughts & IST meltaguns, of course...To me it just seems a bit lacking?

Also, giving the Justicar access to Holocaust the same way as the Terminator Brother-Captain may not be too over-the-top...well, maybe.

That, and Grand Masters need Eternal Warrior & +1 WS/BS.

bad grammar edit...

in the rules i suggested for a Grey Knight dreadnought i included a few psychic powers.

one was essentially a big anti-tank power.


Spear of Faith: the Psyker forms his faith in the God Emperor into a burning shaft of white hot light that can sear through the strongest armor.

Range 18, Str10, AP1, Heavy1 lance.

Grey Templar wrote:in the rules i suggested for a Grey Knight dreadnought i included a few psychic powers.

one was essentially a big anti-tank power.


Spear of Faith: the Psyker forms his faith in the God Emperor into a burning shaft of white hot light that can sear through the strongest armor.

Range 18, Str10, AP1, Heavy1 lance.

oooooooo, nasty. But it seems that that power will more often than not destroy anything it is shot at, so may often leave the dread standing around to be shot at another turn. Shooty dreads won't need it, they're sitting back at 48".

it wouldn't just be for dreadnoughts.

GKGMs and Brother captains could buy it too.

I was thinking:

PAGK have the same stats, armor, and weapons.

They count their Stormbolters as a CCW in close combat weapon, so combined with their NFW they get 3 attacks on the charge!

The Shrouding: Change to a 5+ cover save that they are able to take at ranges of 12" or more. At ranges of 18" or more, they may take any cover save that they have in addition to their armor saves. So it's kind of like FNP except that it isn't.

And keep their cost around 26-ish points. Probably have the Justicars get a NFW that is a PW. Just a thought.

Mattlov wrote:Eternal Warrior doesn't help against a NFW attack.

The NFW causes the model "to be removed from play." it never says anything about Instant Death. The ONLY thing that causes Instant Death is Strength doubling Toughness for an attack.

That isn't what a NFW does, so it bypasses Eternal Warrior.

I also should point out this topic is of large debate and your quote is wrong. It states that models are "killed outright" and "slain outright, no matter how many wounds it has".

And Eternal Warrior states that models are immune from the instant death rule.

If we look at the instant death rule it states, "..it is killed outright and removed as a casually regardless of the number of wounds"

This to me seems clear that Daemons who have the Eternal Warrior are currently immune from NFW's. However, in the end it depends on how much of a rules nazi you wanna be about it. The intention is clear.

How about PAGK have an invunerable save only against deamons?

A psykick power that negates EW giving grandmasters a more level playing field?

perhaps not a psykick power but a new lance weapon for grey knights with long range but heavy one shot lance weapon and short range assualt weapon that isn't as strong?

mrwittwer wrote:

Mattlov wrote:Eternal Warrior doesn't help against a NFW attack.

The NFW causes the model "to be removed from play." it never says anything about Instant Death. The ONLY thing that causes Instant Death is Strength doubling Toughness for an attack.

That isn't what a NFW does, so it bypasses Eternal Warrior.

I also should point out this topic is of large debate and your quote is wrong. It states that models are "killed outright" and "slain outright, no matter how many wounds it has".

And Eternal Warrior states that models are immune from the instant death rule.

If we look at the instant death rule it states, "..it is killed outright and removed as a casually regardless of the number of wounds"

This to me seems clear that Daemons who have the Eternal Warrior are currently immune from NFW's. However, in the end it depends on how much of a rules nazi you wanna be about it. The intention is clear.

Has it been written RAW as such? No.
Has it been FAQ'd or Errata'd as such? No.
Are you mistaken then? Yes.

Has it been known GW can't write rules worth a crap? yes
Do the ever FAQ the things that matter? Rarely
Have they ever paid attention to grey knights? Its been a while
Am i mistaken? its a personal view, no.


I only stated what has been stated many times over and its a controversial rule.

The NFW as wielded by Stern or a Grand Master passes through Eternal Eternal Warrior...this isn't really even an argument.

mrwittwer wrote:Has it been known GW can't write rules worth a crap? yes
Do the ever FAQ the things that matter? Rarely
Have they ever paid attention to grey knights? Its been a while
Am i mistaken? its a personal view, no.


I only stated what has been stated many times over and its a controversial rule.

lol, no controversial at all. Eternal Warrior prevents models from the rule Instant Death. NFW and Force Weapons don't do that.
The RAW is very clear here.

What's "controversial" is that people don't like having their super-special Eternal Warrior characters/monsterous creatures killed by specialized and very expensive troops.
That's about it.