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I've been wondering if anyone has seen or played with an IG army whose Heavy Support choices have only comprised of long range artillery and if so how competitive was it?
I wanted to put this in the tactics section first before making a list and throwing it in that section, but I was wondering if they were competitive enough or not before hand.
I was thinking however thinking of including 2 Masters of O. and at least 3 vendettas to support w/e 9 arty pieces I bring.
I'm thinking that such a build's only weakness would be deep striking units or armies. Is there anyway to protect artillery from such a thing?

Thoughts?

I would drop the master of ordinance. That will pay for another guard squad which you can use to screen the artillery, which is how I find the best way to protect them from deep strikers and outflankers. Make it impossible to for them to get to the tanks without wading through guardsmen.

Yes, infact I have. Does 2 Manticores and 3 basilisks intrigue you sir? As I have reduced an ork horde to 1/4 of its starting strength in one shooting phase.

Rolled a 5 and a 6 on the manticores, should have seen my opponent try to keep his cool (he literally grunted and squirmed when he saw the dice)

They're were so many orks I couldn't miss, basilisks actually scattered A LOT, but it didn't even matter. All of them hit 15+ models. Wounding on 2's, no armour saves, its deadly.

Even more fun: We restarted as soon as that, as it wasn't fun for him the first time, and guess who got first turn again, and guess who rolled double sixes on his manticores: <------

He actually asked me to pack up my stuff and leave the table so he could fight someone else...I was pissed and laughed at him.

So yes, its viable, and terribly deadly.

As to protecting them, a BIG blob of guardsmen around all your artillery pieces is about as good as you can get.

50 Guardsmen surrounding 2 Manticores and 3 Basilisks, each squad holding an autocannon and grenade launcher (IE: Dead transport short of a LR really)

Throw in two vendettas and some veteran squads in chimeras w/ x3 meltaguns for objectives and anti-armour your 'lisks keep missing.

Haha, nice. That sounds nasty. I was thinking along the lines of 3 Vendettas, 2 Medusa, 1 Colossus with 2 Basilisks, and a Manticore actually. I used 2 proxy Colossus the other day and they easily earned their points back against Tactical Marines in cover no less which is what got me thinking this. I mean even at Str6 they will wound reg marines on 2+ and bikers on 3+ with no cover saves, and I hate bikes. they've ruined my days many a time. :(

But now that I have some living proof examples I'll have to try this out. Thanks!

Maybe instead of the second HQ and master of Ord. I'd probably throw in an inquisitor and stick him next to my artillery. I think that would ward off some cheeky deep-strikers too.

Maybe instead of the second HQ and master of Ord. I'd probably throw in an inquisitor and stick him next to my artillery. I think that would ward off some cheeky deep-strikers too.

Not so fast! Remember that you cannot pivot during the enemies shooting phase so unless they deep strike right in front of your artillery, you won't be hitting them with much force. Leman Russes can pull it off because their main gun has a 360 fire arc

Hmm, you are correct, but the guardsman and heavy weapons teams I'm surrounding these things with should be able too! That is of course as long as the deep strikers don't drift in front of my guns. In that case, let the lights show begin!


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Then again, it would be pretty risky firing large templates that can scatter back into troops so close to the deep strikers. Probably why I'd only nominate HWTs to fire at them instead.

Oh oh...Orbital strike fun!

Manticore>Basilisk If IG artillery is still around in turn 5 chances are the IG player already won the game. Given the potentially short life span of a big gun manticores tend to get more shots off per game than basilisks.

Colossus are the end all and b all of MEQ killing big guns.

Medusa are great multi purpose guns, and perfect for killing land raiders, battle wagons, and monoliths.

I like variety, and would think if you're going to do it go ahead and take a medusa, colossus, and manticore.

Volkov wrote:

Maybe instead of the second HQ and master of Ord. I'd probably throw in an inquisitor and stick him next to my artillery. I think that would ward off some cheeky deep-strikers too.

Not so fast! Remember that you cannot pivot during the enemies shooting phase so unless they deep strike right in front of your artillery, you won't be hitting them with much force. Leman Russes can pull it off because their main gun has a 360 fire arc

i'd almost prefer an Exterminator or a Hydra then. a battle cannon russ could scatter into something of yours!
use CCS or vets with meltas for heavier DSing targets. and i run an Inquisitor w/ Mystics. they come in handy.

You all are forgetting something: Manticores are AP4. They can't really reliably kill MEQ.

'Lisks are AP3 and S9, I generally enjoy the extra strength over the ignoring cover part of the Collossus, so it can do more than kill infantry.

It looks like I'm going to have to come to a compromise on what I bring. However I feel that if I bring 2 basilisks and 1 Collosus I can effectively squad those up. That one collosus will merely be there for the instances I find MEQs in cover or those blasted Eldar Rangers. I would most definitely bring the Manticore. As for the third Heavy Slot, I'm wondering if I should drop the 2-3 Medusas for 3 Hydras. I think that would go well with the Inquisitor seeing as they're on a turret. I do lose that nice Str 10 vehicle, but isn't that what the Manticore is for? Even then, I think my 3 Vendettas will provide a great deal of tank hunting support. I'm just worried about drop podding Dreds and the like and I'm sure 3 hydras will effectively extinguish such a threat. I'm gonna throw this list together and put it up on the other board. See what the other fellow Dakkites think of it.

Thanks for all your help though! I usually run Airborne vets, but I'm liking this new direction I could take my army in.

The time for inquisitors in IG armies is thankfully very short, as theirs is a codex that is rumored to be upcoming, so I wouldnt go all out and buy WH models just yet.

It's cool, I already have them from my brothers GK army, which he no longer uses


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Although, I do hope with the eventual new codex I'm still able to ally with them.

WhiteWolf01 wrote:It's cool, I already have them from my brothers GK army, which he no longer uses


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Although, I do hope with the eventual new codex I'm still able to ally with them.

Very doubtful...all rumors point towards a Grey Knight Codex...a codex that nerfs inquisitors...SOB will probably become the uber inquisiton book in the future...theres your ally

i play mech IG, use nothing but ordnance really...and it pummels most armies with no problem. I play in a circuit of about 40 players from all over my state im currently in 5th (due to the fact ive missed a tourny) and a fellow IG player is in first. What points cost are you looking at and I will try and help you out, check out the two lists ive posted because they are what I have been very successful with. If you have questions message me.

uctvader
20/Apr/2010 12:33:13 PM Subject: Re:IG Artillery Tactics
WhiteWolf01 wrote:
It's cool, I already have them from my brothers GK army, which he no longer uses


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Although, I do hope with the eventual new codex I'm still able to ally with them.


Very doubtful...all rumors point towards a Grey Knight Codex...a codex that nerfs inquisitors...SOB will probably become the uber inquisiton book in the future...theres your ally

=

I like 2 Manticores and 3 Hydras, or a Manticore and 6 Hydras. If I wasn't allowed to use Manticores but wanted some pie plates I'd use Griffons before I used Basilisks. They're dirt cheap and accurate.

True, that would be a good combination too. but I would still take a colossus in there with them. I realize its a situational artillery piece, but when I play that situation always seems to arise. And denying MEQs their cover and armor saves can be devastating. The reason why I was squadding them up with basilisks was b/c basilisks can indirect fire in addition to direct fire if need be, which would supplement a colossus well I think depending on the map I was playing on and whether I field them with los or behind some buildings. Granted I'm hesitant to lost that STR 10 AP2 blast, but I think with so much fire power coming down from some unseen place even terminators will have some problems. My only worries are those, LRs, and Deep Strikers really. But the Vendettas I'm thinking would be good at holding up Termies, and I was thinking maybe an airborn melta squad or deep striking suicide melta STs should be able to handle LRs. I hope...

Therion wrote:I like 2 Manticores and 3 Hydras, or a Manticore and 6 Hydras. If I wasn't allowed to use Manticores but wanted some pie plates I'd use Griffons before I used Basilisks. They're dirt cheap and accurate.

wouldn't that be less than useful vs. MEQ?

I love basilisks. They are the no compromise artillery piece. Everything but terminators fear the basilisk.

On a side note using hydras to shoot deep strikers sounds right up fluff alley, as they are an anti-aircraft platform first and foremost.

So what do you think are the best combination?

I use two hydras, a medusa, and a manticore. My enemies try to put down the medusa and manticores first, so usually the hydras get essentially free shots the whole game. Though in hindsight I would have added one more medusa or one more hydra

So artillery is great, especially for its alpha-strike ability. That said, like everything else in the guard, it's isn't a catch-all, or an end-all-be-all. Artillery is good for a certain set of roles which it accomplishes with phenomenal speed and power (and points efficiency). Personally, I run 2 manticores and 1 basilisk at 1500 points. I do this because I want something that can do unfortunate things to clusters of transports or actually good coutnerbattery fire (manticores), and the basilisk to do that worse, but to keep space marine players cowering in cover during deployment.

So, a few things with artillery in general:

- They are an ALPHA STRIKE unit. They show up, they do one or two turns of terrible damage when your opponent's stuff is still way over there. Once your forces get closer, you should be doing most of your damage with special weapons etc., and so artillery isn't necessary (plus, given their alpha strike damage, they're not likely to survive more than a few turns anyways). Anyone who bothers you about the lack of survivability of artillery is missing the point: artillery is to make a big splash all at once right away when the rest of your army is still focusing on movement. If you want something that makes little splashes over the course of the game, then buy a russ.

- artillery is CHEAP. Therefore, it is expendable. Most artillery will do so much damage when it hits that it only needs one hit to "make its points back". Why should it be such a deal that a manticore only gets 4 turns of fire if the amount of damage it can do in those few turns is more than a russ is likely going to do in 8 or 10? When you look at the amount of damage that both a russ and a basilisk are likely to do over the course of the game, they're likely going to be roughly equal, except that the basilisk does it for cheaper.

- artillery is SUPPORT. Artillery has one goal: to boost the firepower of your army. It isn't there to help you with deployment; it isn't there to help you with movement; and it's not there to claim objectives. As such, you have to resist the temptation to take so much artillery that you are hurting these other aspects of your army. In the case of air cav+artillery, I see a lot of danger in this. You're going to be spending a lot of points on guns, and a lot of points on movement (valkyries), which means you're NOT spending a lot of points on objective claimers. If you sacrifice your troops section down to where you only have the minimum of troops to the maximum of everything else, you're going to be running a 4th ed army that is going to get crushed in the metagame, no matter how much you batter them with artillery.

As for the best combinations, that really depends on your army. Every HS piece has a specific purpose, and that specific purpose should relate to the rest of the specific purposes of the rest of your army.

That said, think of it through the lens of what you absolutely need to have destroyed before your troops make close contact with the enemy. Take a colossus if you're terrified of the many tac squads in cover your opponent might bring on their objectives (that you don't have CC elsewhere in your army to flush out). Take a manticore if your opponent brings things like whirlwinds or hellhounds, or other vehicles that need to be killed turn ONE in order for your plan to run smoothly. Take a deathstrike if you're playing against an older player who hasn't matured out of 3rd ed yet (deathstrike + opponent castling = lol).

Personally, I like manticores because they're the best piece of long range anti tank that the guard has, while also being great and murdering huge swaths of infantry. I also like colossuses for their ability to wipe out devestator squads, and I like basilisks for their bargain basement ability to smush practically anything out in the open. I'd also like griffons if I didn't bring so dang much anti light infantry elsewhere in my army.

Otherwise, honestly, you're looking at things which are done better by other choices, and I personally wouldn't bother.

You've made some good points. Thanks for the info.

So if I wanted to take objective grabbing units I'm guessing that chimeras (not valks/vendettas) with vets are my better choice?


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Although, I've always wondered, do I need to have my vehicle be obscured if I want to benefit from camo netting or if it is out in the open do I get a 6+ cover save? It's probably an obvious question, but i've never used camo netting on vehicles before.

I am building a very large IG army that will have lots of different themes (looking like 6k points or so).

Pertaining to artillery, I will have 3 armies that will include 6 Bassies/3 Deathstrikes or 3 Manticores at 2000 points. I think those 3 combinations will be quite fun backed up with Mortar teams and other things.

This will take some time to purchase, but I am in no rush.

Well if you are really lazy and don't feel like moving any of your models...for the whole game then artillery are essential. Let me rephrase that collosus and basilisks are essential. It is possible to win an objective mission if you never move, and you do that by blasting their objective holders. Many armies rely on sending everything at you but 1 maybe two troop units to hold down their objective. Artillery allow you to engage those models even when they are out of sight. And if you hit them with multiple templates then it is likely you won't leave any survivors

Has anyone ever thrown a griffon in to a squadron with something bigger? I mean wouldn't the Accurate Bombardment and the multiple barrages go together nice, with the griffon as a 'targeting round'. Not really for vehicles but against infantry...

yes, but...

A griffon makes you more likely to roll a hit. The second blast marker has to go in such a way where it is placed OFF of the first one. This means that the second template will actually MISS because the first one was more accurate. This strategy can really only be done with lots of blast templates so that one can fold back over onto the first one.

Reread that rule again. pg 32. if you role a second hit, it can be placed touching or on top of the first one.

The real problem with the adding the griffin in with other artillery is that the griffin is relatively short range. If I put it with a Basilisk for example, whose minimum barrage range is 36 inches then I could only use the griffin tag team maneuver when the enemy is between 36 and 48 inches away.

I run 3 basilisks in my army and I've never regretted taking them. I also run 2 melta vets and 2 Plasma command squads so Terminators usually aren't on my list of things to gak bricks about.


I might swap one of them out for a Manticore or a squadron of Hydras at some point, but none of the other options seem worth the trade off.

Volkov wrote:I would drop the master of ordinance. That will pay for another guard squad which you can use to screen the artillery, which is how I find the best way to protect them from deep strikers and outflankers. Make it impossible to for them to get to the tanks without wading through guardsmen.

You get a squad for 30pts!?