Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I have came up with this tactic lately

Not sure if its gonna work or not

First I rush a wave serpent about 12 inches away from an ork boyz mob,drop the DAs and bladestorm the hell outta them

Provide that they don't have Waagh anymore,they cant assault my DA next turn,and even if they do have it,they cant come in straight with my wave serpent blocking

Or if this one doesn't work,heres another one

Double wave serpent v shape facing the enemy,with a little opening on the tip,drop the DAs,and fire hard (with things that disembarked correctly)

Thanks for reading

If it's a good ork player, then he gets free shots on your direavengers after you disembark. Shootaboyz outshoot direavengers, especially in cover. The tactic you describe is called fish of fury, and has been aruond since 4th.

Shoota boyz?Well Im in cover too due to my wave serpents right?

Yes, you do keep your cover save.

Then perfect,in case they have some rokkits that somehow hits
But they only get 60 shots max at BS2,I get 32 shots at BS4 plus some tank weapons,Iwin?

Except an ork boy is 6 points. And toughness 4. And can have 3 heavy weapons in one squad for very few points. (I believe a big shoota is like 5 points)
Dire avengers + a waveserpent costs a ton of points.
For that style to be successful, all your squads need to completely eliminate countershooting the turn they disembark. That's a tall order against orks. I'm not saying it can't be done, it's just been my experience that dire avengers popout...kill a bunch of orks, but then is within range of everything within 24". The direavengers and the serpent die, but overall casualties favor the ork player, not the eldar.

well,I never thought about how powerful ork shooting could be

Dire Avenger catapults have an 18" range; you don't need to get that close anyway.

That's why it was called fish o fury, because the tau could capitalize on it with their high strength weapons. It'd take 4 markerlights to raise BS of the FW unit to 4 and remove any cover the boyz have then they get pelted with 24 S5 AP5 shots then the warfish's shots.

But if taus can do it,why cant eldars?

On the same point level I could face off the tau FW right?

Try it out.
Taul pulse rifles have better strength and longer range, which is why it works a bit better since they have a better chance to get back in the devilfish and run away after shooting.

Pulse rifles don't have a better range after the disembark, as they are rapid fire, so can only shoot 12" when they count as moving.

If you have your wave serpent mounted on a tall enough base to see under, since you're not shooting through and intervening unit, neither unit gets a save from the wave serpent.

Yeah, I could have been clearer. Starting disembarked then loading next turn...would wind up with 12 shots plus warfish. I don't use the strategy myself anyway.

He should still try it and see if it works for him.

One problem with this is that a mob of 30 boys will often contain a Nob with a power klaw, which puts your pricy serpents at risk which may actually cost more than your avengers depending on what weapons you put on it. A Str9 hit on your rear armour is pretty nasty.

Hell, just mass str 4 attacks on rear armor are pretty nasty, even if you've moved over 6.

willydstyle wrote:If you have your wave serpent mounted on a tall enough base to see under, since you're not shooting through and intervening unit, neither unit gets a save from the wave serpent.

If your wave serpent is mounted too low, then the models disembarking won't be able to trace LOS to the enemy unit.

whitedragon wrote:

willydstyle wrote:If you have your wave serpent mounted on a tall enough base to see under, since you're not shooting through and intervening unit, neither unit gets a save from the wave serpent.

If your wave serpent is mounted too low, then the models disembarking won't be able to trace LOS to the enemy unit.

This is true as well.

Also if ran proper the Orks will have a KFF giving them a 5+ cover save. While not great will help to save soem of them. They move up Waaaaggg and kill you. If no Waaaggg then the load you with their shoots. Ork shooting in mass can kill things.

Also the cover really does nothing for you since you already have 4+ Armour saves, and their guns don't pen, with the exception of the rockets.

Ork shootas have the same range 18".

And as the DA's are a high threat unit to an ork foot horde, it wouldnt be a surprise for the ork player to focus some attention on them from a fast attack unit. I have a pair of skorcha buggies precisely for situations like this. And any biker units will probably LOVE the opportunity to get in an assualt with them- keeps them from getting shot on the eldar turn and can screw up LOS for the rest of the eldar army.

So, its a heavy hit on the opening round. But the avengers are likely to draw alot of heat since theyre in range of most of the ork army.

If you use it as a flank attack it might work, but in general its very situational.

Another thing people forget is when you disembark, you end up very very clustered up, whether you like it or not, as the access points get clogged up by the mass of infantry. Against those armies that can bring "multiblast" units (Space Wolves and Missilefangs, Orks and Grotzooka Kans, Dark Eldar and Disintegrator Ravagers, etc), then being disembarked means you're a very prime target for return-fire. A unit of 3 Killa Kans with Grotzookas, is 135 points, for 6 Strength 6 blasts! Do you really want to expose your squishy Eldar to that?

assuming you go first...

dire avengers will kill 10.66 boys.

boys return fire with 20 boys and a nob = 3.33 dead dires

points value comparison = 64 points of dead orks vs 40 points of dead dire avengers + no shooting from dire avengers.

Under optimum conditions (10 DA w/Exarch w/Twin SCata, Bladestorm + Doom + Guide + no cover) you would kill 21.65 boyz.


Without D+G, you'd kill 11.08, which really isn't good enough. Assuming a mob of 30 shoota boyz w/PK nob, they would then either shoot and kill 4.11 DA, or assault the Serpent and do 1.61 Glance and .56 Pens, which would .36 WepDestoy .36 Immobile, .09 Wrecked and .09 Explodes. This of corse assumes the Serpend competly blocks the DA from assault (which would be hard w/o giving cover or agaist a Waaagh!) and needs a 6+ to hit.

So, if you have to kill a undepleted mob in one turn, either try for D+G, or use a stratergy like this:
Eld T1 Move 2 Serpents (Serpent A=10 Storm Gardians w/2 Flamers, Serpent B=9 Scorpion w/Exarch w/Chainsabers + Doomseer) in front of an ork mob (try for just under 18" away, so they cannot charge you)
Ork T1 Boyz Mob moves up
Eld T2 Disenbark Storm Gaurdians and Scorpions. Move Serpent B (with Doomseer) along side the Ork mob, and Doom it. Use other Serpent as a shield for where your men are going to end up. Shoot + Flame Ork Mob. Assault Ork mob and you should wipe it on the charge.

Shooting:
SG's SCata = 6 dead
SS's SP = 4.62 dead
SG's Flamers = .75 dead per hit (should be hitting 6+ per template).
Assuming each Flamer hit 6, you have killed 19.62 orks.
Assault will wipe the ten that are left pretty easily, as you strike first.

From the ork player strategy you would go after the wave serpent on your turn after being shot up. If I can eliminate your transport so you can't "zoom" away from me and because of bladestorm I don't have to worry about you shooting me the next turn. Once the wave serpent is dealt with (stunned, immobilized, wrecked or explodes is what I care about) I will come at your guys. Eliminating your mobility is my first thought when going against Eldar. Also why this tactic works better for tau is for the reason of removing cover saves. 90% off the time if footslogging my units will be using KFF (unless unforeseen reasons the KFF is out of range or dead) and their transports hit back when you hit them (for a cost). Its a neat strategy its just with bladestorm if you don't wipe out the ork unit your dire avengers will be sitting ducks for 2 turns.

Lol...you cant assault out of the wave serpent,so the scorpians wont do any thing,I would still use Dire avengers,but 2 squads this time,with doom

Tony the guardsman wrote:Lol...you cant assault out of the wave serpent,so the scorpians wont do any thing,I would still use Dire avengers,but 2 squads this time,with doom

So... you're going to commit nearly 600 points to kill a 250 ish point unit of orks? Then lose at least one more turn of fire tying to re-embark to position to try it again? That just seems like its givng the rest of the orks another free turn to move closer to the rest of your army and get into an assault...

It works rather well when your entire army is set up like this, as you're eliminating one squad a turn with double bladestorm Doom+Guide. You would have to forsake shooting to get back in the Serpent anyways so that point is moot, but you should reliably kill one to two full ork squads a turn with this tactic, and if you give the Serpents Brightlances they can also tank hunt on the turn you reposition. Stelek was a fan of this, and it is written into his Eldar Tactics Article.

scuddman wrote:Except an ork boy is 6 points. And toughness 4. And can have 3 heavy weapons in one squad for very few points. (I believe a big shoota is like 5 points)
Dire avengers + a waveserpent costs a ton of points.

Mistress of minis wrote:So... you're going to commit nearly 600 points to kill a 250 ish point unit of orks? Then lose at least one more turn of fire tying to re-embark to position to try it again? That just seems like its givng the rest of the orks another free turn to move closer to the rest of your army and get into an assault...

Right. You've got to remember that you're not always going to be up against a single mob of boyz with doom and fortune and the boyz are out of cover. You're going to be fighting TWO mobz of boyz who might still have WAAAUGH and you're dooming their killa kanz that are barreling towards your farseer. In a perfect situation, this works well, and if you find yourself in this situation, this is probably the best way to do it, but as you note when the situation is less than optimal, you've got to start throwing way too many points at it just to be able to use this strategy in more and more circumstances.

Plus, the boyz can launch a multiple assault, allowing them to attack both the skimmer AND the avengers.

I go for mech lists,so I hunt the small ones and fear the big ones,which means focusing my army on one part first then move on next turn

And how does multiple charge work?6 more inch charge?

well, no, it's just that putting one unit in front of another does not guarantee that the rearward unit is immune from assault is all.

If you're bladestorm-of-fury-ing from 18" away then this doesn't matter as they can't get into assault with you anyways (unless does waaaaugh give fleet or something?), but you don't always get the luxury of engaging your opponent's units from the maximum possible effective range of your weapons.

Remember that most games last 5-6 turns. If you think you can kill enough orks only firing for 2 turns total during the game... well it's not really all that good.

There's a reason why most competitive Eldar lists have 5 man units of DAs in wave serpents.