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Today while Playing a game at my local Games workshop I Came across a Very difficult problem to solve, And this is the scenario;

Whilst during My movement Phase Talos 1 moves the full 6 inches, and ends up about 4 inches away from some chaos spawn, and 3 away from the thousand son.

Talos 2 moves 4 inches and ends up about 3 inches away from some thousand sons, as well as the spawn.

Talos 1 Wildfires during the shooting phase, but only 1 shot hits, and that is on the thousand sons.

Talos 2 wildfires during the phase as-well, 4 shots hit, 2 against the spawn, 2 on the sons.

My problem, was Weather Talos 1 could still assault The chaos Spawn, So that Talos 2 could mop up the remaining thousand sons.

The whole problem was, if you shoot something, you got'a assault it or don't assault at all rule.


The shop keeper had no idea about this due to the Firing rules of the Talos.

The rules for resolving the hits are just that - rules for resolving the hit, you still said 'I'm going to shoot at....' and as such are still bound by the restrictions this imposes on your assault choices.

Sorry, i didn't Justify the Talos firing,

Wildfire; A talos fires off wild volleys of shots rather then aiming at specific targets. When it shoots, roll to hit as normal. Then allocate the first hit scored to the nearest enemy model to the talos, the second to the second closet, and so on until all the hits (If their are any!) have been used up. Note this may mean that models from different units are being hit by the attacks. Also note that only models withing range of the weapon and its line of sight can be hit. Once all possible targets in range and within its line of sight have been hit once each Any further hits are wasted.


SO my only concern is with your response ChrisCP is that I never actualy Targeted a specific squad, the talos did, so to speak.

Except that the Talos rules define "targets" for you, meaning there are multiple potential target units.

You are not required to actually HIT in order to be bound to assault a unit, otherwise orks are in trouble! Instead the Talos rules defines each model shot at as a target, meanin gyou can easily have multiple targets for the Talos to then assault.

You still need to follow the steps for shooting 'thou which means;
1) Check line of sight & pick a target.
2) Check range.
3) Roll to hit. Roll a D6 for each shot fired. The
model’s BS determines what score they must

The fact that you may neve actually hit somthign from the squad you've shot at is irrelivent as you still need to declar the target, a talos shot just happens to move at chest height - guys always get in it's way

Chris - read the last line of Wildfire, where it defines anynoe that *can* be hit as a target.

So you declare an initial target, however anyone in range and LOS is *also* a target, meanin gyou can end up with one unit inflicting hits on multiple target units, allowing them the choice of which unit they want to assault.

Nah-ah Nos I don't agree with your interpretation here when following the shooting rules one must declare a target, then we roll to hit. The Wildfire effect doesn't kick in until after we have declared shooting and rolled to hit. It then tells us how to 'scatter' the hits. The fact that the 'wild volleys of shots rather then aiming at specific targets.' effect occurs is secondary to the fact that to shoot one must declare shooting. One of the first things that then happens is one saying I'm shooting at X then check LoS, then range ect.

Assault rule say that one must assault the unit shot at not the unit that one scored hits against, otherwise scatter pie plates... so using wildfire it is possible to shoot at a unit 12" away score the hits on guys 6" behind you and then assault the guys in front, because one had to declare them as a target to check range LoS etc - scattering fire is secondary.

Edit: Pressing the keys on my keyboard feels like assembling Lego.

The real question is why are you using Talos?

I have to agree with Nos though, the Wildfire rules make you target multiple units and you can choose which one to assault.

Of course, the DE codex is now actually older than GW's Target audience (The reprint doesn't count), so a little jiggling is needed to keep it playable.

Chris - you keep missing this part of the Talos rules:

part of Wildfire rules wrote:Once all possible targets in range and within its line of sight have been hit once each Any further hits are wasted.

Anyone in range and LOS is a target as far as Wildfire is concerned, regardless of whether you actually hit or not. Meaning that, although you declare an "initial" target Wildfire kicks in and makes EVERYONE in range&LOS a target.

This makes it more akin to a Target Lock unit splitting fire, or a long fangs unit splitting fire - you have a choice of assault targets.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

part of Wildfire rules wrote:Once all possible targets in range and within its line of sight have been hit once each Any further hits are wasted.

Anyone in range and LOS is a target as far as Wildfire is concerned. You have a choice of assault targets.

Do you actually need to declare a target to start with then? Why not save the time and just say you'll shoot?

Strictly you do, but the actual effect is negligible atbest

Gwar! wrote:The real question is why are you using Talos?

Because they are just sooo much fun.

Also, I think Nos' Interpretation Sounds more like what the Rules would like to be read as, So i'm going to go with him on this.

Thanks for the help everyone.

Declare something you can plainly see isn't in LOS as a target so you can charge it after Wildfire? Won't come up often I guess.

Spetulhu wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

part of Wildfire rules wrote:Once all possible targets in range and within its line of sight have been hit once each Any further hits are wasted.

Anyone in range and LOS is a target as far as Wildfire is concerned. You have a choice of assault targets.

Do you actually need to declare a target to start with then? Why not save the time and just say you'll shoot?

nosferatu1001 wrote:Strictly you do, but the actual effect is negligible at best

Guys your missing something, or really really wanting this to work for some reason, follow the step in the rule book and you will find that you have to pick a target, the effect of picking this target in the assault phase is you may only assault it or something that came out of it.

How are you confusing the step in wild fire which is done after picking targets and after rolling for hits, with actually saying 'I'm shooting at...' you must say this and you must assault what you named there. The fact that your shooting hit something else doesn't matter - see blast templates...

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Anyone in range and LOS is a target as far as Wildfire is concerned, regardless of whether you actually hit or not. Meaning that, although you declare an "initial" target Wildfire kicks in and makes EVERYONE in range&LOS a target.

This makes it more akin to a Target Lock unit splitting fire, or a long fangs unit splitting fire - you have a choice of assault targets.

And if we take your interpretation of "everyone is a target" then you can not assault anyway as you have never fired at a unit you've only fired at models "a unit that fired in the Shooting phase can only assault the unit that it shot at"


I agree with the similaritys between the rules it's just that one must fist pick the target of your shooting - then once the shots have hit you may pick the closest models - these are not declared targets as far as "THE SHOOTING SEQUENCE" page 15 is concerned and when coupled with the Assault rules it prevents you from assaulting these guys as they are chosen as an effect from Wildfire not from shooting sequence.

you can assault any unit the talos fired at.

I think Chris makes a good point - wildfire shoots at models, not units. As such the only unit "targetted"was the one originally selected.

Talos wild fire does not target under the normal rules there fore the assaulting restriction doesnt apply.

first sentence of wild fire "A talos fires off wild volleys of shots rather than aiming at a specific target. ...."

it never "selects" a target so it can assault anything it wants to in range.

Again 'thou if you follow the shooting rules, even with wildfire taken into consideration one must first choose a target, one in fact does not deviate from the normal proceedings until after "Rolling to hit".

It hits 'things' it does not pick them as a target for shooting at. Only for being hit.

Or back to the you've never actually shot at a unit problem...

It does select a target because you have to nominate a target. It just ends up shooting something else. I say you have to assault what you declared as the target.

There is a tau guess-range blast weapon. If a crisis suit nominated a far unit to shoot at but guessed deliberately short it could shoot the far unit with its other weapon, hit a closer unit with the blast and then assault it, because it is a unit the model shot.

Soup and a roll wrote:There is a tau guess-range blast weapon. If a crisis suit nominated a far unit to shoot at but guessed deliberately short...

You're about two rules editions too late to actually guess range. ;-)

Well I guess you should just ignore me then!

I stand by the point of view though. You nominate a target.

and there are tau weapons that let your unit target two plus units. so your assumption is trivial to undermine

No, really. I used a bad example. Please ignore it.

You do have to nominate the target, though, so that's what you are assaulting. If you can nominate more than one target, you can assault more than one.

(Normally I'd try to avoid these arguments, but the 'assault what you target' rules are fairly nonsensical anyway, so I don't think you'll get a consensus.)

..and the Talks rules, for the fourth time, defined every unit in range as the target. reread my post - the talos rules simply ADD targets, therefore making all ofthem legal targets.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
..and the Talos rules, for the fourth time, defined every unit in range as a target. reread my post - the talos rules simply ADD targets, therefore making all ofthem legal targets.

Exact same way as long fangs do it

...is one interpretation, yes. However, the fact that it uses the word 'targets' in a codex that came out before the 5th edition is not enough to make me change my mind. As I said, you're not going to get a consensus when the RAI can't apply.

Anyway, the OP was obviously just fishing for evidence to suit his preferred way of playing so I hardly think it matters any more.

nosferatu1001 wrote:..and the Talks rules, for the fourth time, defined every unit in range as the target. reread my post - the talos rules simply ADD targets, therefore making all ofthem legal targets.

No, the Talos' rules define models in range as targets. Defining a model as a target is not the same as defining a unit as a target. However, this is irrelevant as the assault rules do not say "may only assault the unit which was your target" - they say "may only assault the unit that it shot at."

You've already selected one unit as a target (in the first steps of the shooting process) and that's the unit you shoot at. The Talos selects one target but may hit other models in the same way that a unit firing a blast weapon may hit models that were not it's selected target. Whichever models or units you end up hitting, the only unit you shot at was the original target.

Long fangs are allowed to select multiple targets and so shoot at more than one unit. A very different situation.

SO when you shoot at the other units, as told in the rules for the Talos, you have not shot AT them?

If you scatter a blast shot onto another unit did you shoot at it? Or did you shoot at the original target and hit the other unit by accident?

Since you do not choose the models hit then I would say no - you do not shoot at them. You shot at the selected target but the other units were hit unintentionally.

This is NOT the same as Blasts scattering, this is the RULES for Wildfire defining ANYONE within range and LOS as a *target*

It uses the word target, what is so difficult about accepting that it really does mean "target" and not something else?

What about BT and TP tests? They try to shoot a further unit but unintentionally hit a closer unit because you fail the test? Your interpretation of "intention" determining target is flawed....

Maybe this helps:

when longfangs split fire,they can choose which unit to assault