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What Defines a Daemon model? Iam asking this because I was facing my friend's possed marines and thier is no thing stating them or a Daemon prince are daemons thusly cannot be wounded on a 2+ by my runic weapon on my Rune priest? Any advice on how to handle this situation.

The word "Daemon" in their special rules would be necessary. As far as I know, that means only models in the daemon codex, lesser and greater daemons from C:CSM, and the Avatar qualify.

RaW: Nothing defines a daemon model, unless you're dealing with the Daemonhunter codex.

Solkan has it. RaW, nothing defines a Dæmon other than the DH codex.

Ok but would this fall under RAI with most players.

By that same flimsy standard of evidence, Sanginius is clearly a greater daemon of Khorne masquerading as a Blood Angel, and the Legion of the Damned are daemons being used by Tzeentch to further the downfall of the Imperium.

solkan wrote:By that same flimsy standard of evidence, Sanginius is clearly a greater daemon of Khorne masquerading as a Blood Angel, and the Legion of the Damned are daemons being used by Tzeentch to further the downfall of the Imperium.

Ok forget I asked the Ria question. seeing as it would take it over the top cleary a house rule would be the best solution to this problem.

Grey elder wrote:Ok but would this fall under RAI with most players.

I don't know most players, or what the RaI is, sadly.

Grey elder wrote:

solkan wrote:By that same flimsy standard of evidence, Sanginius is clearly a greater daemon of Khorne masquerading as a Blood Angel, and the Legion of the Damned are daemons being used by Tzeentch to further the downfall of the Imperium.

Ok forget I asked the Ria question. seeing as it would take it over the top cleary a house rule would be the best solution to this problem.

To be completely sincere, there is no way to avoid the problem that you posed in your original post because GW in their finite capacity have not published anything which specifies what is and is not a daemon. Does an anti-daemon weapon work against something which is merely daemonically possessed? Neither of the two relevant codices, the Space Wolf codex or the Chaos Space Marine codex, or the main rulebook, or the FAQ's for those documents, says one way or the other.

Once you set out to decide the matter, there are about a half dozen to a dozen units that need to be decided upon, if you're trying to be serious about the matter. Look at Lucius the Eternal, for example. Is Lucius sufficiently daemonic? What about Abaddon or the character whose name my keyboard approximates as Kharne? What about Dark Eldar warp beasts, or the previously mentioned Legion of the Damned? Are you going to make a distinction between ambiguously menacing warp entity and daemon?

What you're going to have to do is talk to your opponent and find a mutually agreeable house rule for what is and is not affected by the rune priest's weapon. If nothing else, you could just try playing pairs of games in which one game treats the possessed as daemons and the next doesn't.

Gwar! wrote:

Grey elder wrote:Ok but would this fall under RAI with most players.

I don't know most players, or what the RaI is, sadly.

Best. Answer. Ever.

I can't get enough of "I R 12 years old and haz an internts, soes I can tell you all about RAI" posts.

As gw hasn't told us I'd probably play it safe and only include all of codex daemons, greater/lesser daemons from csm, daemon princes, daemon possessed vehicles, daemonhosts, and the avatar.
I'm not claiming that this is RAW or RAI but I think that it would be hard for anyone to argue that any of the above were not daemons without coming off as a rules-lawyer-TFG of the highest degree...

There is an email floating around from GW game designer Alessio Cavatore who states that GW has no intention of defining which models are daemons and which are not because GW commonly believes that it is self evident that any unit listed as a daemon is a daemon. A statement which doesn't help us at all, sorry to say.

SJ

.... well it IS pretty obvious that anything from codex daemons is a daemon.... as well as daemon princes, summoned greater daemons, and summoned lesser daemons.

Honersstodnt wrote:.... well it IS pretty obvious that anything from codex daemons is a daemon.... as well as daemon princes, summoned greater daemons, and summoned lesser daemons.

All units in C:CD has the Daemon special rule, so it IS pretty obvious

It would be all well and good, if the Codex: DH didn't have a line in its rules about what IT considers to be daemons.

As far as how we play, yes, I think it's pretty easy to come to a reasonable conclusion as long as both players are moderately intelligent.

that may be asking too much sometimes

Well, when you want to start discussing which of the loyalist characters are actually demon princes or demonically possessed pawns, then we'll see how reasonable everyone wants to be.

Q. What Defines a Daemon model?

A. An effigy of the ex-wife.

I'd say everything in the chaos daemons codex apart from soul grinders, because they all have the daemon special rule, are daemons.

Being a daemon grants you certain special abilities, like eternal warrior and your save being invulnerable.

Greater daemons and lesser daemons from the chaos codex lack that rule. I'd say they're not daemons insofar as the space wolf codex is concerned.

Mostly because I'm just bitter, and because I think it's crap that the generic greater daemon is so easily killed by force weapons but the CCD ones aren't.

nevermind...

I found the DH codex and they defined daemons in the codex so yes even possesedmarines are counted as deamons so are daemon princes and chos lords with 50Pts of deamonic gifts. woot.

Grey elder wrote:I found the DH codex and they defined daemons in the codex so yes even possesedmarines are counted as deamons so are daemon princes and chos lords with 50Pts of deamonic gifts. woot.

But by that list, very few things from Codex: Daemons are actually, you know, daemons.

Janthkin wrote:

Grey elder wrote:I found the DH codex and they defined daemons in the codex so yes even possesedmarines are counted as deamons so are daemon princes and chos lords with 50Pts of deamonic gifts. woot.

But by that list, very few things from Codex: Daemons are actually, you know, daemons.

Only Nurglings are IIRC.

Trickier than I first suspected. I do not believe anything whatsoever in the C:SM book is a daemon. Unfortunately you wouldn't know this unless you also had the Chaos Daemons codex, which lists everything as a Daemon under it's special rules. That special rule is pretty important because it grants a lot of really nice abilities. A Bloodthirster (CD) and a Greater Daemon (C:SM), look the same, have sorta the same stats, but a Bloodthirster is a true daemon, because it lists it as such. And all daemons have certain abilities and limitations.

If you don't get the benefits, I can't see how you would get the penalty. And as you yourself are finding, how do you know if something is a daemon? I mean it's nice that Greater Daemon actually says Daemon in the name, but I don't believe names are really used as anything. If it was called a Greater BlahBlah would it then not be a daemon?

C:SM aren't really daemons in the warp sense. You're controlling them in some way/shape/form or they are possessing your troops (or even vehicles). Real Chaos Daemons have somehow punched a hole through the warp and are here. They're the real deal and they are working for the Dark Powers, not a human or even xeno master.

Do you mean CSM? C:SM means Codex:Space Marines.

I think he meant C:CSM.

OP - if you were to argue that everything from C:CD and anything that has Daemon in the name from C:CSM were daemons I think most players would agree.

Ok but codex Daemon hunters does say for terminology reason that possed marines and Daemon princes are daemons along with some other units , but iam to lazy to list them all.

I know but if you start trying to argue about possessed, lords, avatar, etc then it's ropey - need to take that on an opponent by opponent basis.

Not many people would argue that a "greater daemon" or "daemon prince" was not a daemon.

I'm comfortable with Daemon Prince, Greater & Lesser Daemons from C:CSM, and every other unit which has Daemon in its special rules- which is the stuff in C:CD, and the Avatar.

Agreed but I'd also include Saint whatsherface from the Nuns with Guns codex.