Redbeard wrote:The list I used to win the AWC series (1850 points) only ran six kans, backed them up with two loota squads, and four boyz mobs, predominantly shoota boyz.

I believe the list that Yakface & Dakka Detachment 1 took to the adepticon team tournament was similar.


The mistake people make is thinking that the kanwall list should run forward and meet the enemy. It usually shouldn't, it's a shooty list that uses kans both for fire-support and counter-assault. Sure, if you're up against a guard firing line, you need to advance to shoot them, but the emphasis should be on shooting with lootas, shoota boyz, and kans, with assault as good option, but not the first one.

Norade, about your list;

I've found that giving the nob a powerklaw (and especially with the squig) and no defenses means he's an easy kill and an easy target. T4 and 2 wounds with a t-shirt save isn't going to keep you alive long enough when your opponent can single you out because you're an IC. Better to keep the mek out-of-combat than load him up with 40 points of CC gear and watch as he bites it. IMO, the only reason to give a mek any CC options is if you're running a meched up ork list and he's in a vehicle with a boarding plank.

Your list also has issues with range. One kopta (2 wounds, no defenses, shot down by any heavy bolter or rocket launcher in the enemy army) has a threat range of over 30". In the current environment, I really think that you need the 48" range of the lootas to take out threats that are going to hang-back and pepper you with fire. Otherwise, you're giving opponents, especially in spearhead deployment missions, far too much time to shoot you up. Consider that at 1500 points, you may be facing 8 chimeras, and that's 24 multilaser shots from the tanks alone, and possibly heavy-bolters too. Once those kans are gone, that's going to wipe a squad of boyz a turn easily.


Rod,
Nobs don't do well on foot. They're so much more of a threat than the boyz (each one costs as much as three boyz, before upgrades), that if they're slogging it to the opponent, any good player will have picked them out first and eliminated them. As the kan-wall concept is essentially a foot-slogging list, the nobs aren't as useful as they are in a mechanized, or semi-mechanized list, where they can close with the opponent faster, and without taking as much fire.

The first thing you really want is to get some kans, and some shoota boyz (I'd say at least two mobs of 30). A mek w/ forcefield is also fairly integral to the concept, as it gives the kans a 4+save. After that, I'd get at least one unit of lootas (10+ strong), and see how it works out for you.

Norade wrote:
The Mek with the the Klaw and Squig was simply a way to use the last 40 points and I even mentioned they were points that could be dropped.

As for range, yes and no, 24 multilaser shots will produce 1 glance and one pen after the KFF. Things like AC's would worry me far more, but int the end I think the rokkits will do enough to get you in close.

Redbeard wrote:

Norade wrote:
The Mek with the the Klaw and Squig was simply a way to use the last 40 points and I even mentioned they were points that could be dropped.

Granted.

As for range, yes and no, 24 multilaser shots will produce 1 glance and one pen after the KFF. Things like AC's would worry me far more, but int the end I think the rokkits will do enough to get you in close.

Well, I wouldn't worry about the multilasers on the kans as much as on the boyz, after the kans get killed by the rockets in the guard squads and the vendetta fire. New guard can just throw so much firepower out, a good guard player is a scary thing to have to face with no ranged weapons. See, I'd want to have lootas to down the vendettas, to make the guard player have to use his multilasers on the kans, where they're not as effective, rather than letting him use the heavier guns on the kans, and those multilasers (and probably heavy bolter shots too) on the boyz.

A unit of kans cannot win a shooting battle against a vendetta. The vendetta can move and fire as well as the squad. It's not hampered by squad rules. It costs less, its guns hit 25% more often, and gets pens twice as easily (and costs less). Of course, if the kans ever get to it, they can eat it in CC, but that's unlikely. More often, it will be out of their range altogether. And while the forcefield can help the kans out, I don't think it's enough to push that matchup in their favor.

Even minimum sized squads of lootas change the dynamics of the matchup. 5 lootas average 1 result per volley against a vendetta, which can neutralize their threat, from a much greater range. And, you can deploy them much further back, out of range of many of the guard weapons. Now the guard player has to choose between shutting down the lootas with his missiles and lascannons and other 48" range guns, or taking those shots at the kans. If he shoots the lootas, the kans can close the distance, if he shoots the kans, the lootas get to keep shutting his other shots down.

I'm not saying your approach can't work, but most of the strong foot-based ork lists that I've seen or run rely on lootas to keep the range game somewhat more complicated for the opponent.

rodt777 wrote:Thanks for all the help! Anyway, what order should I buy things in? Should I get more boyz, then a box of Kans or 2, a big mek, then lootas or what? What about warbuggies/deff koptas? Which one do you like better? Why? One last thing, when shooting what should be my top priorities when shooting? And how exactly is this kind of army played? Thanks!

hungryp wrote:Building a boyz-heavy army can get intimidating if you have 100+ models sitting on your table all at once.

Linkdead wrote:At 1500 points how many shoota boys is required to make the list effective? Here is the list I've been tweaking it has 1 less squad of boys then the lists in this thread.

HQ:
Big Mek (KFF)
Big Mek (KFF)

Elites:
Lootas x5
Lootas x5
Lootas x6

Troops:
Deff Dread (Skorcha x2)
Shoota Boyz x29 (3x Rokkits), Nob (Klaw, Bosspole)
Shoota Boyz x29 (3x Rokkits), Nob (Klaw, Bosspole)
Gretchin x10

Heavy Support
Kans x3 (Rokkits x3)
Kans x3 (Rokkits x3)
Kans x3 (Rokkits x3)

Linkdead wrote:You can't really take anymore armor. With two big Meks you can take 2 deff dreads and 9 kans.

yakface wrote:The Kan/Dread army is what I tend to refer to as a 'bowling ball of doom' army. A similar army type would be the Godzilla shooty army. Basically, most of the army sticks together in a giant clump and moves up the battlefield together shooting the crap out of the enemy. It can outshoot most opponents and by sticking together in a big clump you completely deny the opponent the chance to charge and take portions of your army out piecemeal. If he commits to charging any part of your bowling ball, the rest of it is going to come in and kick the crap out of whatever had the guts to charge you.

One of the reasons it is called a 'bowling ball' is because it is big and slow. Although the bowling ball is slow moving, ultimately the army doesn't suffer from major mobility issues from a mission standpoint. This is because, just like the Godzilla shooty army, these bowling ball armies are big and dominate the battlefield. The opponent basically has to just back their army up into their deployment zone or desperately try to outflank you because to meet the bowling ball in the middle of the table is suicide.

We'll have the Lootas in every army holding onto whatever objectives are near our deployment zones, hugging terrain for cover as much as possible. But the rest of our army will be pushing forward controlling the center of the board, doing as much damage with shooting and CC as possible as the game wears on before 'expanding' to control objectives in the final turns.

This is a much more gradual process than say, a mech army shooting squads out in their vehicles in the final turns to capture objectives. Our army will be moving forward relentlessly, naturally getting into the right positions to capture mission objectives by the end of the game, just like Godzilla shooty armies do.


Now, it has been suggested that we should take Trukk boyz for 'mobility'. This is the absolute worst thing we could do. It is absolutely imperative that:

A) ALL of our units have potent shooting ability.
B) ALL of our units stay together to provide mutual support for each other (except for Koptas, but I'll get to that later).


Trukks fail in both these mandates because the models inside won't be shooting unless the Trukk is piddling along at 6" (which is unlikely), and if we use the Trukks to actually deliver the boyz out ahead of the 'bowling ball' then all we've done is to isolate small units of Boyz that the enemy can easily shoot or assault.

Remember, we WANT to trade shots with the enemy. We have a TON of light vehicles and infantry all of whom get a cover save due to the KFF. And of course our shoota boyz are one of the most effective shooting unit in the game per point, so even if we lose a few we should be coming out ahead in a straight up firefight with enemy infantry.

It is also important that any Boyz units we take be as big as we can make them because the Mob Rule is incredibly powerful for making such a cheap points cost unit into something that is rock hard. The less you take in a unit, the sooner you find your Orks running away from a failed morale check.

Trukk boyz can be deadly, but only when used in absolute MASS or when used purely as a diversionary tactic to allow the rest of your army to get into combat. Neither of these reasons apply to us and so Trukk boyz should have no place in our armies.

But I do agree that we need some mobility in the army. At the very least we need something that can grab far off empty objectives and/or take a gamble at contesting an enemy objective late in the game.

Koptas are absolutely perfect for this for a number of reasons. First of all they can turbo-boost in order to claim objectives and to gain that awesome 3+ cover save when needed. A T4(5), 2 Wounds with a 4+ save (and a 3+ invulnerable when needed) is actually really durable as long as you don't fly them right in front of something that can eat them for breakfast.

And that's the point. They aren't something you use to 'get your points back', you use them for their mobility and their harassment capabilities and their overall versatility.

You can Scout with them before the game, using their Turbo-boost to get them into a fantastic position if you wish. But even better is to outflank with them. One of the main reasons to do this is for psychological warfare against the opponent. Remember that our 'bowling ball' is moving up the center of the table and our opponents will tend to want to back into their deployment zones, or usually into a corner.

By having outflanking Koptas waiting to arrive, you make your opponents worry about which side they're going to come on and what they're capable of killing rather than focusing on the fact that we really don't have enough to cause TOO much damage.

In other words, if we can convince even some of our opponents to bunch their army up in the center of their deployment zone to avoid our Koptas, then they've already been worth their points.

And then if its an objective mission, when the Koptas actually arrive you don't always have to bring them in to take a shot and then got shot back. If it is an objective mission then you can bring them in a safe place (or turbo-boost them into a safe place) and set them up to take or contest objectives later in the game.

And if we're playing against a mech army, then by all means having a few extra Twin-linked Rokkits firing at side and/or back armor of the Transports that the Lootas aren't able to get to yet is absolutely not a bad thing!

The same psychological warfare idea is also what Snikrot is about, and why he's so important. Again, people are going to want to move away from our bowling ball, but having Snikrot in play coming on from Reserves will wreak absolute chaos in our opponent's game plan. . .I know because I've been there before. It is not a fun feeling!


So let's focus on the pieces of a walker army and why they're essential:

1) Big Meks w/ KFF: They allow the Dread to be taken in every army along with Kans. In game, they provide cover to the walkers/shoota boyz and fix damaged weapons on the walkers on a 4+ (w/ up to 3 re-rolls available with Grot Oilers). Essentially they are the 'core' that that the bowling ball is built around. Having two in each coalition really helps to be able to spread the bowling ball out a little bit while still maintaining coverage over every unit in the 'ball' and allows up to two walkers to be fixed each phase.

2) Kans: These are the meat of the army, and they give us so many S10 attacks on the charge that we can take care of almost any unit in CC. With the KFF they are pretty darn resilient to enemy fire and the Grotzooka is a fantastic anti-infantry weapon in 5th edition. Their main weakness is their WS2 which makes them pretty vulnerable to WS5+ enemies in CC.

3) Dreads: They are the absolute perfect counter-punch to the Kans because they offer slightly better armor and their WS4 fills the hole against WS5 enemies in CC. Without the Kans they don't have enough attacks to take on bigger, tougher units, and the Kans without the Dreads struggle against those WS5 combat units. Dreads are also armed with 2 Big Shootas meaning they can kick out a nice 6 S5 shots at 36" while chugging along.

4) Shoota Boyz with Big Shootas and a Powerklaw Nob. These guys are like the mortar that fills in the cracks between our Kans and Dreads. Not only do they provide fantastic anti-infantry firepower, but between the Nob's Klaw and the boyz natural 2A (3 on the charge) these guys are used to take on many enemies in CC that would have a field day against the Kans/Dreads alone, but can't take the huge amount of attacks that the boyz put out. We rely on strength of numbers and the Mob rule to make sure we don't run away.

5) Lootas. Lootas are obviously there to deal with any light-to-medium vehicles we encounter and as we all know, they're damn good at it. If none of those targets are around they can always be used to take out big, tough beasties as well through sheer weight of fire. They also hold the 'backfield' while the bowling ball moves forward to engage the enemy.

6) Snikrot and Koptas. Already discussed above, but mainly these units are used to psych out our enemies and not allow them to avoid our bowling ball completely at will. Koptas are also great for zooming around to capture empty objectives or contest lightly-held enemy objectives as long as we don't ask too much of them.

7) Grots. In the one army that has Snikrot, a grot unit can be used to still give us our 2nd Troops choice at a fraction of the cost of a Shoota boyz squad (which gives us extra points to spend on Snikrot's mob). Grots also give the Orks in the bowling ball a 4+ cover save instead of the 5+ the KFF gives them and they still get a 5+ save themselves from the KFF should the opponent be crazy enough to fire at them.


Tactics:

The bowling ball tactic is pretty simple. We move to the middle with the bowling ball while the Lootas sit in the backfield. We shoot the crap out of any infantry on the table and then finish by charging any vehicles left with our Kans/Dreads/Powerklaw Nob & shootas and spread out to claim whatever mission objectives are needed along the way.

If we're playing against a mech army we allow our Lootas to take on as many transports as possible and basically RUN everything else in the bowling ball forward looking to put pressure on the opponent and start to tear apart their army in CC while our Koptas outflank to take side shots at transports avoiding our 'bowling ball' by handing out on the flanks.

If we're playing against a crazy CC army like Daemons we either shoot and mass charge the biggest threats that arrive or we pull back and keep shooting if we think charging will endanger our army as a whole.



In conclusion:

I think the bowling ball is a deadly concept but once you start replacing the parts the cohesiveness of the idea starts to fall apart and I think at that point you're better off scrapping the idea as a whole (get rid of the walker fetish) and just start going a different direction.

Clang wrote:Interesting stuff there, Yak. Mostly sounds good, but I was surprised to see you recommending twin big shootas on the dredds and grotzzokas on the kanz, given how much anti-personnel shooting and how little high strength shooting you have elsewhere. So, you're happy to only take out heavy armour in hand to hand, and you disagree with the theory that dredds should be HtH only (other than possibly a burna) and kanz should use rokkits?

yakface wrote:

Clang wrote:Interesting stuff there, Yak. Mostly sounds good, but I was surprised to see you recommending twin big shootas on the dredds and grotzzokas on the kanz, given how much anti-personnel shooting and how little high strength shooting you have elsewhere. So, you're happy to only take out heavy armour in hand to hand, and you disagree with the theory that dredds should be HtH only (other than possibly a burna) and kanz should use rokkits?

I totally understand why people want to stick with only CC upgrades on the Dreads. There are certainly many times where having all the extra S10 Attacks in CC are amazingly invaluable.

However, my idea on how to play the army, which I think was backed up by our overall performance of 7th overall in the Adepticon TT this year relies on the idea that you're not just going to send your Dreadnoughts and Kans out straight into combat against every army type.

There are many, many battles where the army can actually outshoot the opponent and is better off daring the opponent to come within YOUR army's charge range. Under that tactical concept, you don't want to have any unit that is totally unable to contribute to your shooting output. Yeah, 12 Big Shoota shots on their own don't sound like a whole heck of a lot of extra firepower, but when combined with everything else the army can shoot, it really adds up. And yeah, every lick of S5 shooting you can pump out can help tear down those Monstrous Creatures before you get into combat with them, as it doesn't matter how many Attacks your Dreadnought has if its torn to pieces before it gets to strike.

And as for Grotzookas, I absolutely love them. Here't the thing about Rokkits vs. Grotzookas: Against a mech army you NEED to keep pushing your Kans and Dreads forward by running them. You really can't afford to stop to take a shot, especially when Rokkits have such a slim chance of destroying any heavier vehicle. And god forbid you actually need to shoot at infantry or super-light (AV10) vehicles, where all of a sudden the grotzooka is waaay superior, and all for less points (which is another major reason to take them).


I think ultimately it comes back to how people perceive how to utilize the army as a whole. I see it as a shooting army with devastating combat potential when everything charges together. If the opponent is heavily mechanized then the M.O. of the army has to change a bit into rampaging Dreads/Kans backed up by Boyz, but either way Grotzookas are the better buy for the points IMHO.

Norade wrote:

Interesting, my idea was to try and use so many rokkit type weapons as well as lootas that after at most a turn of shooting the worst of your enemies vehicles end up shaken, stunned, or otherwise in no position to threaten you. Do that for turn one and two and on turn three release the WAAAGH!