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On paper, all of these units fit into the same basic bucket of mid-range AV13/14 killers but is there a big difference between them?

Devil Dog
+ 2 weapons (assuming you take the hull MM)
+ Fast vehicle
+ Fairly cheap @ 135
- Only AV12/AV12
- Short range @ 24"

Demolisher
+ AV14!
+ S10 5" pie plate
+ Lascannon option for more range
- Short range @ 24"
- Most expensive @ 180 /w Lascannon

Medusa
+ Medium range @ 36"
+ Option for AP1 2D6 ammo
- Only AV12/AV10
- Only one weapon

Did I miss anything? Does the choice depend on the rest of your army or can you build an army based on these choices.
Another option would be simply to take 1 of each.

The Demolisher is only AP2 so it doesn't get the +1 on the vehicle damage table. It also lacks 2d6 on armor pen making it the weakest tank killer in the group.

The devil dog doesn't have a pie plate, so it can't switch rolls back and forth between pie plating MEQ and tank hunting. Also not it's effective range for killing AV14 is 12" as a multi melta is a poor AV14 killer past 12" when it doesn't get it's 2nd D6.

The Medusa has an incredibly long range for a 2D6 tank penetration. It's AP1 2D6 shot has triple the range of a multi melta who's true effective range is only 12". It can also drop pie. When it comes to firepower there is just no comparison between the medusa and the other choices, the only problem is the medusa has a glass jaw. 12/10/10 and open topped combined with your opponent making it a top priority target means they often have a very short life span.

Every IG list could use a single medusa with cammo netting. There is usually a single building or low wall in a game that the medusa can hide behind for the entire game. Boxing it in with other vehicles could protect it against fast flanking units. As long as it's 50% concealed and doesn't move cammo netting means it should have a 3+ cover save with the proper use of terrain. That's as good as it can possibly get for a 12/10 open topped vehicle, and the cover save is a far greater assurance of survival than paying about as many points to make it closed toped. The problem is that trick usually only works for 1 medusa as most games only have enough terrain for a single vehicle in the deployment zone to claim cover. Any further medusas will have to resort to fighting out in the open where they will be easy targets to kill.

Yes, but cover works both ways, and the medusa doesn't fire indirectly. Honestly, I wouldn't take any of those three options you've presented for the purpose of anti tank. Their cost effectiveness ratio is only so-so.

The thing that I'm kind of surprised you didn't mention is the manticore. S10, can ignore cover (IF), is more accurate and can hit a single vehicle multiple times (or ace more than one vehicle with a single shot). Plus, it's also handy against a horde to boot.

Manticore all the way. the D3 barrages @ extreme range negates any loss suffered by the lack of AP1 or/and 2D6 penetration; Both of which can easily be fielded by different weapons. I personally think a demolisher & executioner are a great combo to field with the manticore.

I thought that the Medusa can either have the AP1 2D6 OR the 5" blast, but not both. Trading in for the Breacher shells seems like you're really focusing on killing tanks, instead of a flexibile unit.

My main beef with the Manticore is that there isn't a cheapish plastic model for it. Everything else can be purchased or created with relative ease and personally I don't have the $$ to go grab a half dozen from Forgeworld.

Yeah, the medusa isn't multipurpose with bastion shells.

And yeah, no model kind of stinks, but if you can figure out what you want to do for the missiles, attaching them to a blank chimera chassis is actually really easy. The conversion itself is really easy, it's just figuring out what materials for the missile that can be tricky. That or you can go whole hog, like me.

Anyways, remember that ALL ordnance rolls 2D6 for armor penetration and chooses the highest. As such, if you hit something with a medusa it is all but guaranteed to get a penetrating hit (mean, really, S10 2D6 where you basically get to reroll one of the D6's you don't like?) The limitations to the medusa isn't its strength once it hits. It's limitations are in that it's accuracy is mediocre and it doesn't ignore cover saves, something about which the medusa can do nothing.

And, of course, not to be too much of a spoiler, but all of the most effective and most cost-effective ways of taking down tanks lie in the infantry half of our codex.

minigun762 wrote:I thought that the Medusa can either have the AP1 2D6 OR the 5" blast, but not both. Trading in for the Breacher shells seems like you're really focusing on killing tanks, instead of a flexibile unit.

My main beef with the Manticore is that there isn't a cheapish plastic model for it. Everything else can be purchased or created with relative ease and personally I don't have the $$ to go grab a half dozen from Forgeworld.

The bastion breacher upgrade does work as you describe. You aren't ever going to use more than three Manticores in a normal game of 40k, so the average player doesn't really need to worry about buying a half dozen. And at 42 pounds they're only about $14 more expensive than plastic Basilisks. The points per dollar ratio actually slightly favors the Manticore, not counting shipping or discounts which tend to swing the deal back in favor of the Basilisk.

Manticores are great for killing vehicles, but I'm not impressed when they shoot at MEQ.

Cover doesn't always work both ways. Sometimes a wall blocks LOS to 50% of a vehicle's hull, but it's gun can clearly see over the wall with no LOS blockage. There is usually 1 idea piece of terrain that is ideal for that purpose, but sometimes not.

Wait, does bastion breach upgrade really disallow you to fire regular rounds?

schadenfreude wrote:The Demolisher is only AP2 so it doesn't get the +1 on the vehicle damage table. It also lacks 2d6 on armor pen making it the weakest tank killer in the group.

The devil dog doesn't have a pie plate, so it can't switch rolls back and forth between pie plating MEQ and tank hunting. Also not it's effective range for killing AV14 is 12" as a multi melta is a poor AV14 killer past 12" when it doesn't get it's 2nd D6.

The Medusa has an incredibly long range for a 2D6 tank penetration. It's AP1 2D6 shot has triple the range of a multi melta who's true effective range is only 12". It can also drop pie. When it comes to firepower there is just no comparison between the medusa and the other choices, the only problem is the medusa has a glass jaw. 12/10/10 and open topped combined with your opponent making it a top priority target means they often have a very short life span.

Every IG list could use a single medusa with cammo netting. There is usually a single building or low wall in a game that the medusa can hide behind for the entire game. Boxing it in with other vehicles could protect it against fast flanking units. As long as it's 50% concealed and doesn't move cammo netting means it should have a 3+ cover save with the proper use of terrain. That's as good as it can possibly get for a 12/10 open topped vehicle, and the cover save is a far greater assurance of survival than paying about as many points to make it closed toped. The problem is that trick usually only works for 1 medusa as most games only have enough terrain for a single vehicle in the deployment zone to claim cover. Any further medusas will have to resort to fighting out in the open where they will be easy targets to kill.

This a good post.

I think the "Hound variant" is being over looked(I like bane with MM hull). A fast moving hull MM gives you a 24" 2d6 range from your deployment position. One shot pony (after you pop a LRaider, opponent will kill it) but, it takes some focus from your ordy battery. I guess what I'm saying is, take your hounds with a ordy battery. This versatility works itself out as the game progresses.

I would take a vanquisher over demolisler for AT duty.

minigun762 wrote:My main beef with the Manticore is that there isn't a cheapish plastic model for it.

There is a new plastic Manticore model being released next month actually, although it doesn't have the style of the codex art, but instead have the 4 missiles in a row like the epic Manticore.

Kubik wrote:Wait, does bastion breach upgrade really disallow you to fire regular rounds?

Yes, the upgrade specifies the Medusa with BB 'always fires with the following profile', emphasis mine.

Byte wrote: A fast moving hull MM gives you a 24" 2d6 range from your deployment position. One shot pony (after you pop a LRaider, opponent will kill it) but, it takes some focus from your ordy battery.

That's an awful lot of points spent for a throw-away unit.

As for the fact that it's fast, I guess I don't honestly see it being able to zip forward turn 1 and still be able to hit side armor unencumbered by cover... really ever. What's the advantage to fast if you're still shooting front armor with your short-ranged weapon?

My last game I popped and LRC exposing a full load with HQ to my ordnance battery(like my post suggest, they should work in concert). I destroyed 850pts of SW goodness in turn one. The strategy may not work for all, but worked fine for me.

Remember in a IG gun line or armor line when facing opponents like BA or SW, they will most likely set up in a matter to close quickly. Works in favor of the fast MM effort.

I also play 'nids with spored Zoans. Doesn't seem a lot of points for me in trade. 135ish for 850ish (in my case). I like my odds.

Hmm, the Devil Dog is a new favorites of mine, great anti-tank capability in a fast vehicle package. Having a MM and Melta Cannon is a bit overkill. Yeah, it's nice to have two melta weapons, but the tank is very vunerable to infantry. HB all the way (cheaper too).

Demolisher isn't cost effective, great in Cityfighting, excellent for destroying buildings and the infantry inside. Terrible for anti-tank, too short ranged unless someone decides to wander into the "death zone"

The Medusa is a siege weapon, a bit too specialized for general gaming.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Furthermore, with the new squadron rules for IG tanks, I have taken a HH and DD together. I didn't want to, but it's the only way my list can still include my Valkyrie and Scout Sentinel for Outflanking maneuvers. Luckily, the majority of guys around here play SM, so the HH can be a shot catcher to ensure that the DD get's nice and close and melts some Land Raiders. While still maintaining some anti-infantry capability with the Strength 8 AP1 3" Template + HB.

I wouldn't mind making a Bane Wolf as well, pretty awesome in combination with a HH.

I am also a fan of the Devil Dog + MM. Since I don't use Vends/Valks (they're too large and always killed on sight) I don't mind that FA slot, they're great at zooming up a flank and harass enemy vehicles while they rarely draw fire in the first turns since other targets pose a bigger thread to the enemy (Chimera+content, artillery). When used to open transports I recommend a LR as buddy since they're both mobile while firing. And if your DD should lack armored targets it's still an ID-Plasmacannon for t4 models.

Redemption wrote:

minigun762 wrote:My main beef with the Manticore is that there isn't a cheapish plastic model for it.

There is a new plastic Manticore model being released next month actually, although it doesn't have the style of the codex art, but instead have the 4 missiles in a row like the epic Manticore.

Interesting. I hadn't heard that, that would change it for me.

I'm kinda surprised that people are so down on the Demolisher. I would have assumed that AV14/AV13 + 2 anti-tank weapons would have been more of a threat but it seems like people aren't a fan of the 24" range.

minigun762 wrote:

Redemption wrote:

minigun762 wrote:My main beef with the Manticore is that there isn't a cheapish plastic model for it.

There is a new plastic Manticore model being released next month actually, although it doesn't have the style of the codex art, but instead have the 4 missiles in a row like the epic Manticore.

Interesting. I hadn't heard that, that would change it for me.

I'm kinda surprised that people are so down on the Demolisher. I would have assumed that AV14/AV13 + 2 anti-tank weapons would have been more of a threat but it seems like people aren't a fan of the 24" range.

I don't dislike the Demolisher Cannon, it's just that the Tank's base cost is high. Then the sponsons are a bit overpriced too. I can't fit it into my 2500 point army right now.

I take two demolishers in my list. I find the armour makes them tough and the S10 AP2 blast scares infantry and majority of vehicles. Sure it lacks 2D6 armour pen like the dog and medusa; but it's certainly the most sturdy armour of the 3. I wouldn't take sponsons and take a heavy flamer on the hull.

The devil dog is good for fast moving melta and either suicide attacks or alpha strike. Because of the damage it can cause and how quickly it can move it will attract the wrong kind of attention. It does have armour 12 on the front and sides but it still can be taken out with melta easily or a well place lascannon.

The medusa is the weakest chassis of the lot but has massive range so should be out of sight; throw on camo netting and you get a +1 cover save bonus, providing you're in cover. HOwever units outflanking or getting close will probably ignore that. It's weapon of course is the strongest of the 3 being S10 AP1 and rolls 2D6 armour pen.

So the Medusa is the strongest but the weakest, the devil dog is medium armour and the quickest and the demolisher can tackle both infantry and vehicles but lack the extra punch but is the strongest armour our the lot.

All have advantages at the end of the day, just depends what you want.

The obvious answer of what is the best AT vehicle is... the Manticore.

As for the Demolisher having a place in the list or not, it depends on what you are trying to acomplish. My 1750 list HS section has a Manticore, an LR Plasmacushioner and a Plasmolisher. The 2 LR scare anyone who has played against one before and help draw alot of atention away from my fragile Vendettas and Chimeras (and the Manticore to some extent).

Manticores are the best at range, but in apoc those 4 shots and weak armor could prove a real buzzkill. Medusas, as the name suggests, are the best bastion-breachers and AT. Devildog are the cheapest and they're..... well thats it. Demolishers are the best all-round and can take mm and lc to maximise AT effectiveness. Also, IIRC, s10 can ID termies. So a manticore can ID them while still having enough WPM (wounds per model(up to 3)) to bypass their inv saves. so, its:

Demos-all round
DD-get more of them
Mantis- Fire support
Medusa- AT and siege

minigun762 wrote:I'm kinda surprised that people are so down on the Demolisher. I would have assumed that AV14/AV13 + 2 anti-tank weapons would have been more of a threat but it seems like people aren't a fan of the 24" range.

Stormrider wrote:I don't dislike the Demolisher Cannon, it's just that the Tank's base cost is high. Then the sponsons are a bit overpriced too. I can't fit it into my 2500 point army right now.

Exactly. It's not that a demolisher armed with a lascannon and sponson multimeltas couldn't do some unkind things to enemy vehicles, it's that you have to pay 220 points for the privilege. I guess in an armored or mechanized list, this wouldnt' actually be all that bad for anti-tank, but in a list that's willing to include some infantry you can buy 12 meltaguns with this many points.

mercer wrote:So the Medusa is the strongest but the weakest, the devil dog is medium armour and the quickest and the demolisher can tackle both infantry and vehicles but lack the extra punch but is the strongest armour our the lot.

Right.

The thing I'd note, though, is that the devil dog isn't appreciably better armored than the medusa, and I highly question what the actual value of it being faster is. As for the demolisher, the fact that it can also tackle infantry (like the medusa without bastion breachers), is a testament to the fact that if you bring this vehicle to kill other vehicles you will find yourself being distracted by shooting it at infantry. The only setup I'd use for a demolisher designed to take on vehicles is with a lascannon and sponson multimeltas because otherwise the temptation to shoot it against infantry would be too great (meaning that it's not actually an anti-tank weapon). This means that you need to spend even MORE points on anti-tank just to cover for all of those times when your "anti-tank" demolisher isn't shooting at tanks.

Ailaros wrote:
The thing I'd note, though, is that the devil dog isn't appreciably better armored than the medusa, and I highly question what the actual value of it being faster is.

I'd say the extra 2 side armor is nice considering you have to be alot closer to your target, however it is lacking compared to the Demolisher.

Maybe I'm missing something but for me, the value of being a "fast" tank is shooting @ 6" and 12" instead of 0" and 6" of movement.
With the hull MM, you can move 6" and hit a tank with 2 Melta shots, giving you a max range of 30" and effective range of 18". Again AV14 S8 AP1 is lacking to be sure, but it is pretty potent against AV10-13 and 2 potential damage rolls give you a better chance to actually kill the target.

If you leave the hull MM at home, there is not reason not to be moving 12" and blasting your Melta Cannon. Now your range is 36" and 24" respectively and you are protected from assault troops who are only hitting on you 6's. On paper, it seems to be a valid option but considering it is rarely used, I must be missing something.

I'd stump for the Medusa with BB shells:

1. 48" range Melta-gun equivalent. 'nuff said.
2. Small blast means you can still catch two or three models at a time if they aren't careful. Terminators beware!
3. The BB profile is not Ordnance, so Heavy Bolters and Stubbers can all be fired at the same time. Got line of sight? Throw a few S5 and S4 shots downrange too.
4. Move and fire. Roll forward behind the Chimera wall and lay down some pain over the shoulder.
5. Take armored crew compartment and they aren't open topped any more for a modest cost.

minigun762 wrote:I'd say the extra 2 side armor is nice considering you have to be alot closer to your target, however it is lacking compared to the Demolisher.

Right, I mean, the devil dog is just as vulnerable in assault as is the medusa, and if you have a hull MM, that means that you're always going to be pointing at your opponent with your AV12 anyways. I guess it would ensure that you don't accidentally lose a vehicle to a heavy bolter in the side, but I don't see that as all that likely.

minigun762 wrote:
Maybe I'm missing something but for me, the value of being a "fast" tank is shooting @ 6" and 12" instead of 0" and 6" of movement.
With the hull MM, you can move 6" and hit a tank with 2 Melta shots, giving you a max range of 30" and effective range of 18". Again AV14 S8 AP1 is lacking to be sure, but it is pretty potent against AV10-13 and 2 potential damage rolls give you a better chance to actually kill the target.

If you leave the hull MM at home, there is not reason not to be moving 12" and blasting your Melta Cannon. Now your range is 36" and 24" respectively and you are protected from assault troops who are only hitting on you 6's. On paper, it seems to be a valid option but considering it is rarely used, I must be missing something.

Right, so the advantage of fast is that it increases the range. You're still shooting front armor with single shot weapons against targets likely in cover. Plus, in order to gain this relatively mediocre advantage, you need to expose the vehicle by driving it out in front of everything.

Perhaps the fact that it's chief advantage is also a disadvantage, the end net result is you spending 135 points for a pair of meltaguns. Why bother?

Out of those 3 its the medusa hands down, really as far as antitank goes bastion breacher medusa is probably the igs best tank.

Even if the hole scatters off you still almost always pen anything but armor 14, and its hard to scatter off a land raider with bs3. Along with ap1 and massive range it wins.

Ailaros wrote:

mercer wrote:So the Medusa is the strongest but the weakest, the devil dog is medium armour and the quickest and the demolisher can tackle both infantry and vehicles but lack the extra punch but is the strongest armour our the lot.

Right.

The thing I'd note, though, is that the devil dog isn't appreciably better armored than the medusa, and I highly question what the actual value of it being faster is. As for the demolisher, the fact that it can also tackle infantry (like the medusa without bastion breachers), is a testament to the fact that if you bring this vehicle to kill other vehicles you will find yourself being distracted by shooting it at infantry. The only setup I'd use for a demolisher designed to take on vehicles is with a lascannon and sponson multimeltas because otherwise the temptation to shoot it against infantry would be too great (meaning that it's not actually an anti-tank weapon). This means that you need to spend even MORE points on anti-tank just to cover for all of those times when your "anti-tank" demolisher isn't shooting at tanks.

Well it's armour 12 on the side compared to armour 10 so a reasonable increase which protects against those side armour outflankers.

Well fast is moving 12" and firing a weapon or moving 6" and firing two, that's two melta shots on something which can close the gap really quick and is protected pretty well.

Not really with the demolisher. A bit of target priority here and common sense and what to take out. The way you've put it is "oh I spot infantry I must kill them" this isn't the case. Sure it can kill infantry really good and do tanks as well so it's dual purpose, but if you become distracted by infantry instead of real threats then your a poor player (I don't mean you personally btw! ) and that's not the tanks fault.

The load out you suggested is overkill and making the tank very expensive. Why move closer when you don't have to with the large template? Certainly putting your expensive tank at risk. Though what kind of player would shoot all those options you've given at infantry? Again that's not the tanks fault that's the players. I think your picking player faults and off loading them as the units fault tbh.

mercer wrote:Well it's armour 12 on the side compared to armour 10 so a reasonable increase which protects against those side armour outflankers.

Okay, so it stops you from accidentally losing a vehicle to heavy bolter fire when you zip forwards and it stops you from being shaken when when you're outflanked by bolters. Once again, the advantage is so marginal, I really don't see it as much of an advantage.

mercer wrote:Well fast is moving 12" and firing a weapon or moving 6" and firing two, that's two melta shots on something which can close the gap really quick and is protected pretty well.

To which I say...

Ailaros wrote:
Right, so the advantage of fast is that it increases the range. You're still shooting front armor with single shot weapons against targets likely in cover. Plus, in order to gain this relatively mediocre advantage, you need to expose the vehicle by driving it out in front of everything.

Perhaps the fact that it's chief advantage is also a disadvantage, the end net result is you spending 135 points for a pair of meltaguns. Why bother?

As for the demolisher

mercer wrote:
Not really with the demolisher. A bit of target priority here and common sense and what to take out. The way you've put it is "oh I spot infantry I must kill them" this isn't the case.... the load out you suggested is overkill and making the tank very expensive. Why move closer when you don't have to with the large template? Certainly putting your expensive tank at risk.

Of course you need target priority, but your opponent is perfectly capable of saturating you with targets. I mean, if you're playing against a marine player and you've got a land raider full of terminators bearing down on you and a squad of death company charging just further afield, it poses a serious question as to which should be targeted by the demolisher, especially if you've accidentally kitted the demolisher with plasma sponsons. In this case, I'd say that the better thing would be to shoot the death company, but this means that you now have nothing shooting at the land raider. As such, your "anti tank" demolisher can find itself rightly not shooting against tanks.

And yes, this is horrendously expensive, which is why I would never take it personally (I'd take 3 meltagun SWSs instead), but to its credit, if you can keep it out of assault, it can take a whole lot of "weapon destroyed" results and still be effective against tanks (and you can still always rely on ramming even then). Plus, some people really value AV14 in general, and if you keep it in cover, it's basically immune to long range anti tank.

And I don't like the word "overkill". I prefer the word "insurance". After all, when you're shooting at something with a 200 point tank it better the heck be dead after a turn of shooting.

I mostly use Meltavets for popping Land Raiders. The Devildog I use as a "general-purpose" tank, giving it a hull-mounted Heavy Flamer as well.

felixthecat345 wrote:Manticores are the best at range, but in apoc those 4 shots and weak armor could prove a real buzzkill. Medusas, as the name suggests, are the best bastion-breachers and AT. Devildog are the cheapest and they're..... well thats it. Demolishers are the best all-round and can take mm and lc to maximise AT effectiveness. Also, IIRC, s10 can ID termies. So a manticore can ID them while still having enough WPM (wounds per model(up to 3)) to bypass their inv saves.

Just because it says "Instant" and "Death" in the name doesn't mean that it ignores armour saves!

Right.

I find it funny when people bemoan the manticore's AP4. It's already one of our best weapons against light infantry, transports AND heavy tanks. The only thing it DOESN'T do well is kill MEq's. I mean, sheesh, do people really need it to be the ONLY guard vehicle worth taking?

Plus even though it's not the epitome of awesome against marines, it's not like it doesn't do damage. A pair of blasts landing on a full tac squad takes out half the squad. That's still better than TWO plasma SWSs, and better than FOUR plasma SWSs (that's 12 plasma guns, folks) if the marines are in cover.

The manticore is good against almost everything, to focus on the one thing it's not good at to the expense of the everything else it IS good at is a little silly.