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So. . . . . .

I did a little search on this topic to see what I could find out before I posted anything and the only real thread dealing with it is here:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/221339.page#427227

And I didn't want to revive a two-year old thread. However, as I was reading the interpretations and I read the INAT FAQ, I was dismayed by the fact that the argument never came to a conclusion. So, now that people have had time to play against Shrike lists, have used him or whatnot, what is the end result of this argument, barring the INAT?

If, by Yakface's reasoning, IC's can't receive 'See, But Remain Unseen', then they cannot also gain the benefits from:

Apothecaries and their Nartheciums
Attack bonuses from Chapter Banners
Chaplains' Liturgies of Battle and Honour of the Chapter
etc.
etc.

I could go on and on. As you know there are plenty of rules that target the models in the unit that the IC is attached to.

Shrike's wording says: "Shrike and any models in his squad. . ."

Is an attached IC a model? Yes.
Is the attached IC a part of X squad? Yes.
Is Shrike attached to X squad? Yes.
Therefore, is the IC a model in Shrike's squad? Yes.
Can the IC infiltrate? No.

Huh?

The reasoning is that on page 48, it says that the character's special rules are not conferred upon the unit and vice versa. However, before that, it says, "Unless specified in the rule itself. . .". So, according to Yakface's interpretation, all "special rules" must outline the fact that they can affect Independent characters as well, otherwise they cannot as per page 48.

So, none of the rules in the small list above (not to mention all the other rules that affect entire units) affect IC's because none of them mention IC's as a recipient of the rule? So, either Shrike's rule affects IC's joined to his unit or they do not benefit from them, but they also cannot benefit from FNP from Narthecium's, etc., etc.

Which is it?

I'm confused. Are you looking for a response from Yakface, the INAT FAQ council, or do you just want random speculation from those not involved?

solkan wrote:I'm confused. Are you looking for a response from Yakface, the INAT FAQ council, or do you just want random speculation from those not involved?

Anyone that wants to put in their input. I know Yakface's answer (unless it has changed), but I'd like some more input. I, like others in the thread above, don't really accept that other IC's don't gain his special rule. If they didn't, there are plenty of other rules that won't affect them either and yet, they're played that they do affect them without so much as a second thought. Why is Shrike's different?

To outline Yakface's argument:

yakface wrote:The RAW demands that the special rule in question must specify that it applies to characters for it to do so. Shrike is an IC but he is also a unit. Another IC who joins him does not gain the ability because it doesn't specify that it applies to other ICs.

yakface wrote:Independent Characters have a rule all to themselves (which I have pointed out and posted now several times) that says they must be specifically mentioned in a unit's special rule to benefit from it. That is exactly the point of the rule. When you join an IC to a unit he doesn't just automatically get the special rule the unit has unless the rule says it applies to ICs. So yes, any unit joined by Shrike gets the ability because the rule says the unit does, but any further ICs do not suddenly get to ignore this basic restriction of the IC rules.

Unit special rules (and Shrike is a unit) do not get passed onto joined ICs unless the rule specifically mentions that it applies to ICs.

yakface wrote:He IS a model in the unit, but when it comes to an IC the rule must specifically say they benefit from the rule in order for them to do so.

Shrike is a unit. He has a special rule, called "see, but remain unseen" and that special rule gives him, and models in his unit the infiltrate ability.

But as that special rule does not say it applies to other ICs joining the unit, it does not per the IC rule on page 48 of the rulebook.


So yes, Shrike gets infiltrate and yes the rest of the models in his unit get infiltrate, but other ICs joined to the unit aren't just a model in the unit. They are a model in the unit who are also ICs and ICs have a specific exception saying that they do not gain unit rules by joining the unit unless the rule specifies that they do.

yakface wrote:where in that rule you quoted does it say the exception for ICs gaining a unit's rules only applies to universal special rules? It does not.

'See but remain unseen' is a special rule and what does it do? It grants Shrike and the unit he is with the infiltrate ability. However an IC joining this unit does not gain the benefits of 'see but remain unseen' because the rule does not specify that it also applies to joined ICs.

I'm not exactly sure where you got the idea that the quote above only applies to infiltrate (or other USRs) but it doesn't, it applies to all special rules that a unit has.

So:
1. I have Lysander attached to a Command Squad. The Narthecium doesn't say that it affects IC's. Therefore, Lysander doesn't get FNP (according to the above interpretation - edit: this was covered in the FAQ and I accept the answer because it's "wargear" and not a special rule of the unit itself).
2. Chaplains' Liturgies of Battle and Honour of the Chapter cannot be used by attached IC's because it does not specify them.
3. Pedro is attached to Lysander's unit. Pedro can't benefit from Bolter Drill because it doesn't specify IC's.
4. All of Dante's special rules.
5. Ragnar Blackmane's Insane Bravado doesn't work on IC's who are attached to his unit.
6. Logan Grimnar's High King doesn't work on IC's who are attached to his unit.
7. There are plenty more (I can find them if you like), but these few examples will do for now.

If you don't agree with the above rulings, then Shrike may give attached IC's infiltrate per 'Seen, But Remain Unseen'. If you do agree with the above rulings, it's the first that I've seen the above interpretation used and it's news to me that IC's cannot benefit from any special rules except when they are specifically pointed out.

I just wanted others to weigh in.

I don't really have an opinion on the IC issue... At a glance, Yakface's explanation would seem to cover it.


For the sake of those who are interested in discussing it, though, I am going to jump in here and ask that in the interests of not derailing the topic, let's all just assume that Shrike can (as the vast majority of people play it) infiltrate with a unit, and confine the discussion to the IC issue.

For the benefit of anyone who has missed the whole Shrike debacle, just do a search... you'll turn up any number of discussions on how Shrike works per RAW.

insaniak wrote:


For the sake of those who are interested in discussing it, though, I am going to jump in here and ask that in the interests of not derailing the topic, let's all just assume that Shrike can (as the vast majority of people play it) infiltrate with a unit, and confine the discussion to the IC issue.

Yeah, that's the issue I want to discuss. Can an IC that is attached to Shrike's unit infiltrate with his unit per "Seen, But Remain Unseen"? The rule states that "all models" in his unit may infiltrate. If they do not gain this bonus, then the short list above has to be put into effect as well. You can't pick and choose which rules you'd like to use and which ones you wouldn't.

I think RAI is that IC's attached to units benefit from rules that target the entire unit or, even more specifically, each individual model. Yakface has put up a RAW argument. I was wondering what Dakka thought/the concensus of those playing against/with Shrike.

Edit: If someone assaulted me with a unit of Blood Claws with Ragnar and a Wolf Priest attached, RAW (according to Yakface) is that the Wolf Priest doesn't benefit from Insane Bravado and Ragnar would not become Fearless, because neither of these Special Rules indicate Independent characters (however, Ragnar would become Fearless because he's now joined to a Fearless unit).

-or-

Pedro is joined to Lysander and a unit of terminators. They all fire their on an incoming unit. Pedro may not use Bolter Drill because it does not indicate Independent Characters.

Is this how people are playing? Because if not, Shrike can give attached IC's Infiltrate.

puma713 wrote:
Yeah, that's the issue I want to discuss. Can an IC that is attached to Shrike's unit infiltrate with his unit per "Seen, But Remain Unseen"? The rule states that "all models" in his unit may infiltrate.

If a rule specifically grants a USR to a unit, every model in this unit will benefit. Since IC's aren't units on their own anymore if they
join a unit or unit+IC, they will benefit from both, the USR and the protection if shot at. IMO, IC's are specifically seperated in HtH,
the intend of the status of IC+unit in general should be xIC + models of the unit = 1 unit.

HDYPI is as Dakkas own polls have provided a "Shrike may infiltrate his unit=yes" result and those players I know of fielding Shrike
never mentioned running into trouble doing so.

There's a similar discussion with Snikrot and attached ICs, most notably Ghazghull or a Warboss on a Bike. You might find something a little more recent in one of those discussions.

Basically INAT draws a line between special rules granted by wargear and special rules granted by models - wargear rules extend to ICs, model rules don't. It's not ideal and not really backed up too well by the rules. I don't think I've ever seen Yakface (or any of the other INAT members) explain how they came to that conclusion.

Really, it's how you apply the rule will base an opponents reaction - Shrike Infiltrating with his favorite Chaplain is understandable, Snikrot letting a noisy Warboss sneaking behind enemy lines on a noisier Bike feels a little like cheating the system. I'd say both are allowable under RAW.

MasterSlowPoke wrote:Basically INAT draws a line between special rules granted by wargear and special rules granted by models - wargear rules extend to ICs, model rules don't. It's not ideal and not really backed up too well by the rules. I don't think I've ever seen Yakface (or any of the other INAT members) explain how they came to that conclusion.

The line is drawn because the IC rules specifically exclude IC's from benefiting from a unit's special rules unless the rule specifically includes them and vice versa. This is found on page 48.


In fact, the IC rules even use Infiltrate as an example of a special rule not gained by an IC joining a unit with the rule...

But it is not the unit giving the IC a USR, it is a special rule from Shrike.

The rule on p48 you quoted has no bearing as the unit is not transferring a USR, Shrikes special rule is allowing access to a USR. And this rule gives “models in his squad” access to the infiltrate USR.

The ‘transference clause’ is there to make note that unit rules do not transfer to attached models by reason of association. Nothing more. This clause does not preclude the granting of a USR when a rule specifically does so.

The difference is that SM Scouts do not have a rule that gives the USR to attached models and the clause clarifies that the USR is not transferred. But Shrike’s rule specifically allows access to the USR. It is a difference between transference by association (SM Scouts) and transference by permission (Shrike’s rule).

hisdudeness wrote:But it is not the unit giving the IC a USR, it is a special rule from Shrike.

The squad isn't. Shrike is... and Shrike is also a unit.

So it makes no difference where the rule is coming from. IC's do not benefit from a unit's special rules unless the special rule specifically says it affects joined IC's. Shrike is a unit. Shrike has a special rule. That special rule does not specifically affect joined IC's.

Therefore, IC's joined to Shrike, or to a squad to which Shrike is joined, do not benefit from his special rule.

This clause does not preclude the granting of a USR when a rule specifically does so.

The rule doesn't specifically say so in this case, though. They give an example of a rule that does specifically target joined IC's (Stubborn)... this makes clear that when they ask for the rule to specifically include IC's, that means that the rule actually mentions IC's specifically. '...and models in his squad' is not specifically addressing IC's... it is a general, blanket term for the models in a squad to which Shrike is joined.

insaniak wrote:

...and models in his squad' is not specifically addressing IC's... it is a general, blanket term for the models in a squad to which Shrike is joined.

So an IC isn't a model?

insaniak wrote:

hisdudeness wrote:But it is not the unit giving the IC a USR, it is a special rule from Shrike.

The squad isn't. Shrike is... and Shrike is also a unit.

So it makes no difference where the rule is coming from. IC's do not benefit from a unit's special rules unless the special rule specifically says it affects joined IC's. Shrike is a unit. Shrike has a special rule. That special rule does not specifically affect joined IC's.

Therefore, IC's joined to Shrike, or to a squad to which Shrike is joined, do not benefit from his special rule.

This clause does not preclude the granting of a USR when a rule specifically does so.

The rule doesn't specifically say so in this case, though. They give an example of a rule that does specifically target joined IC's (Stubborn)... this makes clear that when they ask for the rule to specifically include IC's, that means that the rule actually mentions IC's specifically. '...and models in his squad' is not specifically addressing IC's... it is a general, blanket term for the models in a squad to which Shrike is joined.

So, all the above rules are played incorrectly as well? Ragnar's Insane Bravado doesn't work to an attached Wolf Priest. Logan Grimnar's High King doesn't pass on to an attached IC. All of Chaplains' special rules do not. Dante's rules do not. In fact just about any special rule that anyone has doesn't pass on to IC's, because Stubborn may be the only one that says that it does otherwise.

1hadhq wrote:So an IC isn't a model?

Of course an IC is a model. But not all models are IC's.

The rule has to specifically address IC's in order to affect IC's.

puma713 wrote:So, all the above rules are played incorrectly as well? Ragnar's Insane Bravado doesn't work to an attached Wolf Priest. Logan Grimnar's High King doesn't pass on to an attached IC. All of Chaplains' special rules do not. Dante's rules do not. In fact just about any special rule that anyone has doesn't pass on to IC's, because Stubborn may be the only one that says that it does otherwise.

As I see it, anything that grants a USR will work so long as the USR specifically says it includes IC's, or is at least one of the those that is not lost when an IC joins the unit.

Other special rules, like Insane Bravado will indeed not work on IC's joined to the unit.


Although it does introduce a certain amount of grey. Honour of the Chapter, for example, conveys the Fearless USR to the unit. Fearless does specifically include IC's joined to the unit... but HotC does not specifically mention IC's at all. I take that to mean that HotC does still work, because Fearless specifically includes IC's... but you could certainly argue that it doesn't, due to HotC being the actual Special Rule at work.

I can't comment on all the Space Wolf stuff. I can, however, comment on Snikrot.

Yakface's reasoning basically applies. However, there is one thing that is entirely not backed up by RAW; the wargear vs. models distinction. The distinction that SHOULD be drawn, by RAW, is between attached ICs and upgrade characters.

Snikrot is an upgrade character. He has a special rule, which confers a certain effect to all models in "his unit". This special rule can be used by attached ICs. Why?

1. They are part of the unit, thus fulfilling the "in his unit" requirement.
2. Ambush (Snikrot's special rule) is not a "unit special rule". If it was, the attached IC couldn't get it, but Snikrot is not a unit and, therefore, has no "unit special rules". As such, attached ICs are not forbidden from benefiting from it.

The same reasoning applies to Apothecaries, Chapter Banners, and similar effects that are conferred from a model within the unit itself. Those special effects work, regardless of whether it's the model or the wargear conferring them ( I have NO IDEA where that qualification comes from).

However, by RAW, no, an attached IC cannot benefit from a special rule given to the unit by another attached IC, nor can two ICs attached to each other benefit from each others special rules, because each IC is a "unit" in and of itself, making their special rules "unit special rules".

insaniak wrote:

1hadhq wrote:So an IC isn't a model?

Of course an IC is a model. But not all models are IC's.

You did notice that a MODEL is the subject?
Thus , any additional status isn't as relevant as youre making it.

1hadhq wrote:You did notice that a MODEL is the subject?

But it's not a specific term. It's a generic, blanket term.

In order for a special rule to be passed on to an IC, it has to specifically include IC's. 'Model' does not specifically include IC's.

insaniak wrote:

1hadhq wrote:You did notice that a MODEL is the subject?

But it's not a specific term. It's a generic, blanket term.

In order for a special rule to be passed on to an IC, it has to specifically include IC's. 'Model' does not specifically include IC's.

Wrong for an entirely different reason. See my post above on the subject; if the special rule is conferred by a model or piece of wargear, as opposed to part of the profile of an entire unit, then attached ICs do benefit. However, if it is part of the profile of a unit, ICs do not benefit, because it's a "unit special rule".

"Unit special rule" and "special rule" are not synonymous.

BeRzErKeR wrote: if the special rule is conferred by a model or piece of wargear, as opposed to part of the profile of an entire unit, then attached ICs do benefit. However, if it is part of the profile of a unit, ICs do not benefit, because it's a "unit special rule".

You're making a distinction there that I don't think is actually backed up by the rules.

But, regardless, the rule in question is a unit special rule, by your definition, as it's a rule that is a part of Shrike's profile.

insaniak wrote:

BeRzErKeR wrote: if the special rule is conferred by a model or piece of wargear, as opposed to part of the profile of an entire unit, then attached ICs do benefit. However, if it is part of the profile of a unit, ICs do not benefit, because it's a "unit special rule".

You're making a distinction there that I don't think is actually backed up by the rules.

But, regardless, the rule in question is a unit special rule, by your definition, as it's a rule that is a part of Shrike's profile.

Yes, it is, since Shrike is a unit unto himself. As a consequence, other ICs cannot benefit.

@insaniak: Did you miss the difference? The rule on p48 tells us that an IC does not gain a USR by association. Shrike’s special rule is giving the USR to other models. Are there any rules that specifically have the clause “to include IC” (or something to that effect)? Stubborn changes the ‘association’ restriction. It is not proof of the INAT view. It is a completely different situation.

Puma713 is correct in the examples he gave. You cannot pick and choose when to apply a rule. Either IC gain USRs or they do not. How the USR is given is irrelevant. Can you find me a rule that states the source matters? BeRzErKeR is correct with the distinction in wargear vs. models not being backed by RAW.

You are hung up on “models in his squad” part of the rule. Would there be a difference if it was all models with in a set radius? What about Chapter Tactics? It is a special rule (that is also a unit special rule) so by INAT thinking ICs do not gain the benefits.

hisdudeness wrote:@insaniak: Did you miss the difference? The rule on p48 tells us that an IC does not gain a USR by association.

A minor nitpick, but the rule on page 48 doesn't refer to USR's at all, other than as a reference for the Infiltrate rule. It applies to 'special rules', not just USR's.

Are there any rules that specifically have the clause “to include IC” (or something to that effect)?

Yes. Quite a few of the USR's explain exactly how they interact with IC's.

You cannot pick and choose when to apply a rule. Either IC gain USRs or they do not. How the USR is given is irrelevant.

Not entirely true. An IC is specifically forbidden from benefiting from a unit's special rules unless they specifically include him. But that doesn't stop him from benefiting from a USR conferred from another source.

You are hung up on “models in his squad” part of the rule. Would there be a difference if it was all models with in a set radius?

No. Again, the rule has to specifically include IC's in order to be conveyed to them.

What about Chapter Tactics? It is a special rule (that is also a unit special rule) so by INAT thinking ICs do not gain the benefits.

Chapter Tactics is not a special rule conveyed by joining a unit, which is what the restriction on page 48 is referring to.

insaniak wrote: A minor nitpick, but the rule on page 48 doesn't refer to USR's at all, other than as a reference for the Infiltrate rule. It applies to 'special rules', not just USR's.

Correct, nitpick. I will change my word usage in the future.

insaniak wrote: Yes. Quite a few of the USR's explain exactly how they interact with IC's.

But none that include the qualifying statement yakface claims is needed. These ‘explanations’ are notes on changes to the ‘no transference by association’ rule on p48. As far as I can tell “models in his squad” is the “Unless specified by the rule itself…” that is needed to allow Shrike’s special rule to affect ICs.

insaniak wrote: Not entirely true. An IC is specifically forbidden from benefiting from a unit's special rules unless they specifically include him. But that doesn't stop him from benefiting from a USR conferred from another source.

Where are you finding this distinction in source in the rules? I see no place that tells us that the source matters, let alone a statement that special rules do not confer and wargear do.

insaniak wrote: No. Again, the rule has to specifically include IC's in order to be conveyed to them.

So all the examples Puma713 gave do not also affect ICs. None of them include the qualifying IC statement.

insaniak wrote: Chapter Tactics is not a special rule conveyed by joining a unit, which is what the restriction on page 48 is referring to.

Situation: Army includes Shrike and a chaplain attached to an assault squad. By INAT, the chaplain and squad has fleet due to chapter tactics. As soon as Shrike joins the chaplain and squad, the chaplain will lose fleet. Does that make any sense?
Reason: Chapter Tactics is a special rule and chaplains are ICs. Thus (by INAT) chapter tactics, and in turn fleet, is lost when Shrike joins the unit because ‘a special rule is being conveyed by the joining unit’. Seems overly complicated.

hisdudeness wrote: As far as I can tell “models in his squad” is the “Unless specified by the rule itself…” that is needed to allow Shrike’s special rule to affect ICs.

In that case, any special rule will affect IC's joined to squads... in which case the restriction on page 48 does absolutely nothing.

insaniak wrote: Where are you finding this distinction in source in the rules?

The distinction is that the rule on page 48 which stops him from benefiting from a unit's special rules applies specifically to special rules that would affect the IC if he joins the unit.


Special rules that are conveyed by some other source than joining a unit are therefore unaffected by this rule.

Situation: Army includes Shrike and a chaplain attached to an assault squad. By INAT, the chaplain and squad has fleet due to chapter tactics. As soon as Shrike joins the chaplain and squad, the chaplain will lose fleet. Does that make any sense?

No, it doesn't make sense. It's also incorrect.

The Chaplain doesn't lose fleet because there is no rule that says that he does.

Reason: Chapter Tactics is a special rule and chaplains are ICs. Thus (by INAT) chapter tactics, and in turn fleet, is lost when Shrike joins the unit because ‘a special rule is being conveyed by the joining unit’. Seems overly complicated.

The special rule is not being conveyed by joining the unit. The special rule in question (Chapter Tactics) applies irrespective of whether or not the Chaplain joins the unit. So he's not gaining or losing the rule due to being joined to Shrike or not... so the page 48 rule does not apply.

insaniak wrote:

The distinction is that the rule on page 48 which stops him from benefiting from a unit's special rules applies specifically to special rules that would affect the IC if he joins the unit.


Special rules that are conveyed by some other source than joining a unit are therefore unaffected by this rule.

. . .

The special rule is not being conveyed by joining the unit. The special rule in question (Chapter Tactics) applies irrespective of whether or not the Chaplain joins the unit. So he's not gaining or losing the rule due to being joined to Shrike or not... so the page 48 rule does not apply.

Ok, I think this is the issue, at least regarding the disagreement between you and I.

Page 48 does NOT regard special rules gained "due to being joined" to a unit. It regards special rules which are possessed by a unit, and the effect they have (or rather, don't have) on ICs which join. That's a minor distinction, but important, because the rule as it is written doesn't say anything about special rules which affect members of the unit, but are not possessed by the unit itself.

BeRzErKeR wrote:Page 48 does NOT regard special rules gained "due to being joined" to a unit. It regards special rules which are possessed by a unit, and the effect they have (or rather, don't have) on ICs which join.

What it's dealing with is simply whether or not the unit's special rules are conferred to the joined IC, as it explains in the first two sentences.

That's a minor distinction, but important, because the rule as it is written doesn't say anything about special rules which affect members of the unit, but are not possessed by the unit itself.

Sorry, I'm not seeing how that distinction applies in this particular case.

insaniak wrote: In that case, any special rule will affect IC's joined to squads... in which case the restriction on page 48 does absolutely nothing.

Incorrect. It stops transferring of special rules to IC solely based on association, as in SM Scouts giving scout to an IC.

insaniak wrote: The distinction is that the rule on page 48 which stops him from benefiting from a unit's special rules applies specifically to special rules that would affect the IC if he joins the unit.
Special rules that are conveyed by some other source than joining a unit are therefore unaffected by this rule.

I do not see this anywhere in the rules. Can you show me a quote?

insaniak wrote: No, it doesn't make sense. It's also incorrect.
The Chaplain doesn't lose fleet because there is no rule that says that he does.

By INAT, p48 makes the chaplain lose the special rule. “IC's do not benefit from a unit's special rules unless the special rule specifically says it affects joined IC's. Shrike is a unit. Shrike has a special rule. That special rule does not specifically affect joined IC's.”

See, But Remain Unseen:
A special rule conferred by Shrike given to all models in a unit. Does not specifically state it is given to ICs. Shrike joins unit with IC, IC does not gain the special rule conferred by Shrike.

Chapter Tactics:
A special rule conferred by Shrike to all units. Does not specifically state it is given to ICs. Shrike joins unit with IC, IC does not gain the special rule conferred by Shrike.

hisdudeness wrote:Chapter Tactics:
A special rule conferred by Shrike to all units. Does not specifically state it is given to ICs. Shrike joins unit with IC, IC does not gain the special rule conferred by Shrike.

The IC doesn't gain the special rule by joining Shrike. But since the special rule is conferred without the IC needing to be joined, that's not relevant.

You're trying to take the rule on page 48 out of context.


However, so far as SBRU goes, on thinking it over, I've realised that I have to completely reverse my opinion on it. The page 48 rule doesn't block it at all.

If an IC joins the unit that includes Shrike, the unit has Infiltrate. The IC does not immediately gain Infiltrate due to joining the unit, because the Infiltrate rules do not say that an IC joining an Infiltrating unit gain it. The IC also does not gain any special rules of Shrike's simply by joining him.. but the special rule, in this case, is See But Remain Unseen. The IC does not gain Shrike's rule ... but they are subject to the effects of it. Page 48 stops the rule from being conferred upon them... it doesn't stop of from affecting them.

And the effect of SBRU is that all models in Shrike's unit gain Infiltrate.

insaniak wrote:

BeRzErKeR wrote:Page 48 does NOT regard special rules gained "due to being joined" to a unit. It regards special rules which are possessed by a unit, and the effect they have (or rather, don't have) on ICs which join.

What it's dealing with is simply whether or not the unit's special rules are conferred to the joined IC, as it explains in the first two sentences.

That's a minor distinction, but important, because the rule as it is written doesn't say anything about special rules which affect members of the unit, but are not possessed by the unit itself.

Sorry, I'm not seeing how that distinction applies in this particular case.

In this particular case it doesn't, because Shrike is a unit by his lonesome. In other cases it does; Snikrot and Apothecaries, for instance.

i think insaniak's original statement was correct.

RAW is that if an IC joins a unit that any rule that:
A) it doesnt already have and shares with the unit,
or,
B) the unit doesnt confers to the IC by specifically stating it confers to IC's (per the stubborn example)

is not automatically applied, and in some cases lost.

Specifically using your examples of the shrike and apothecary.
The rule does not meet the requirement of stating that it is given to IC's therefore, unless the IC that is joining it already has Infiltrate, then the special rule of SBRU is lost as the effect of the rule, infiltrate, is automatically lost when an IC without it joins (as per page 74/75 and the little *).

On a similar note, the apothecary's FNP does not apply unless the IC already has it, however FNP still applies to the other models in the squad as it is not automatically lost.

[edit]

Is an attached IC a model? Yes.
Is the attached IC a part of X squad? Yes.
Is Shrike attached to X squad? Yes.
Therefore, is the IC a model in Shrike's squad? Yes.
Can the IC infiltrate? No.

You've skipped a piece of logic per RAW.

Is an attached IC a model? Yes.
Is the attached IC a part of X squad? Yes.
Is Shrike attached to X squad? Yes.
Therefore, is the IC a model in Shrike's squad? Yes.
Does the IC have the special rule that the Shrike have (or equivalent)? No.
Does the special rule that the Shrike has have the words "... confers to any independant characters?" No.
Can the IC infiltrate? No.

insaniak wrote:

BeRzErKeR wrote:Page 48 does NOT regard special rules gained "due to being joined" to a unit. It regards special rules which are possessed by a unit, and the effect they have (or rather, don't have) on ICs which join.

What it's dealing with is simply whether or not the unit's special rules are conferred to the joined IC, as it explains in the first two sentences.

And I'd argue that "Seen, But Remain Unseen" is not a special rule that is being conferred to a joined IC. It is Shrike's rule. The IC doesn't gain the "Seen, But Remain Unseen" rule. It is affected by the blanket statement that the "Seen, But Remain Unseen" rule makes toward models.

The argument is not that the IC gets the special rule. It doesn't. It gets affected by one.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

insaniak wrote:

And the effect of SBRU is that all models in Shrike's unit gain Infiltrate.

Nevermind, you just made the above distinction for yourself.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Seriphis wrote:

You've skipped a piece of logic per RAW.

Is an attached IC a model? Yes.
Is the attached IC a part of X squad? Yes.
Is Shrike attached to X squad? Yes.
Therefore, is the IC a model in Shrike's squad? Yes.
Does the IC have the special rule that the Shrike have (or equivalent)? No.
Does the special rule that the Shrike has have the words "... confers to any independant characters?" No.
Can the IC infiltrate? No.

And you added something that doesn't exist. The IC doesn't have a special rule. He doesn't even gain Shrike's special rule. He is effected by Shrike's special rule, as Insaniak has admitted above.