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So... confused......pain.. nothing but pain.... AAAAGGGHHH!!!!

solkan wrote:I'm confused. Are you looking for a response from Yakface, the INAT FAQ council, or do you just want random speculation from those not involved?

Original Poster: realize that opinions are worth squat, and that the INAT FAQ council is simply a group of opinions (or "Squats" as it were.)

Talk it over with your opponent, TO, etc. They will give you a better idea of how it will all look during the game, and go from there. Don't waste more time with INAT than you have to.

Che-Vito wrote:

solkan wrote:I'm confused. Are you looking for a response from Yakface, the INAT FAQ council, or do you just want random speculation from those not involved?

Original Poster: realize that opinions are worth squat, and that the INAT FAQ council is simply a group of opinions (or "Squats" as it were.)

Talk it over with your opponent, TO, etc. They will give you a better idea of how it will all look during the game, and go from there. Don't waste more time with INAT than you have to.

Agreed. But it weighs a bit more when the INAT is used in tournaments around here.

puma713 wrote:

Che-Vito wrote:

solkan wrote:I'm confused. Are you looking for a response from Yakface, the INAT FAQ council, or do you just want random speculation from those not involved?

Original Poster: realize that opinions are worth squat, and that the INAT FAQ council is simply a group of opinions (or "Squats" as it were.)

Talk it over with your opponent, TO, etc. They will give you a better idea of how it will all look during the game, and go from there. Don't waste more time with INAT than you have to.

Agreed. But it weighs a bit more when the INAT is used in tournaments around here.

Sadly, it is. Work with the system, give input as you can. I wish there were a clearer answer. RAP, I play it be circumstance...Calgar in his full armour, infiltrating with the squad? I would encourage my opponent to think that over again.

If only the Tyranids would eat those darn Squats...

Thought I'd add my input.

Shrike's Rule:
"Shrike (and models in his squad) benefit from the infiltrate special rule."

Nowwhere in the BRB does it define what a squad is. I'd assume a squad is some sort of conglomeration of individuals, fighting as a unit. Right? Take 10 guys with a conglomeration of similar or different weapons that fight together, that makes a squad.

Shrike gives the USR to models in his squad. ICs are models. Everything is a model. They're in the squad, so he gets it.

Now, here's the kicker I think that breaks the argument that ICs don't get it. The section reads:

"When an independent character joins a unit, it might have different special rules from those of the unit. Unless specified in the rule itself (as in the 'stubborn' special rule), the unit's special rules are not conferred upon the character, and the character's special rules are not conferred upon the unit. In some cases though, the independent character or the unit may lose their special rules as a result of the character joining the unit. For example, if an independent character without the infiltrate special rule joins a unit of infiltrators during deployment, the unit cannot infiltrate."

See, the part where they don't give rules to the IC and vice versa? That's if the unit has it, and the IC doesn't. So you couldn't join a Warboss to basic kommandoes to give him infiltrate. You couldn't join a chaplain to scouts to give him infiltrate. BUT. Shrike's special rule states that he gives models in his squad the infiltrate special rule. An IC, being a model, would receive this special rule from Shrike, by default of his own ability. It's not that Shrike has infiltrate, and he happens to join a chaplain. It's that Shrike has 'See, but remain Unseen' which GIVES it to the chaplain because of said ability. Now the Chaplain doesn't gain SbRU, but he does benefit from it's effects. As soon as that Chaplain joins the squad that Shrike is in, he gets the ability. If that happens before the game, they can all infiltrate. What the rule is preventing is ICs without the rule from joining infiltrators and gaining the benefits thereof, or units with fleet joining other units with fleet to give them that rule. Shrike's rule is different because it is not a special rule that he has that the chaplain shares in, its a special rule that he has that gives infiltrate to anyone he's with.

Also: makes sense from a fluff perspective. Shrike would have trained any unit in his army in how to be sneaky, cover themselves in camouflage, etc.

Pvt.Jet - I agree with everything you have said, and it would take a VERY good argument to change my opinion.

Che-Vito wrote:Sadly, it is. Work with the system, give input as you can. I wish there were a clearer answer. RAP, I play it be circumstance...Calgar in his full armour, infiltrating with the squad? I would encourage my opponent to think that over again.

You can already have him infiltrate a squad of 10 terminators, how much suspension in disbelief is another one?

Here is the problem. The ‘Special Rule’ section on p48 is being completely misinterpreted.

All this section does is stop an attached IC from gaining or ‘absorbing’ the special rules of the joined unit based on the sole action of joining the unit. A SM Scout unit does not have a special rule that GIVES other units scout, it just has the scout USR (which p48 tells us is not transferable to attached ICs). Shrike does have a special rule that gives other models access to a special rule, this just happens to be limited to models in the same unit.

The section does not stop an IC from affected by a special rule that affects other models. The ability is allowing access to a rule (USRs etc) because of the functioning of the special rule; not because the sole action was joining the unit but because the special rule is affecting the attached IC.

I say go with the simplest interpretation - ICs can benefit since they are models. Yes, IC don't benefit from (most) USRs of a unit they join. But Shrike's rule bestows the USR to a model in his unit, an entirely different mechanism. This whole mindbending distinction between wargear and character effects is convoluted navel contemplation, IMHO.