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This is something I found out about lately.

A lot of people, most of the people say that fire dragons are destined to die after they pop a tank, I agree.But the true reason is that they don't send out thier fire dragons into the right position, and that ends up in a messy and painful death.You are supposed to wait until one of the enemy unit is seperated from the rest of their force and then send the dragons out to hunt them down.If they stay together and work together the entire game, well then wait until the last turn and then do it.With the superior speed and durability of the eldar grav tanks, you can afford the time to stay in reserve and to live through the enemy fire for a turn or 2.

Most armies don't have that much "center pieces", like a land raider or a vendetta, and 2 squads of dragons can damage thier force so severely that they can't really fight back against you, especially on the last turn.

That what I think about the dragons, give me a feedback if you think differently

Unfortunately - this tactic requires me to soak up whatever the enemy armour is flinging at me for the first four turns (assuming the last turn is 5, not a sure assumption).

Most missions are Objective based and one needs needs those Land Raiders dead before they can deliver their Termies or whatever to murderise the guardians holding that objective.

Same goes for other enemy Armour - it's very little consolation to destroy the enemy's Defiler or LRBT after it's spent four turns shelling your troops back to 1915.

Nope, as an Eldar player I couldn't disagree, if an army isn't based around a centerpiece model, such as a tank of Monstrous Creature, a unit of Fire Dragons can blow apart undefended tanks, such a unit should do reasonably well against Leman Russ tanks, Carnifexes, Chimeras, and Devilfish APCs and the like.


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I would suggest 10 or so in a WS, but don't use them to do all the dirty work for tank-killing. Use a couple of fire prisms for additional backup (and lols).

Oh, I don't think we are on the same page here Azezel, you are talking about semi-mech, I'm talking about full mech, which means I get one or two turns off by keeping my tanks in reserve and rushing in turn 5

Fire Dragons die to take out your highest priority target(s). It's a small, calculated sacrifice so that the rest of your army cleans up. If you're lucky or playing some noob who wanders random high-value targets off by themselves, then, sure, they might live to see another turn or two, but most of the time you're talking about trading an 80 point, 5-man unit for a land raider, Leman Russ squadron, etc., and happy to do so.

Given the chance to use fre dragons in such a way as to not sacrifise them is ok, but being that they are a cheap unit and they get the job done, they become an expendable piece of your force. They are much like the popular CSM termicide units, if they survive to reap more carnage on the enemy, fine, but if they get shot up after completing their mission, not big deal.

And dont forget that the fire dragons are actually giving you a double benefit. First they are removing one of your opponents best units. Secondly they are drawing fire that could instead be aimed at something else.

Its the very act of getting destroyed thats the second half of the dragons payoff.

Because of eldar spped, fire dragons can usually perform their attack early in the game. This removes an important enemy vehicle but it also ties up one (or more) enemy unit the next turn to kill the fire dragons. Its very unlikely that your opponent will ignore the dragons, and often they will go to extreme lengths to remove that 80-96 point unit.

By all means make it harder for your opponent to kill off the dragons, but by NO means delay using them for their purpose.


Sliggoth

Skarboy wrote:Fire Dragons die to take out your highest priority target(s). It's a small, calculated sacrifice so that the rest of your army cleans up. If you're lucky or playing some noob who wanders random high-value targets off by themselves, then, sure, they might live to see another turn or two, but most of the time you're talking about trading an 80 point, 5-man unit for a land raider, Leman Russ squadron, etc., and happy to do so.

This is exactly right. Your enemy's big targets will be covered by other units, unless he is a complete moron. Regarding waiting until the late game - eldar aren't that great at stand-off shooting, and their real AT firepower tends to be concentrated in 2-3 units. Every turn you delay is a turn your wave serpents, including the fire dragons' ride, can be stunned/immobilised/destroyed by long-range autocannons/missiles/lascannons.

Well, I recently battled mech SW with my mech Eldar army (1750 pts).
My opponent, hello Micha, starts the game and sends his LRC straight towards my front ranks.
I didn't hesitate to send in my 2 squads of Fire Dragons in Serpents to kill that tank.
Indeed, the first unit popped it and the 2nd unit, used as a backup,
decimated the passengers.
This was key to win the game.

Waiting for a vehicle that will never seperate from the others before crashing into your lines is a terrible tactic.

Much better to sacrifice their 80 for 250 and leave the terminators slogging from midfield instead of in your face.

kill dem stunties wrote:Waiting for a vehicle that will never seperate from the others before crashing into your lines is a terrible tactic.

Much better to sacrifice their 80 for 250 and leave the terminators slogging from midfield instead of in your face.

Well, in this game, the SW rushed forward with two Rhinos and an LRC.
At the end, my Seer Council ate two GH units and the BC in the LRC got shot to pieces - the battle report is somewhere at Dakka.

I wonder how I am going ot get to the enemy vehicle if it is packed within a thousand layers of protection

Wings of Purity wrote:I wonder how I am going ot get to the enemy vehicle if it is packed within a thousand layers of protection

The best protection it's likely to get is a 4+ coversave. Everybody in the squad has a freakin' meltagun dude it's not rocket science to nuke the tank. At least one of the shots is getting through.

meh, been playing eldar for a while now and my dragons ALWAYS die. Its inevitable. Once they get out, no matter how you position them or how you position their wavesperent, people WILL shoot them and they will die. They become priority #1 once out.

Also, relying one someone "seperating" a tank from their force is about as good of advice as "hoping someone doesnt know WTF they are doing".

Silly tactics are silly

A decade of competitive Eldar player experience has taught me that Fire Dragons are poor doomed unfortunate souls.

Tanks and transports are almost always high priority targets being capable of inflicting or delivering exceptional damage upon your force… to say nothing of the fact that vehicles and transports are an optimal way to contest objectives in late game. For this reason it is essential that these targets be disabled both early and completely. Fire Dragons are idea for this and then they die… no opponent is going to allow 5 or 6 fusion guns to reign death upon his expensive units with impunity. The Eldar player can’t afford to wait until his opponent (an opponent who is more than likely aware of what fire dragons can do and conscious of the fact that they’re in the Eldar players list), for some inexplicable reason, decides to leave an armored target isolated… nor can he wait until his opponent is able to kill or disable the fire dragons before they’re able to perform their roll. He has to kill it, kill it now, and kill it with fusion guns… and if it costs 80 to 96 points to do it, so be it.

Every Eldar player ought to try to keep his fire dragons alive but, in all seriousness, unless your opponent is an idiot or you’re extremely lucky, you’ll be pulling Fire Dragons off the table if for no other reason than they were too close to a vehicle that went super nova.

So that is their fate...Okay then

But is there any other anti tank just as effective in the eldar army?

Wings of Purity wrote:So that is their fate...Okay then

But is there any other anti tank just as effective in the eldar army?

Nope. From an efficiency perspective Fire Dragons mounted in a wave serpent are the most efficient anti-AV unit in the game.

Next closest is, if I recall correctly, meltagun armed Chaos Space Marine Havoks in a Rhino or IG veterans w/ melta’s in a valkirie. It’s been a while since I’ve done a mathematical analysis so I could be missing something out of Blood Angels, Space Wolves, or Tyranids.

nope

3 Tyranid Zoanthropes in a MS are gonna be up there as long as they don't have a librarian, but 3 BS4 S10 Ap1 lance shots will bust any armor they drop next to

Ive had some luck deploying and subsequently rescuing my fire dragons by attacking flanks with the dragons and dropping off defend/shield avengers next to them to draw fire and receive assaults. Of course that also results in having to use harlequins to go rescue the embattled tar-pit avengers after the fire dragons escape, but synergy in team work is what Phil Kelly would have us believe the entire army is about, right?

Other than giving defensive weapons and assault units some else to shoot at in addition to the dragons, the dragons are screwed

I surprised that the tactic of deploying a Fortuneseer with the Fire Dragons hasn't come up more often. If you can screen the Dragons to give them a 4+ cover save, you'll require your opponent to devote half again the amount of firepower that he would normally to take them out. It's not even necessary to have the Farseer jump out, either; it's perfectly viable to leave him inside the Dragon's Wave Serpent if that's more tactically desirable.

Chimaera2000 wrote:I surprised that the tactic of deploying a Fortuneseer with the Fire Dragons hasn't come up more often. If you can screen the Dragons to give them a 4+ cover save, you'll require your opponent to devote half again the amount of firepower that he would normally to take them out. It's not even necessary to have the Farseer jump out, either; it's perfectly viable to leave him inside the Dragon's Wave Serpent if that's more tactically desirable.

It’s a cost/benefit issue. It doesn’t make much sense to insert an 85 point model into an 80 to 96 point unit in hopes of adding additional survivability when your opponent is still more than likely going to be successful at destroying the unit – only NOW with an 85 point fortunseer attached. The liability is compounded by the fact that the fortunseers force multiplication capabilities are often better utilized elsewhere within the Eldar list.

Now, talk about a 10 man Fire Dragon squad with exarch and Fuegan attached, it makes much more sense to attach a fortunseer but I personally have found limited return on investment with both phoenix lords and fire dragon exarchs in particular.

As we've talked about, they are supposed to draw fire upon themselves, and fortune makes them draw more and more ifre, thats what we want.

Thanks dude!

Wings of Purity wrote:As we've talked about, they are supposed to draw fire upon themselves, and fortune makes them draw more and more ifre, thats what we want.

Thanks dude!

I think that’s a bit of a mischaracterization of my position on Fire Dragons. I wouldn’t say Fire Dragons are “supposed” to draw fire, nor do many Eldar players want them to draw fire, nor are they equipped to draw fire.

A more accurate characterization is that Fire Dragons, by their nature, will likely die due to a number of circumstances; threat level, proximity to the enemy, T3, 4+ save, etc. If you accept that fact, than it’s rational to expend the Fire Dragon point investment in the most efficient way possible (try to make an early and good “point trade”). In the interest of efficiency, it is not rational to try and mitigate their fate at the expense of an opportunity to make such a trade, nor is it rational to tie other, potentially expensive, units to their liabilities (threat, proximity, T, Sv, etc.).

If you can keep your Dragons alive through clever use of situational tactics, that is fantastic, and any sane Eldar player would encourage that.

Look, fluff wise we MUST save every life we have as eldar, but game wise, I think trying to save some of your most important tank bustas is more than neccessary.Taking a farseer with fortune and 10 fire dragons could be a deathstar in your army, and even if your enemy target all thier fire on them(talking about 1k here, not high points games where fire power could actually be devastating), they are most likely to survive and blast something else next turn.

A lot of players hate fire dragons and kill them the turn they come outta thier tanks, but it is possible to stop that if you use your WHOLE ARMY well enough.My all comer list has 2 squads of Dire avengers, 2 Squads of fire dragons and tons of wave serpents.In a 1000pt, most players has two powerful tanks and a good number of infantry, and that is why I design my force like that. I could cripple my opponent in about turn 2 when my Avengers fire and my dragons start blasting


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Again, they are not dead FOR SURE, it's only a reasonable chance that they will die

That's a "deathstar" that's just waiting to get assaulted off the board, and it won't take much effort to do it either. It's not rocket surgery to figure out that if you are within melta range of a transport you are within assault range of the passengers.

If their survival is necessary for the win, fortune them, again the farseer does not need to be in the unit, in the vehicle, have LOS, can be in another unit in another vehicle...

Move 12 and dump fire dragons, move buddy wave serpent 12 along with them, fire dragons to destroy tank, use secret star engines to move between enemy and dragons. This will give them a cover save (remember fortune) as well as make any potential assaults have to move around the newly planted wave serpent, which if you do it right, may deny the assault entirely. It should in the least set up a deadly counter assault if the enemy still tries for the dragons. Then if they live, they hop in their wave serpent, or the screening one that just dumped a seer council on foot/banshees/harlequins/etc, to melta another day.

Effective anti-tank needs AP 1 shells, guns or bombs.
Bright lancesor lascannons are too ineffective for this.
Reasons are cover saves and the modified armor penetration table.

The thing about having AP 1 is only if you have a low strength. Say between 6 and 8 and you don't have any special rules.

But most people don't use fire dragons as anti tank anymore right?

Although they are made for the job but they are just so much better at killing other more important units