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Working with a few of the models I have.

Iron Lich Asphyxious
Cankerworm
Deathjack
Stalker

Cephalyx Overlords
2 x 6 Cephalyx slaver & drudges
2 x Necrotech
Withershadow Combine

Trying to use the theme lists as a guide for what to take.

The tier lists (theme lists) are super specialized and afford an interesting play avenue but they aren't my recommendation for a first army.

I like some of the choices you made but I think you will find the others to be too situational and not universally useful. I still have my suspicions that the tier lists are mean to be 75 points plus, that way you can have a core of the usual with the specialized units to combo with.

Canker worm (yes) this guy is fantastic and just hilarious when he steals an opponents weapon

Death jack (YES!) simply one of the most incredible heavies in the game, this being said he costs a boat load of points for a jack without reach.

Stalker (probably not) you are seriously lacking arc nodes which is a staple for most cryx forces Aspy is no exception.

Try either some Bone jack Wretches or the Deathripper at 4 points a pop they are simply fantastic

Cephalyx (maybe) am ambivalent about them they are good but can easily get wiped off the board same goes for the slavers/drudges

Wither shadow (sure) they bring a lot of utility to any army. They can put the hurt on warjacks(light) or sweep up low arm infantry.

Necrotechs (sometimes) healing you jacks is awesome but since you have 2 jacks in your list that can heal them selves i see two of them as a waste, I know they can summon scrap thralls but normally when they are that far up on the board where they can do that they get shot or a stray template wipes them out.

A unit you may want to consider is either Bane thralls or bane knights these two units are just fantastic for their points, I tend to prefer the knights even though they cost more. They both have weapon master the thralls debuff and enemy armor which makes them hit just a touch harder than the knights. The knights have two things I really like the first is ghostly which allows them to move through any terrain even buildings as long as they can completely move through it. Knights also have reach which extends their threat range effectively giving them a 10" charge.

If you decide to run the thralls or knights another unit to consider is Bane lord tartarus he hits just as hard as the thralls, has reach, thresher, and when he kills a living model you get to add either a thrall or a knight to his unit.

Another nifty model to take with Aspy is the skarlock effectively giving you an extra 3 focus to cast spells with.

If you're new to the game then definitely you should wait a while before you try "tiers". For pGaspy I'd strongly recommend some bonechickens as he NEEDS arcnodes.

I have run this in a few learning games.

Aspy
Deathjack
3 "bone chickens"
2 slayers

I dunno if this is a good use of focus but I like running in with a bone chicken against a heavy jack boosting the first hit and then boosting damage 2 times. Seems like they can roll out a ton of damage that way for such a small unit.

I play a crap ton of 40k so what is comparable to the 1850 type army in warmachine points? I am going to try and get an army ready for Gencon (yes I know jumping in with both feet) But I am gifted with painting skills and can probably take a few awards home for that and at least make some entry fees back.

General tournament size will be either 35 or 50 points.

1850 is closer to 50 in size but the most common tournament size I have seen is 35.

Normally you don't use the bone chickens as assaulters but it does work. Arc nodes are worth their weight in gold for the Cryx you can hit your opponent with spells while staying hidden or for the most part out of danger. They also force him to pay attention to them because if he doesn't he risks being assassinated by spells or at the very least softened up by them.

Awesome, once you finish painting some stuff post some pics I would love to see them and I know several other people on here would as well.

you ran asphy with that many jacks...

Wow...

He has not got a lot of jacksupport and normally deathjack and 2 bonejacks would be enough. the rest can be filled in with troops... knights thralls aetc...

Clay Williams wrote:I like running in with a bone chicken against a heavy jack boosting the first hit and then boosting damage 2 times.

And how exactly do you achieve 3 boosted melee attacks with only 3 focus?

sustained attack of the bonechicken.
You get the first attack and boost that to hit. The rest is just buying extra attacks that hit automatically.

so move into combat and boost to hit on attack. 1 focus
buy extra attack that auto-hits. 2 focus
buy extra attack that auto-hits. 3 focus

Only problem is that the attacks have to be against the same enemy model. except for jacks and casters, most will not stand up to the strength of the attacks...

LordRavurion wrote:sustained attack of the bonechicken.
You get the first attack and boost that to hit. The rest is just buying extra attacks that hit automatically.

so move into combat and boost to hit on attack. 1 focus
buy extra attack that auto-hits. 2 focus
buy extra attack that auto-hits. 3 focus

Only problem is that the attacks have to be against the same enemy model. except for jacks and casters, most will not stand up to the strength of the attacks...

Yes, that makes sense. But he said

boosting the first hit and then boosting damage 2 times.

To me, that translated as making 2 extra attacks, and boosting the damage on each. Which would require the jack to have 5 Focus.

Could be the new terminology to him I guess.

Basically it sprouted 2 more jaws from its eyes.

As for the Jack-heavy pGaspy list, I agree with those that say it seems too much.

In general, the list with the Gaspy's is used to deliver him to where he needs to be.
In addition, for pGaspy, he looks like he benefits from a more flexible list because he is a flexible caster.

Note: I am a WM/H newbie as well .

skrulnik wrote:

LordRavurion wrote:sustained attack of the bonechicken.
You get the first attack and boost that to hit. The rest is just buying extra attacks that hit automatically.

so move into combat and boost to hit on attack. 1 focus
buy extra attack that auto-hits. 2 focus
buy extra attack that auto-hits. 3 focus

Only problem is that the attacks have to be against the same enemy model. except for jacks and casters, most will not stand up to the strength of the attacks...

Yes, that makes sense. But he said

boosting the first hit and then boosting damage 2 times.

To me, that translated as making 2 extra attacks, and boosting the damage on each. Which would require the jack to have 5 Focus.

Could be the new terminology to him I guess.

Gimmie a break I have been playing for 2 weeks! A grand total of 3 games =P But yes that is what I ment sooo sorry hehe.

And as far as the list with all the jacks, thats what I have as far as models go from when I first bought stuff a few years ago.

I havent tried much casting yet, as everyone in my group is just starting warmachine and all the starter sets come with Jacks jacks jacks. Casting doesnt seem like it does all that much damage to a warjack and it is better to use that focus to pound on another jack? I dunno like I said we really havent been using units except for one game with cygnar where my opponent used riflemen that can shoot twice if they sit still? I just ran deathjack at them and ate them.

missed the boosted damage, apologies... in that case it is indeed impossible with only 3 focus...

maybe he read it as autoboosting all when using a focus to buy a extra attack..

Clay Williams wrote:

skrulnik wrote:

LordRavurion wrote:sustained attack of the bonechicken.
You get the first attack and boost that to hit. The rest is just buying extra attacks that hit automatically.

so move into combat and boost to hit on attack. 1 focus
buy extra attack that auto-hits. 2 focus
buy extra attack that auto-hits. 3 focus

Only problem is that the attacks have to be against the same enemy model. except for jacks and casters, most will not stand up to the strength of the attacks...

Yes, that makes sense. But he said

boosting the first hit and then boosting damage 2 times.

To me, that translated as making 2 extra attacks, and boosting the damage on each. Which would require the jack to have 5 Focus.

Could be the new terminology to him I guess.

Gimmie a break I have been playing for 2 weeks! A grand total of 3 games =P But yes that is what I ment sooo sorry hehe.

And as far as the list with all the jacks, thats what I have as far as models go from when I first bought stuff a few years ago.

I havent tried much casting yet, as everyone in my group is just starting warmachine and all the starter sets come with Jacks jacks jacks. Casting doesnt seem like it does all that much damage to a warjack and it is better to use that focus to pound on another jack? I dunno like I said we really havent been using units except for one game with cygnar where my opponent used riflemen that can shoot twice if they sit still? I just ran deathjack at them and ate them.

CH-Ch-Chain Quote!

No worries. I thought you might have meant that you were buying an attack but calling it Boosting the attack. Which can be an easy mix when learning.

You are obviously in the Rock'em Sock'em stage of learning the game. Spells come into their own when you target another Warcaster.
Put Gaspy's Scything Touch on your jack, then do what you described, or Drop a POW14 hellfire on someones head, boosting the damage, and it adds quickly.

One of the spell assassination things you can do with Gaspy is get an arc node close.
Then use up all his focus casting Hellfire, boosting to hit or damage as needed.
Then reload Focus with his feat and do it again. Very few casters can stand up to that.

Of course, you can get the result my buddy got. Dropping All focus on eMags head, putting a total of 1 point damage on him.

Hrm, lots of things to try out on game night hehe.

I still need to come up with a good 30pnt list.

Also I want to ask this question because I think me and my buddies are missing something. Why are "units" so good in warmachine? I keep wondering why I would take a unit over a jack?

While warjacks are great at being big hard-hitting tanks, they tend to be vulnerable to being picked apart or out-maneuvered. Infantry, on the other hand, tend not to hit as hard individually, but they pack a great punch in groups (especially with elite units like Doom Reavers or Exemplar). Cheaper infantry units, like Zealots or Mechanithralls, make great meatshields and bulletsinks due to high model count, and still tend to be able to demolish stuff through volume of fire (zealots with their firebombs and the McThralls with their combo-attacks) or combined attacks.

One of the easiest ways to look at it is this: In 35 points, I can field the Butcher and 4 warjacks. In the same 35 points, it's possible to field Gaspy, a pair of bone chickens, and nearly 50 thralls of various sorts. While my 4 heavies can take apart anything in the Cryx list individually, the sheer amount of zombies will easily drag down the Khadorans if I don't manage to shove a Spriggan down the Lich's throat in a hurry.

Think of it this way. A Heavy starts in contact with part of a unit, loaded with 3 Focus. Assume he doesn't spend any to boost, he gets 2+3 attacks on average.
Or he Tramples and gets as many as he can.

VS

A unit of 10 McThralls Are engaged. They each get 2 attacks @ P+S11 or a single @ P+S15. Either way, they have the potential to make twice as many hits (at a lower P+S than the Jack).

Now 2 maybe 3 McThralls are needed in the right situation to box a heavy. So a potential 3 heavys wrecked in a turn. Whereas the Jack probably can get 2, if he has the right skills.

If I am incorrect about any of this, someone please correct me. I do not want to mislead any new players with bad advice.

skrulnik wrote:Think of it this way. A Heavy starts in contact with part of a unit, loaded with 3 Focus. Assume he doesn't spend any to boost, he gets 2+3 attacks on average.
Or he Tramples and gets as many as he can.

VS

A unit of 10 McThralls Are engaged. They each get 2 attacks @ P+S11 or a single @ P+S15. Either way, they have the potential to make twice as many hits (at a lower P+S than the Jack).

Now 2 maybe 3 McThralls are needed in the right situation to box a heavy. So a potential 3 heavys wrecked in a turn. Whereas the Jack probably can get 2, if he has the right skills.

If I am incorrect about any of this, someone please correct me. I do not want to mislead any new players with bad advice.

Glady,

An average heavy statline is roughly 12 DEF and 18 ARM with 30 or so boxes. Each noncharging mcthrall using a combo strike will do 4 damage (non combo striking a mere 1 damage per hit) and has a slighlty better than 50% chance of hitting, so 3 is only averaging about 8 damage. Even factoring in charging you only get up to 7.5 per thrall (3.5 per non combo strike) for an average of a mere 15 damage. Depending on distribution, this could easily not even get a system. People really overguess what mcthralls can do to a jack without the right debuffs. Their ability to fight units also lags pretty bad without debuffs because they of their low MAT. Anything with a good DEF of 14+ will take them far too long to actually kill and your opponent can often walk away giving free strikes without bad odds of getting away unharmed.

Without debuffing the enemy unit first or adding buffs to them (rare but some cryx casters can) they really aren't that stellar. They're about right for the points.

Mind you, a full unit of 10 (not counting Brutes) would wreck the 'Jack pretty well. Even with only 5 hitting, you've got about 37.5 boxes on average, enough to total anything.

Of course, that's technically not actually doable, given the geometry of base sizes. You can fit around 8 or so, which still yields a totalled Ironclad on the charge. Not bad for 5 points. ^.^

My point was more about the damage potential.

3 McThralls with Combostrikes will hit a heavy jack that isn't Cryx.
On average dice, its not impressive.
But the reason they are good is Because of the buffs/debuffs avialable to them.

Averages do not show the potential.
On the charge, a McThrall can do 15+3d6 for a range of 18-33.

Say you roll average, so you do 15+9=24. That is 6 boxes.
If you have debuffed with Crippling Grasp you put 8 boxes on it.
That is average.

All I need is for 2 to roll average, and the 3rd to roll a 12+.
Wrecked heavy.
If I am worried about hitting, there will be 4-5 per jack for insurance.

People really overguess what mcthralls can do to a jack without the right debuffs.

Attacking a heavy without a debuff is a last resort situation. So I do not believe you can consider McThralls without factoring that in.
Without buffs, McThralls are a useless wall of dead flesh. What makes them good is the interaction with the rest of the Cryx units.

THe potential is there for a ten McThrall unit to Wreck 3 Heavies.
I never go in thinking I can't wreck it, what I worry about is hitting.

Also, re your example, what reason is there to not Combostrike a Heavy?

3 McThralls with Combostrikes will hit a heavy jack that isn't Cryx.

Not really, out of the 5 major factions, the average DEF for a heavy ends up being around 12. Cygnar and Ret usually have 12's, Cryx usually have 13's and Khador and Menoth usually have 10's. Unless your fighting Khador or Menoth you're hitting a lttle better than 50% (or a little worse in the case of cryx heavies). Khador and Menoth both compensate somehwhat by having better armor and more boxes.

Say you roll average, so you do 15+9=24. That is 6 boxes.
If you have debuffed with Crippling Grasp you put 8 boxes on it.
That is average.

You're average isn't 9 on 3D6, it's 10.5.

Most debuffs are upkeeps so I severely doubt you're debuffing all 3 heavy jacks in your example unless your caster has a feat that does so (or is pSKarre).

Is it possible with all the right spells/feats up? sure, but then so are alot of things that aren't neccesarily reflexive of what a unit is capable of in most cases.

Saying 2-3 mechthralls can wreck a heavy jack is like saying the Mage Hunter Strike Force can kill Caine. If the caster is Ravyn, they can do it from the next zip code with no problems, but with any other ret caster they aren't going to have any better luck against DEF 17 than any other unit.

So I finally got another game in playing 15pnts.

Iron Lich
Seether
3 x Deathripper

I moved my deathrippers up fast and trailed them with the seether for a little meele support. I tried going for the hellfire assassination but missed with 3 casts (I poped the feat to keep pumping spells into the enemy warcaster) I guess it was a good idea to pop the feat with this oppertunity to lay into him. Anyway the first of the 4 casts did take out some little focus battery that was in the way of the warcaster.

I learned that a seether can be pretty awesome against a juggernaught. 4's to hit and the free headbut with 4 focus = dead dread, it was unexpectedly powerful but fun to do hehe. He also had a lancer I was able to chew apart with the 3 rippers. The other models were some 3 person gun unit and the lil gobbo merc, I forget the warcasters name.

Gunna play 35 pnts tonight yay.

I was looking at ways to gather souls ... is it legal to get a unit of cheep models that provide souls when they die, kill them yourself, then pump out tons of hellfires the next turn?

Most of the soul collecting abilities now specify "enemy models" or similar language to prevent sacrificial souls.

Clay Williams wrote:So I finally got another game in playing 15pnts.

Iron Lich
Seether
3 x Deathripper

I moved my deathrippers up fast and trailed them with the seether for a little meele support. I tried going for the hellfire assassination but missed with 3 casts (I poped the feat to keep pumping spells into the enemy warcaster) I guess it was a good idea to pop the feat with this oppertunity to lay into him. Anyway the first of the 4 casts did take out some little focus battery that was in the way of the warcaster.

I learned that a seether can be pretty awesome against a juggernaught. 4's to hit and the free headbut with 4 focus = dead dread, it was unexpectedly powerful but fun to do hehe. He also had a lancer I was able to chew apart with the 3 rippers. The other models were some 3 person gun unit and the lil gobbo merc, I forget the warcasters name.

Gunna play 35 pnts tonight yay.

I was looking at ways to gather souls ... is it legal to get a unit of cheep models that provide souls when they die, kill them yourself, then pump out tons of hellfires the next turn?

There's your mistake, you should have used Breath of Corruption for the assassination instead. Same cost but it's an AoE. Get your arcnode close to the enemy caster and send Breath after Breath into their face. If your jack is close enough, even a miss will still end up hitting the target due to maximum scatter distance. (half of the distance between you and your target if I remember correctly)

Of course this tactic is all but worthless against a Hordes army; their casters (Warlocks) can transfer all of their damage to their jacks (beasts), and depending on the army the opponent should have 1 or 2 beasts with lots of damage sponge potential.

Clay Williams wrote:Working with a few of the models I have.

Iron Lich Asphyxious
Cankerworm
Deathjack
Stalker

Cephalyx Overlords
2 x 6 Cephalyx slaver & drudges
2 x Necrotech
Withershadow Combine

Trying to use the theme lists as a guide for what to take.

Didn't see this one earlier, and scanning thru the thread I didn't see anyone mention this...

You've got the wrong Asphyxious there. I don't know if it's just a typo but the models you have there are for the theme list of LICH LORD Asphyxious, not IRON LICH Asphyxious. That is a somewhat subtle but Very important difference.

As for what to add to the list, as others said I would drop the Stalker, pick up a Bone Chicken or two (which ones are personal preference but I like wrenches myself), a unit of Bane Knights and Bane Lord Tartarus(auce).

His theme list allows a Skarlock Thrall, but Do Not get it for the Lich Lord, as he doesn't really have good spells for it to cast. I'd probably drop the Necrotechs too unless you have an odd point or two that needs filling.

That was a typo aduro, I have both of the models and now know the difference between them. I kinda like Iron lich asphy better at the moment.

Well, tried out canker worm and the bane knights last night in a 35pnt game.

Am I correct that the bane knights get 4d6 dmg on the charge? +1d6 for weapon master and +1d6 for the charge? If so they hit like a ton of bricks!

I liked the worm, I ended up stealing a cygnar gun and that was fun to play with. Run up 6, shoot, then fall back.

I played

Iron lich
3x bone chickens (the 6 inch shooty ones, didnt like them as much)
canker worm
death jack
10x bane knights
bloat thrall

Again this is experimentation phase for me, just trying out units here and there. I was so impressed with the bane knights I was thinking of dropping deathjack and taking another unit with tartarus.

I was a little impressed with the bloat thrall untill he got targeted by jack shooting and fell over like a wet towel. He did still do a good bit of damage before he left the table and is only 2 pnts.

One more question. How do units work when moving and shooting? Do activate each model in the unit seperatly and finish all of its actions or move the unit, shoot the unit? Again with charges and units ... Do you charge each model 1 at a time or do you charge as a whole?

You move them all one at a time, and after they've all moved, you attack/shoot with them one at a time.

And yes, Bane Knights hit like a ton of bricks. I would not get a second unit though, rather get The Sauce for the unit you have, and get Bane Thralls with the UA for a second unit.

Use the Stealthy Thralls in whatever open field/corridor is on the field, while the Knights can zip thru forests and other terrain more easily.

Ok looking at this now

Iron Lich
cankerworm
2 x deathripper
10 bane knights
Bane lord tart
10 bane thralls
- officer and standard bearer

3 points left over ... what should I do with them?

Put in three Machine Wraiths, and swap Iron Lich for the Lich Lord and you're looking at my army.

You are using lich lord for his feat to recharge with all the dead units right? If you bring back tart in this way can he still create units?

How exactly does the machine wraith work? Is its ability an attack leaving it vulnerable for your opponents turn if it gets expulsed from its victim? Also in the main rule book it says it can be damaged by animi ... what is that?

I know lots of questions but I am starting to see more into the rules now heh.

While I like the Lich Lord's Feat, it's not the reason I play him. My more favorite things are;

A.) The clouds he puts out. Few things are more gratifying than running your Deathjack or Bane Knights and The Sauce forward, putting up a wall of clouds in front of them, and then seeing the look on your opponents face when they realize there's damn little they can do about it.

B.) Death Knell is a super killy spell, and when combined with Daemortus' long range soul sucking abilities it can deal a solid blow to your opponents forces, while ensuring that you're even Stronger next turn.

Yes, if you bring back The Sauce with the Feat, and he kills enemy models, that will add new guys to any surviving units you have within range.

The Wraith possession thing is not an attack, it's a *Action. That means you get your 7" move, and a 1" range on the *Action and the `Jack is yours. The first thing this does is it means your opponent can not allocate any Focus to that Jack on their turn, because it's not their Jack during that phase of the game. The second thing it does is force them to Spend Focus to try and kick you back out, which usually isn't hard because most Warcasters will have a +2 on the roll over you. Should they fail any though it's that much more Focus they have to waste on it.

If your opponent has a Jack Marshaled `Jack then that's all the better, as they have no Focus to kick you out, and can only attempt to do it by now attacking their former asset.

When you do get kicked out, you come out Incorporeal, which is nice because unless they happen to have some units with Magical Weapons around then it tends to require their Caster to deal with you, and that involves anything from moving him where they might not want to otherwise, to spending Focus on spells to kill the Wraith.

The things to watch out for with Wraiths are non-Casters with Magical Weapons, as your goal with the Wraith (imho) is to make them use their Caster to deal with it.