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Ok I'll start off by saying I've already ordered my gamers edition, and I've bought into the hype and can't wait to give it a proper tryout, but, why the doom and gloom?

I don't play tournaments, I game with friends for fun, so, I'll use which ever rule set I feel like, right back to the battered rogue trader set on the shelf, so why do you feel you MUST play by the most recent rule set?

If people didn't switch to a new ed. then they wouldn't be able to whine about how x is broken or how they have to buy new stuff. And true wargamers never miss out on the opportunity to gripe about things.

Because it's easier to find a pick up game.

It's just the vocal minority which talk about the doom and gloom of a new edition. It's all the same the world over.

It's also possible that some are tourny players and don't want to have to spend more money in order to update their armies to continue to be competitive in said tournys.

In either case, I feel that the majority of people are fine with it. Some are even enthusiastic about it.

i'll play 8th edition because its better than the other ones (except for artillery shooting which makes my vampire blocks cry). Its a BIG improvement! (I know, been playing it for the last week or so with my store preview copy, nah nah nahnah nah

I think every store got a preview copy, I've read my store's copy all ready

Generally, it makes sense to play with the newest rule set.
The rule sets usually get improved (more consistent and adequate) from edition to edition.

I can't tell you about WHFB, but I can say that there was a lot of whining before 40k 5th ed came out (I did some myself). The reason I play 5th ed, rather than 4th (other than that I can't find anyone who would still want to play 4th) is that 5th ed is a much better rules set than was 4th.

I'm sure there will be a lot of grumbling as people have to retrain their brain to new rules, but, unless GW does something catastrophic, I'm sure it will be considered the superior rules set.

It's easier to find people to play, mainly. There's really no need if you have people to play with though, and old books sell cheaper when new ones come out

In addition to the above (easier to find a game) 7th edition is also very, very unbalanced. I've said this elsewhere, but I played a game against Daemons of Chaos and killed 4 models while being tabled. This past weekend I played against O&G and only lost a handful of models myself while tabling my opponent.

These imbalances look to be somewhat addressed by 8th edition. There are some balance concerns (as there always are) such as the powerful spells being extremely powerful, and armies that can take cheap heroes having no limit to the number they can take. But on the whole, the excesses of 7th edition seem to have been put in check, and block infantry has a fighting chance now.

So those are some great reasons to play 8th edition

RiTides wrote:In addition to the above (easier to find a game) 7th edition is also very, very unbalanced.

The army books are what is unbalanced. The rules themselves, not so much so.

My biggest Gripe about 8th is that my FLGS has scheduled a tournament for the end of next month/first of August. Between this and the rulebook costs, I will A) not be able to wait of the much more practical minibook to be availiable, and b) not be able to update lizardmen for the tourney, leaving them effectively Crippled. On the bright side, pre-order discount at said FLGS for the rulebook, and 8k of Dwarves should see me through.

Crazy_Carnifex wrote:My biggest Gripe about 8th is that my FLGS has scheduled a tournament for the end of next month/first of August. Between this and the rulebook costs, I will A) not be able to wait of the much more practical minibook to be availiable, and b) not be able to update lizardmen for the tourney, leaving them effectively Crippled. On the bright side, pre-order discount at said FLGS for the rulebook, and 8k of Dwarves should see me through.

My store is doing the same thing so I'll just sit this one out and wait for the mini book.

Ailaros wrote:I can't tell you about WHFB, but I can say that there was a lot of whining before 40k 5th ed came out (I did some myself). The reason I play 5th ed, rather than 4th (other than that I can't find anyone who would still want to play 4th) is that 5th ed is a much better rules set than was 4th.

I'm sure there will be a lot of grumbling as people have to retrain their brain to new rules, but, unless GW does something catastrophic, I'm sure it will be considered the superior rules set.

I can bet most of the crumbling comes from 2 sources:

1) Forcing you to buy new models and trash your old army. Sure you can play with your old list but its going to be no where near as fun or usable and you will have to buy more just to fill in the changes. This one effects mostly tournament players or people that make a list buy the models and stick with that. As long as you stay ahead of the curve and sell whatever you're board with you'll be fine.

2) Casual gamers, for some reason a majority of people in this hobby dont have a 'n clue how to play any of the games and they muddle along with their friends who combined kind of know the rulebook. These people now have to re learn the game they already didnt know and were confused about.

The question asked was about why to bother updating to the new rules, not why people grumble. Let's keep it on track and avoid inadvertantly insulting people, hmm?


To answer the question (at least as I see it) if you're playing with a set group of people who all like a particular ruleset, then there is certainly no pressing need to upgrade unless you really want to do so. People do still play older editions of 40K and WHFB, either just using the material that was published for those editions, writing their own add-ons, or buying the newer army books and converting them to suit.

But the wider gaming community will stick with the new hotness. Provided the new edition is good, it tends to breath a new life into a game, as it forces people to learn new tactics and change their armies around. There's also that slow progression towards a better ruleset... The ultimate aim of releasing a new edition is, after all, improving the game.

Opinions of course may vary on how successfully that is achieved in any given case.


So if you're looking to play in clubs or stores, or enter tournaments, upgrading is pretty much a requirement.


Of course, you can always stick with the old rules and try to play against people anyway... I remember when 3rd edition 40K was released, we had a guy hanging around YMDC for a couple of months who kept chiming into rules discussions with 2nd edition rules. When it was pointed out to him that the current ruleset was 3rd edition, and the 2nd edition rules no longer counted, he replied 'But I like 2nd edition...'

Hi all.
Well lets have a look a what else people could do if they want a 'latest rule set' for a 25mm fantasy battle game.

Armies of Arcana 5th ed , rule book £20.
WHFB rule book £55(?)

Armies of Arcana has 23 army lists FREE .These lists have been extensilvey play tested and have provable levels of balance, and are available NOW!

GW will charge you £18(?) for each of thier 13(?) army books that will be updated over the next 5 or 6 years.( So that costs players OVER £250 for ALL the rules and army lists.)And its doubtful GW will maintain game balance throughout this period.(They never have before. )

Armies of Arcana can use ANY 15mm / 25mm/28mm minatures .So YOUR army can be built to YOUR preferences and budget.(Picking from the offerings of any of the 30+ minature manufactures that suits your needs the best.)

GW insist WHFB players can ONLY use Citadel Minatures in GW stores.So you pay 2 to 7 times as much for the Citadel Minatures for your game.
But you get the privaledge of being able to 'play' (intoduction games) in a (overcrowded) GW B&M store.(And having to leave, when the 1 man running the store wants to visit the toilet. )

So for the 'priveledge' of 'playing' in a GW store, and the 'convenience' of a one stop shop.You pay a VERY large premium .
You may feel this extra £200 or more for your 'GW hobby' is worth it .
Others getting JUST as much fun with the wider TTMG hobby may not.

Some gamers may not bother with the WHFB 8th ed,as they feel GW no longer offer good value for money.

You pay your money and make your chioce.

Happy gaming.
Lanrak.

Well, for my part, I'm in the military and so move every few years. It seems like it makes it a lot easier for me to find oponents when I play the most recent edition of a particluar rules set.

skyth wrote:

RiTides wrote:In addition to the above (easier to find a game) 7th edition is also very, very unbalanced.

The army books are what is unbalanced. The rules themselves, not so much so.

Well, the rules (like any) are open to abuse, and the latest army books abused the loopholes. To close those loopholes, GW could either re-release the new army books toned down, re-release all the old army books to beef them up, or just alter the main ruleset.

I think the last option is the simplest of these, and really the only realistic one. So while it is the latest army books that have unbalanced fantasy, the only real way to fix it was to change the core rules. Even if DoC didn't exist, the weakness of armies like Ogres and O&G would remain.

Just my $0.02

Like others have said, 8th balances the game much better than 7th. And all hobby events will now use 8th. So if I want to go to any, I don't really have a choice but to convert.

My personal opinion: i have no issues with anything i've read in 8th edition. I'm also confused at all the whining. I'll learn to play 8th as i'm in a gaming club and also a regular at the Grand Tournments in the area. I have mostly balanced armies, and from what i've read i'm not overly affected. My skaven have lots of options, and lots of rats, my demon's I was already bulking out the core because it felt dirty not to, and the idea of playing my dwarves without getting run off the table has me excited!

Why other's are not excited:
A lot of casual gamers are turned off to re-learn a rules set. The game does dramatically change magic. So those armies out there like VC, Demon's, and other magic heavy armies they are not happy about being able to cast spells on 1 dice for fear of stopping their caster from using other spells. So they are unable to run their current strategy and have to re-think things.

The number of models required has people bummed. I've mentioned this before: the company wants to make money, of course they were going to up the models required! But there is a bright side, players who have armies only need to add a little, this is stem the tide of starting new armies.

Lastly, ALOT of GT players liked it the way it was. There was a tier system of armies, people played cheesey armies, and there was a lot of skill required in deployment, gaming, and a lot of people played point denial. They are not happy about having this go away with the adding of True Line of Sight, deployment scenarios, and magic backlash. The interesting part this is what has me excited. I'm sick of playing pitched battle! I like random stuff, armies don't walk up and say, we'll stand here, you stand here i'll meet you over there on turn 3.

Its a war game, things are gonna die. Bad stuff's gonna happen. People need to learn to laugh and smile and have a good time again. Embrace the new edition, maybe it will even be fun!

Hi all.
So the only reason people will spend £50+ on a new WHFB rule book and re-buy thier existing Army Books along with more minatures , is because GW messed up the game ballance so badly with thier last round of Army Books?

Because GW appear to be unable to string more than 4 army book releases together without unbalancing the game play.
You are going to trust them again, and SPEND EVEN MORE MONEY AT GW because they messed up?


Am I the only one that see a slight flaw in the logic of this?

TTFN
Lanrak

Lanrak wrote:Hi all.
So the only reason people will spend £50+ on a new WHFB rule book and re-buy thier existing Army Books along with more minatures , is because GW messed up the game ballance so badly with thier last round of Army Books?

Because GW appear to be unable to string more than 4 army book releases together without unbalancing the game play.
You are going to trust them again, and SPEND EVEN MORE MONEY AT GW because they messed up?


Am I the only one that see a slight flaw in the logic of this?

TTFN
Lanrak

That Seems logical.

$75 for a core set of rules is dumb. An extra $25 is no where near the minor cost of the additional print costs - even more so if they moved the printing to China. If too many sheep buy it at $75 watch as other companies follow suit when they realize what they can do.

I won't be getting it but then again the amount of money I have spent of GW this year is less than $100 for specific things I needed. I will wait and pick the mini rule book up in Sept from someone who buys 3 or 4 box sets.

Next edition will be a CORE GAMING RULES (tm) for $80 to be followed by a 30 or 40 page supplement ($35) of badly written rules to allow you to give your game a 40k flavor or a WFB flavor - need a copy of CORE GAMING RULES (tm) to use supplements.

I still play 5th ed...

Lanrak wrote:Hi all.

Am I the only one that see a slight flaw in the logic of this?

TTFN
Lanrak

You've been hating on GW for years. Nothing new here. You're drawn to anti-GW threads because you love to complain.

I've got 6 guys in the shop now, all having fun playing 8th edition. It's a great improvement over 7th, and people can't wait for the book.

Back to your regularly scheduled griping.)

If you enjoy the way the new rules (work), why not buy it?

FacelessMage wrote:If you enjoy the way the new rules, why not buy it?

Because @ $75 it doesn't represent good value to me - and that's me as an accountant with a fair degree of disposable income armed with a GW card with $120 on it and two Verizon $50 refund cards.

I like 8th cause it seems more destructive.. and faster to play. Something is wrong when I can play 6 games of 40k at 2500 pts and finish them all.. yet every fantasy game seems to go till turn 4 due to how slow it can play. Yeah 75$ is a lot, but the book has about 200 pages of cool fluff to read and great pictures. People spend more on a forgeworld book which has almost no practical use for most people
Plus, blowing more stuff up is fun! Life is cheap

Hi mikhaila.
I dont hate GW plc. I just think GW plc is run very poorly.And passing the cost of thier inefficiencies on to the customer is not justified.

If you enjoy WHFB enough to spend twice as much as necisarry, to suport GW corperate managments current policies of combating a declining market with constant price raises, , fair enough.

I personaly dont think GW offer value for money compared to other companies products.
And by the looks of the finacial reports more people are arriving at simialr conclusions.

I am not saying no one should buy WHFB 8th ed.

Just that people who think WHFB 8th ed doesnt offer good value for money , probably will not 'bother' to buy it.

Happy gaming.
Lanrak.

Lanrak wrote:Just that people who think WHFB 8th ed doesnt offer good value for money , probably will not 'bother' to buy it.

I don't think anyone can honestly compare this rulebook to the last and come to the conclusion that the price is unreasonable. The old rulebook was what, almost $60? It's been awhile, so I'm not sure. The new rulebook is $75, larger, full color, etc.

I think it's fair for people to say they would have rather had a less quality book for less money. Or a smaller book with no pretty pictures for less money. But for what the book is, the price is very fair (or at least as fair as GW pricing ever is!) imho.

Lanrak wrote:Hi all.
Well lets have a look a what else people could do if they want a 'latest rule set' for a 25mm fantasy battle game.

Armies of Arcana 5th ed , rule book £20.
WHFB rule book £55(?)

Armies of Arcana has 23 army lists FREE .These lists have been extensilvey play tested and have provable levels of balance, and are available NOW!

GW will charge you £18(?) for each of thier 13(?) army books that will be updated over the next 5 or 6 years.( So that costs players OVER £250 for ALL the rules and army lists.)And its doubtful GW will maintain game balance throughout this period.(They never have before. )

Armies of Arcana can use ANY 15mm / 25mm/28mm minatures .So YOUR army can be built to YOUR preferences and budget.(Picking from the offerings of any of the 30+ minature manufactures that suits your needs the best.)

GW insist WHFB players can ONLY use Citadel Minatures in GW stores.So you pay 2 to 7 times as much for the Citadel Minatures for your game.
But you get the privaledge of being able to 'play' (intoduction games) in a (overcrowded) GW B&M store.(And having to leave, when the 1 man running the store wants to visit the toilet. )

So for the 'priveledge' of 'playing' in a GW store, and the 'convenience' of a one stop shop.You pay a VERY large premium .
You may feel this extra £200 or more for your 'GW hobby' is worth it .
Others getting JUST as much fun with the wider TTMG hobby may not.

Some gamers may not bother with the WHFB 8th ed,as they feel GW no longer offer good value for money.

You pay your money and make your chioce.

Happy gaming.
Lanrak.

GW models? Better.

GW fluff? 100x better.

GW rules? Better.

fullheadofhair wrote:

FacelessMage wrote:If you enjoy the way the new rules, why not buy it?

Because @ $75 it doesn't represent good value to me - and that's me as an accountant with a fair degree of disposable income armed with a GW card with $120 on it and two Verizon $50 refund cards.

Oh, three shiny cards with money on them. $75 for the new full colored, fluff packed, picture blasted, new comprehensive rule-set. That, and it works as a weapon.

Lanrak wrote:Hi all.
So the only reason people will spend £50+ on a new WHFB rule book and re-buy thier existing Army Books along with more minatures , is because GW messed up the game ballance so badly with thier last round of Army Books?

Because GW appear to be unable to string more than 4 army book releases together without unbalancing the game play.
You are going to trust them again, and SPEND EVEN MORE MONEY AT GW because they messed up?

Am I the only one that see a slight flaw in the logic of this?

TTFN
Lanrak

Wow. Not at all.

They're updating the fething rules for completely other reasons.

Game balancing? Sure, why not.

To sell? Don't even think about saying you wouldn't do the same thing.

To update? Rules need updating, whether it is to *balance* or just to bring a refreshing breath of life into the game.

To get more people interested! If someone is stuck between two different systems, and one just came out with brand new fancy rules, which one would you prefer?