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bretonnians have always been one of my favorite fantasy armies in look and feel.

I am currently building an Empire Army, but I have been really tempted by the noble mostly Calvary army that the Bretonnians can field.

I am told they suck now, but do they?

They... sorta do. You're probably going to reliably need two units hitting at once (with at least one getting the +2 Rank Bonus) in order to Break on a Charge.

New WHFB Rules state that if by the end of the combat (when Ranks are counted), the losing side has more ranks than the winning side, they count as Stubborn. Meaning you could cause, say, eight wounds, have a rank, a standard, and charged (11 CR), and have only a standard, one wound, and a two ranks back against you (4 CR), but the enemy unit is still testing at -0 instead of -7 because they have more Ranks.

It's painful to armies that have trouble getting Rank bonus', and even more painful to cavalry armies as you lose one of your main strengths for your typical Bretonnian Unit (+2 S first round) in later rounds.

You - also - are going in Initiative Order now. Meaning your I3 Core, if charging a unit I4 (Skaven) or I5 (Elves), is very likely going second (even charges go I-Order). This also means Great Weapons always Strike Last, barring the Always Strikes First rule (in which case you go initiative order) or the enemy using GW's too.

On the plus side, you are getting slightly more (+1 model's) attacks this edition. Great Weapons are always +2S now, even on Cavalry, so the Questing Knights are a static S6 unit now.

Overall, you'll probably be relying on more Damsels to give units magical buffs so that they may break units on the charge. THey aren't "suck" now IMO, but they are much harder to run successfully.

I think where the bretonians lose out with knights, they gain with peasants.

I think they are going to become the cheapest, and most reliable troops in the game, (Stoic with a ld of 8 for 5 points per? Yes pls!) Couple that with a BSB Re-roll and we're going to see a big unit of Reliquae, and then 3 units of peasants on either side, 3 stone throwers, and then the rest in knights in the most competitive of armies.

40 models is only 200 points, that's a 5x8 unit of doooooom!


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Also, peasants don't give away extra points for their banners. Which used to be huge, but now it's still meaningful.

Well, the damsel's magic got better and your ranks are far cheaper than other elite troops so those are pluses.

However stubborn when the enemy has more ranks and a longer average infantry charge range will hurt you. On top of that Pegasus knights now have a facing.

Lances will need to be longer, around 12 models, on average. This will allow you to actually break units. Peasants will be needed to pin the enemy down in places and bowmen to thin down the enemy as you can only have so many lances of that size.

I think they are as much if not more capable than they were at the end of 7th, though not the top of the pile by any margin.

And just a note...the rules say that only ranks of 5 or more models count for the steadfast thing...It all depends on the wording of the Bretonian lance rule whether it works or not...

Two things to keep in mind:
1) Seemingly Pegasus' Knights are Vanguard now.
2) Men-at-Arms can't use their shields in combat any more.

Minsc wrote:
2) Men-at-Arms can't use their shields in combat any more.

Why not Minsc? Are spears now 2h weapons? Are you now not always considered to have a shield and some sort of handweapon? Be it a club, broken bottle, or animals' thigh bone? I understand you can't with halberds....


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skyth wrote:And just a note...the rules say that only ranks of 5 or more models count for the steadfast thing...It all depends on the wording of the Bretonian lance rule whether it works or not...

I would honestly, rather that they didn't. If I rubberlance, I'd rather run and hopefully out-run my opponent so I can get another charge. Instead of charging and stubborn sticking.

I meant in regard to Halberds, which is what they come with by default. If you meant spears I apologize.

That is an important point to remember for 8E Brets. Men-At-Arms come with shield and halberd... but under 8E can't use Hand weapons, so they can't use their sheilds in melee. This means that they will have an AS of 6+ and go down like tenpins.

Spears are slightly better; at least with spears they can get a 5+ AS.

I really really really hope that the errata PDF will allow us to buy M@A as HW+S. I think that is by far and away the best M@A equippage there is. Even if it costs the same 5 points as halberd or spear-armed troops, the 4+ AS plus the parry ward save would make them... well, not great, but much better than the other options. Heck, I'd consider paying 6 points per for HW+S M@A.

The nerfing of fear and terror also means that the charges for bretonnians 9the most importants factor in playing them) are going to get off.

And why wouldn't you be combo charging?
All the good players have been doing it for several editions.

With the step up rule and combat going in I order, the lance formation is now nowhere near as useful. No matter what happens, you're always going to be struck back at. It becomes even less of an advantage if you're going second. Right off the bat you are likely to lose some attacks due to casualties.

I very much hope the lance formation gets an errata making it more useful somehow. Maybe a +1 bonus to I or something of the sort.

It's really, REALLY hard to kill a Bretonian knight with 1a models. It's still pretty tough to kill more than one knight with 2a models.

Ragnar4 wrote:It's really, REALLY hard to kill a Bretonian knight with 1a models. It's still pretty tough to kill more than one knight with 2a models.

Yup, and if the unit doesnt break on the charge turn its nearly impossible for that unit of knights to finish off the unit it charged, especially once the countercharges come in to play.

Agreed Shivan.

I just think that dual charges are going to be pretty much the order of the day in hopes of wrecking whatever they are charging.

I honestly can't imagine the erratta screwing Brett knights so their opponents are "always" stubborn.

I also honestly think that the "super huge units" mentality is only going to last a while. units will get bigger, but the days of 50 troll slayers, or 100 slaves will not last long. at all.

I plan to run my slaves 36 strong in a 6x6 formation. Knights will have to kill 18 in the standard 3x3 formation for me not to be stubborn. Thats assuming my strike backs dont kill any knights. Thats pretty long odds. (actually i think thats impossibly for one unit of knights to do.

Personally i love the rule. I always thought so they charged me and killed a bunch big deal, its still 20 something against 9, why am i running?

The days of spamming knight units are over with the Bret's. I've already seen a seasoned Bret player take only 3 units of knights but each one had 1-2 characters. Those knight units brought the pain.

One benefit I think he really pulled was he wasn't afraid to pull a charge first or second turn and go one-on-one with a beefy, enemy combat unit. He would roll well, make his charges, live to fight back (2+ AS, 5/6+ ward didn't suck), just lay some hurt down. His units were getting a lot of attacks at S5/6 so he would carry the fight.

Not to mention he was sporting two trebuchets and 3 units of 20 longbowmen pouring hate down range.

I'm fighting his newer list tomorrow with lvl 4's, 2x lvl 2's wiz's, and a big unit of 40 pilgrims. Like I said, he's fearless when it comes to taking risks in games and he usually comes out on top. Gonna be a good fight.

He's proven that while Bret's are still on old school army books, they are most definitely NOT to be underestimated.

3x3 knights units would need to kill 18 rats, you're right.

4x3 knights would only need to kill 12 (assuming that you haven't knocked a model off.) --Last edition I ONLY ran 4x3 unless it was grail.

Hit your slaves on 3's, would with 2, for 11 attacks, then hit your slaves on 3's wound on 4's for 10 attacks
then those goofy impact hits for knights... I'd say the odds are relatively good that I'm running those slaves off.

Also: 6 lances = 3 charged units and an average of 20 wounds per combat.

The saving grace here is that the likelyhood of those dual charges connecting goes down because of the random charge distances, but not by much... at all. The average charge distance went UP this last edition.

You'll go all Dwight on me and say: "well I'll just flee from the charges"

Then I'll go all Dwight on you and say "Well I'll re-direct with 2 units at least, and possibly a 3rd, and if you flee from those, that's 5 or 6 units fleeing from one charge phase, and skaven don't like to rally"

You'll put on your Dwight mask again and say: "well I'm going to magic you to death first so I don't have to flee, also I have 30 jezzails! Also, I have a super secret assasin monster that will kill your general and rape your magic casters, you clearly have no chance.. ha HA!"

Then I'll say: Well played Shivan. Well played, I guess we don't even have to play the game.

I think knights are still going to be really strong, just not the instant infantry breakers they were before.

The thing that scares me about knights is them against my SEU's and my big units. A 4x3 unit of knights can and usually does kill my doomwheel (and sometimes the HPA) on the charge.

If they charge a unit of my rat ogres with will probably take down a few of them with little fear of losing combat.

If the hit a big block infantry i will most likely be steadfast and tarpit them.

I gotta say I hate big lances, just because they're just not agile at all. Never liked the "line up my big unit, charge, win or lose in 2 turns" school of play. Everything else at least looks OK, but the stubborn thing bites. It would be OK with "outnumber 2:1 = stubborn" or something, but Bret cav gained nothing and took a big kick in the teeth as far as I can see. I believe the comment "err... well, they can move through buildings now" summed it up. I think they broke the game with bad codexes that nerfed common troops relative to crazy stuff, and now are trying to fix it with rules - taking a pretty elegant system of combat res and mucking it up. No doubt the fix will be for Knights of the Realm to go down to 15 pts each so you can field them in 5x5 groups.

It would be OK if flank charge took away the stubborn thing by taking away ranks (blocks can hold as long as they are supported), but its my understanding that it doesn't.

However, I've reached my whining limit given the minimal amount of fantasy I play, and I'm sure its still fine for friendly games. : )

Perhaps the knight units can try and take out the smaller, non stubborn units first, then (with the new mvt rules) spin around and blast the remaining big units with cobo charges.
Revers of what happens now.

Waaagh_Gonads wrote:Perhaps the knight units can try and take out the smaller, non stubborn units first, then (with the new mvt rules) spin around and blast the remaining big units with cobo charges.
Revers of what happens now.

Yeah the free reform is a pretty big boost to them and their incredibly massive flanks.

Waaagh_Gonads wrote:Perhaps the knight units can try and take out the smaller, non stubborn units first, then (with the new mvt rules) spin around and blast the remaining big units with cobo charges.
Revers of what happens now.

Adding to what Shiv said, the newer movement rules and all the reforms you'll get will make Knight units a lot more devastating. Slap a unit or two on your flanks and take a turn to get them in position, ready to explode on any unit caught unawares.

At the same time, they are going to have issues if they get charged. No str bonus for knights, striking at I3, and finally, no ranks. Bret knights, unlike skaven, CAN be broken when charged.

In terms of peasants, my buddy took a unit of 50 men at arms with halberds. 10x5. Holly &*%$ this was annoying to take out. What you need to do is have 1 or 2 of these units, 2 Trebuchets, and then fill in with knights. You now have your units to take the charge (MaA), Reason to not sit and wait for you (Trebs), and your countercharges (KNights).

Problem is strange things like ambush, tomb scorpion, more ranged armies like DE or WE.

Overall, i would Empire>Bret. But anything you like can be used effectively, so take what you want.


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Edit: Units 10 wide fight in add. rank. So 3 Ranks S4. Stubborn. Put a pally in there and whamo.

If your knights got charged in 7th edition they were also screwed, but what brett general lets someone get the first charge off. Barring wierd situations.

One thing of note with the bretts is that you could easily fit level 4 prophetess with assorted gear (silver mirror, stubborn-thingy) and a fully kitted brett lord if playing in the 2400-2500 range which may very well become the "new 2250". With the new brb lores, prophetess/damsels can do some good stuff. Depending on the situation, breakthrough-charges may also not be necessary. For example questing knights seem great at grinding down opposing units (with good armor and blessing), especially if you can reform 4x3 to 2x6 formation after a round of combat.

By the way: Technically, there's a use for the "Double generated dice but cannot cast" item now: You can potentially channel double dice from that one Prophetess. Of course, I don't think anyone would shell out the points to once / game give an extra PD.

Personally, unless it can't be done, I'd suggest "only" two Hero and a Lord Mage at that point level. You can usually fit it without going over the 25% ea. limit, and it's what's often fielded anyways. Offers the same total spell levels, but more Hero (at the cost of Lord) alotment to boot.

I can see people going with a lvl1 damsel with that item which allows you to generate extra PD, a lvl4 prophetess and two hero's in the 2500 point range. The extra dice could really turn the tide, especially if you roll really low to generate your PD. It may not always be worth the points you paid to get it from game to game, but from a few 8th ed. batreps i've read with a little luck (and some extra dice), the risk is almost always worth the reward.

Do Brettonians have access to the lore of Light? Because the whole "double your movement and gain ASL" spell looks tasty to knights.

If I remember correctly a Damsel has access to Life and Beasts and a Prophetess has those two plus Light and Heavens.

**edit**

Just looked at the army book. A Prophetess only gets Heavens, Life and Beasts. The Fey Enchantress however, gains access to light. She get's to choose from any of the eight lore's in the brb.

I think the Lore of Light will be the big deal for Brettonians if they can have it.

There are very few spells on that list that doesn't benefit knights in some way. A spell that puts a unit at WS and Initiative 10? A spell that gives Knights an additional attack on the charge and ASF? 9 Grail Knights under that spell will hit things with 23 ASF attacks with a massive charge range, and because they are initiative 5, they will get re-rolls against most things.

What I am looking at as far as a competitive Brettonian Army is multiple units of Bowmen, and 2 Trubuchets whittling down units with their shooting to manageble levels, and Damsels using Lores like Light and Life to buff the rather expensive Knights and combo charging units of opportunity. Breaking through a flank, and then reforming horizontally to do it all over again.

But I am new to this game, it's just a thought.