Bretonnia in 8th Edition...

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**Minsc**

Remember Mahu: If it's +1 Attack on the model's profile, it's not really helpful for additional ranks. If it's strike an additional time more than normal in close combat it's much more helpful.

**Kirasu**

Its not just +1 attack.. its also ASF and double movement. Throw a bunch of dice and you can have it apply to everything within 12"

**Minsc**

Kirasu wrote:Its not just +1 attack.. its also ASF and double movement. Throw a bunch of dice and you can have it apply to everything within 12"

Also, I'd like to apologize now: I forgot that - with how Bretonnian Ranks work ATM - it would be full attacks: 3x3 is 22 attacks (9 first rank, 7 second, 6 third on). Being WS5 S6 on the charge... ouch indeed.

Averages:
WS4 or lower, T4 or lower: 16 wounds on the charge, saves -3.
WS5 or better, T4 or lower: 13-15 wounds, saves -3.

Nasty.

**Kirasu**

If theyre fighting against low int armies like Orks, dwarves, lizards, undead they reroll hits too

**bd1085**

Elves are mean. My DE's have been bringing the pain in a handful of games. I'm always taking my large unit of spearmen now and the other night I brought a 28 strong Black Guard with Armor Piercing Banner. Stood up against a Saurus w/ spears and Stegadon charge.

Downside is they're still toughness elf. There are plenty of tricks out there for any army to knock down those pesky high initiative pretty boys.

I'll have my skaven done by the end of the week and I'm stoked to start playing.

**Killjoy00**

Aren't black guard maxed at 20?

**Karon**

Ragnar4 wrote:3x3 knights units would need to kill 18 rats, you're right.

4x3 knights would only need to kill 12 (assuming that you haven't knocked a model off.) --Last edition I ONLY ran 4x3 unless it was grail.

Hit your slaves on 3's, would with 2, for 11 attacks, then hit your slaves on 3's wound on 4's for 10 attacks
then those goofy impact hits for knights... I'd say the odds are relatively good that I'm running those slaves off.

Also: 6 lances = 3 charged units and an average of 20 wounds per combat.

The saving grace here is that the likelyhood of those dual charges connecting goes down because of the random charge distances, but not by much... at all. The average charge distance went UP this last edition.

You'll go all Dwight on me and say: "well I'll just flee from the charges"

Then I'll go all Dwight on you and say "Well I'll re-direct with 2 units at least, and possibly a 3rd, and if you flee from those, that's 5 or 6 units fleeing from one charge phase, and skaven don't like to rally"

You'll put on your Dwight mask again and say: "well I'm going to magic you to death first so I don't have to flee, also I have 30 jezzails! Also, I have a super secret assasin monster that will kill your general and rape your magic casters, you clearly have no chance.. ha HA!"

Then I'll say: Well played Shivan. Well played, I guess we don't even have to play the game.

**UNREALPwnage**

What about the Fey Enchantress, she kicks ass. She auto-cast one of the lore of heavens spells each turn and can take grail knights as bodyguads. With her you also dont need to pray at the begining. She is the ideal leader, then take a palidin or two in each unit. Make sure you have the banner of the lady, it removes enemy steadfast because it makes it so they have no ranks, the you run that unit at that 100 man night goblin hoard and destroy them when they fail their leadership 2.

**HoverBoy**

So you suggest throwing that expensive unit to a anatics nest.
Also the banner of the lady removes rank bonus, steadfast dosen't come from rank bonus it comes from having more actual ranks than the enemy, rank bonus is that CR bonus you would normally get for (again) having more ranks.

**iheartlargeblasttemplates**

There are so many rule problems with brets. its crazy

**EmilCrane**

Trebuchets...
Trebuchets everywhere....

**UNREALPwnage**

It says "all enemy units in contact with the bearer of the Banner of the Lady get no combat bonus for ranks" Ranks provide steadfast in combat only, thus ranks are directly related to being steadfast. If they are counted as having 0 ranks you outomaticall out rank them unless you have less than 3 models left. I asked the guys at 2 GW stores by my house and they both had the same opinion. IT DOES TAKE AWAY STEADFAST, and for a 100 point banner in an all calvery army it makes sense, atleast you will have one kick ass unit breaking one of theirs a turn, i would recommend running you unit as

1. Grail Knights*12 , full command
2. BSB, Barded Warhorse, Banner of the Lady
3. Paladin, Barded Warhorse, Birth-sword of Carcassonne
4. Paladin, Virtue of the joust, Heartwood lance, barded warhorse.

**kenshin620**

I recall (back in 7th so sue me) an empire tactic that relied on massive (+30) blocks of state troops (usually swordsmen but that is impossible with brets

) that have a few units of 5/6 near naked knights riding next to them and acting as a support role.

Does that work well with brets? Also how useful would a BSB on foot with standard of discipline be in a men at arms unit?

**Kirasu**

UNREALPwnage wrote:What about the Fey Enchantress, she kicks ass. She auto-cast one of the lore of heavens spells each turn and can take grail knights as bodyguads. With her you also dont need to pray at the begining. She is the ideal leader, then take a palidin or two in each unit. Make sure you have the banner of the lady, it removes enemy steadfast because it makes it so they have no ranks, the you run that unit at that 100 man night goblin hoard and destroy them when they fail their leadership 2.

Shes also like 200 pts more than a normal wizard

**kenshin620**

Kirasu wrote:
UNREALPwnage wrote:What about the Fey Enchantress, she kicks ass. She auto-cast one of the lore of heavens spells each turn and can take grail knights as bodyguads. With her you also dont need to pray at the begining. She is the ideal leader, then take a palidin or two in each unit. Make sure you have the banner of the lady, it removes enemy steadfast because it makes it so they have no ranks, the you run that unit at that 100 man night goblin hoard and destroy them when they fail their leadership 2.

Shes also like 200 pts more than a normal wizard

Such is the curse of an old book

Am I one of the few that enjoy the new books with the amount of Special Characters? Sure either in reality they have horrible fluff or horrible models or horrible rules but at least its better than "Hmm Tomb Kings? oh well theres only 2 really important guys..."

**Killjoy00**

Sorry unreal, read the rules again. Rank bonus does not mean the same thing as ranks. This is the same reason a unit of 5 men at arms are steadfast against a hydra. They have no combat rank bonus. But they are steadfast. Sadly that banner does nothing against steadfast.

**HoverBoy**

UNREALPwnage wrote:It says "all enemy units in contact with the bearer of the Banner of the Lady get no combat bonus for ranks" Ranks provide steadfast in combat only, thus ranks are directly related to being steadfast. If they are counted as having 0 ranks you outomaticall out rank them unless you have less than 3 models left. I asked the guys at 2 GW stores by my house and they both had the same opinion. IT DOES TAKE AWAY STEADFAST, and for a 100 point banner in an all calvery army it makes sense, atleast you will have one kick ass unit breaking one of theirs a turn, i would recommend running you unit as

1. Grail Knights*12 , full command
2. BSB, Barded Warhorse, Banner of the Lady
3. Paladin, Barded Warhorse, Birth-sword of Carcassonne
4. Paladin, Virtue of the joust, Heartwood lance, barded warhorse.

A brettonian lance allways has 0 ranks too, because you need a rank of at least 5 models for it to be complete, nothing in the lance rule changes that so when arranged in ranks of 3 lances are actually 0 ranks. Oh and steadfast isn't a combat bonus from ranks, a combat bonus from ranks is defined on page 52 under the "Extra Ranks" rule, steadfast OTOH is a rule related to brake tests as shown by the fact its on page 54 who is entirely devoted to these tests.

Edit: GW storeboyz told you so, really?
Thats like me working at a sports store and claiming that makes me qualified to judge a sports event

**kenshin620**

Yea its best to take their info with a grain of salt

sure they do often read the rules but they can get hiccups. One guy on dakka mentioned how a gw employee said that sternguard marines could only use 1 ammo type

**UNREALPwnage**

Look in the FAQ's, bretonnians get a rank bonus for 3 instead of 5 because of the lance. Steadfast comes from having more rankes than your opponent, so if you have not ranks, because of the effect of the Banner of the Lady, you get no steadfast, it isn't difficult to understand.

**skyth**

Number of ranks of five or more models and rank bonus are two seperate concepts. It isn't difficult to understand.

**kenshin620**

Would Morks Spirit Totem get negated by the Bret Banner?

**HoverBoy**

Sorry to brake it to ya UNREAL but GW reeeeealy screwed up the bret FAQ, and even tho i believe lances should be able to get steadfast with ranks of 3, unless it has the same wording as say monstrous infantry all the brets will get is the CR related rank bonus. As for the banner it dosen't remove steadfast because it isn't a "combat bonus from ranks" its a "rank related bonus for brake tests".

**UNREALPwnage**

Lets say a bretonnian unit of 15 Knights 3 Wide and 5 deep charges 40 empire state troops who are 10 wide and 4 deep. The bretonnians out rank them by 1 rank, empire would have 4, bretonnians would have 5 ranks, thus the empire doesnt get steadfast: It is the same concept with the Banner of the Lady, instead the 10*4 empire unit would be counted as haveing 0 ranks even though it is 4 deep, Thus no steadfast.

**skyth**

Again, steadfast has absolutely NOTHING to do with rank bonus.

A unit can be flanked, lose it's rank bonus, and still be steadfast due to having more ranks. Same applies to the Banner of the Lady.

**HoverBoy**

UNREALPwnage wrote:Lets say a bretonnian unit of 15 Knights 3 Wide and 5 deep charges 40 empire state troops who are 10 wide and 4 deep. The bretonnians out rank them by 1 rank, empire would have 4, bretonnians would have 5 ranks, thus the empire doesnt get steadfast: It is the same concept with the Banner of the Lady, instead the 10*4 empire unit would be counted as haveing 0 ranks even though it is 4 deep, Thus no steadfast.

Nope, only rankls of 5 count for steadfast, your ranks of 3 are 0 ranks, you'r lance special rule however does give you a rank bonus (and only rank bonus as per you'r army book) of 4 for the lance being 5 deep, so the rank bonus in this situation would be 4:3 for the brets.
If they had the banner this situation would end in a rank bonus of 0 for the state troops, thus the rank bonus would be 4:0 for the brets.
In both cases however the empire's troops are steadfast, due to the simple thing that ranks and rank bonus are not, i repeat not, the same thing.

**thelordoflife**

Actually i have the book infront of me and the banner of the last says "All enemy unit with atleast one model in base contact with the bearer of the banner of the ladt get no combat bonus for ranks"

And if im correctly using the wording, During combat being steadfast relies on having more ranks, since steadfast is purley a combat ability i would say that its having a combat bonus for ranks, thus not being steadfast against units with the banner.

Though disscussions like this i am sure will continue its all down to how its worded. and this is my opinion and the opinion of a few freinds. We play under this rules in our games. untill its FAQ'D we wont know 100% but hey lets hope brets

**HoverBoy**

thelordoflife wrote:Actually i have the book infront of me and the banner of the last says "All enemy unit with atleast one model in base contact with the bearer of the banner of the ladt get no combat bonus for ranks"

And if im correctly using the wording, During combat being steadfast relies on having more ranks, since steadfast is purley a combat ability i would say that its having a combat bonus for ranks, thus not being steadfast against units with the banner.

Though disscussions like this i am sure will continue its all down to how its worded. and this is my opinion and the opinion of a few freinds. We play under this rules in our games. untill its FAQ'D we wont know 100% but hey lets hope brets

As was already pointed out steadfast isn't a bonusr related to combat (see BRB pages 52 and 53, which is where combat result are explained), its a rule related to brake tests (BRB 54 a page entirely and solely devoted to these tests), the separation between the two is what makes it impossible for steadfast to be treated as a combat bonus.

**thelordoflife**

I can completley see where your coming from, to be honest the bret book is really in need of updates and itt wouldnt suprise me if you were right tbh mate but untill it gets FAQ'D i think were all just gunna have to take it with a pinch of salt for the moment and decide between you and your oponent

**HoverBoy**

As much as i would like all books to be strong, the banner just dosen't do what you want it to, it's rather clear, as i've explained above.

**kenshin620**

Another question. Do skaven lose their leadership against the banner?