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So I posted the below in the modeling section and realized that in reality me building this army is completely and totally based on the tournament communities thoughts on it since they encounter WYSIWYG more often. So Like I said below I want an "Angelic Host" that would be a renegade chapter of space marines that have had a radical mutation in their gene-seed and are being hunted to extinction.

Upon further thoughts please also take into account a custom army list that has a picture of said unit next to it so you can determine what's what by simply looking at the list. As for actual weapons those are easily WYSIWYG because Eldar and Marine weapons have very similar profiles. The only weird weapon would be the Laser Lances that are cutdown Bright Lances. Even Witchblades and Singing Spears would be obvious Runic weaponry painted to match to make it easy.

So by my previous posts you guys know i'm a huge fan of Count-as. Here is a link to my "Daemon Army":
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/294553.page

So I was thinking that while I like the idea of a jetbike army the actual models leave a lot to be desired. After consider how many I need and how much converting I'd have to do to get what I'd like out of it I came up with an idea that I wanted to run by the community. Now this will be a tournament army so take that into consideration to. Would you have a problem if you faced off against it at a tournament if it was explained to you before the match started?

So my Idea was to do a winged angelic host that would count as a Jetbike list. The new sanguinary guard box set is my main inspiration for me. So here are my thoughts on each model type, how I would build it, and how it would represent that unit in the marine codex. All models would be mounted on 40mm for standardnization purposes (This is what I'd base my bikes on so I could do a detailed base for them if I did normal Jetbikes). Preferrably I'll also be building all of them flying off the base (even if it's only a tiny bit).

Paint Scheme would most likely be Nightlords/Renegade style paint scheme and all the models would naturally be mutated (Giant wings )

So on to the models:

Farseer:

So the base would be a pair of Sanguinary Guard Legs and backplate. The front plate would be a Black Templar robed front with the icons cleaned off. One arm would be the rune axe from the Space Wolf Terminator sprue. His other arm would be a SG bolter arm to represent the TL-SC's. He'd naturally have the wings from the SG kit. His head would be bare but with a custom built psychic hood to represent runes of warding. I'm torn between using the jump backpack or the standard. I think the standard backpack would tie in the mutation thing.

Warlocks:

Same as the above but with fully helmeted heads. Cut down Khorne beserker helmets. Probably the skull helmets to show their more elite status. I'd likely use GK's Nemesis Halberds for my Singing spears and I'd use rune swords of some type for the Witchblades. SG Bolter arms again to represent the SC's which have almost the exact same profile and range. Possibly use SG torsos.

Autarch:

SG legs. Not sure about the head but it will be bare to make characters easier to see since Counts-as armies need to be as easy to determine as possible. Probably a head with bionic eyes to represent the mandi-blasters. I'll use a SG arm but converter it to get using a cut-down Brightlance to represent the laser lance. Other arm will again be a SG bolter arm.

Guardian Jetbike:

Assault Marine Legs and Chest. Dual Wielding Pistols or Bolters to represent the TL-SC's? If I make some Shurken Cannons then I can probably do a heavy bolter/assault cannon.

Shining Spears:

Similar to Autarch. Star Lances will need to be larger than standard Laser Lance. Also will use cut down Khorne Beserker heads that look like knight helms when cut down. SG Bolter Arms. Probably full on SG Torso's as well to represent elite status.

That's it. So:

Would you mind playing against this in a tournament?
Would it adequitely represent a Jetbike army? (If anything they'll be taller than standard Jetbikes)
Would you think this was a neat army to play against?

Thanks guys for reading thru this if you did with no pictures. If I get a couple of responses I'll build a test model.

Armies like this in a tournement need constant explanation.
In a local tournement, where I see this army played all the time and I have become just as used to it as you are, i would not mind but if I came from out of town and saw this i would throw a big old WTF flag and tell you to play a different army.

Constant explanation means that the game would get only a couple turns in because I have to sit there and memorize what everything is, overruling what knowledge I already barely know about any other armies cuz I've played guard for 9 years

Actually to be honest if you play guard it wouldn't take long at all since you'd probably just blow it off the table

But in seriousness you'd have a copy of my army list and if I brought something like this to an out of town gig I'd probably do a custom army list with the models pictures next to the entry to limit confusion. After that it's just using eldar rules. And there are only 3 different types of units in play. Warlocks/Seers on bikes, Guardian Jetbikes, and Shining Spears so it should be that much work. Nothing like my daemons.....

The custom army list, I imagine, would make it easier. The only thing I'd ask for the whole wound allocation units is that you keep a list with check boxes to say what is left (if this applies to the seer councel)

Otherwise, on that note, i guess i would not mind

A Checklist would be easy enough to add. So you know which of the Council is dead. That's a great idea actually. I might have to do this for my Adeptus Mechanicus Daemons.

To me, WYSIWYG is NOT the same as counts-as, not by a long shot. Counts as is a creative outlet by and large, and WYSIWIG is a matter of legality. As long as your counts as models are also WYSIWIG (in its own way), then we're kosher.

I'm also a fan of custom, "counts as" armies. I love orks and their models and have toyed with making IG, Space Marine, and half a dozen other armies out of their models. I'm fine with a counts-as army in any circumstance IF (and this is the MOTHER OF ALL FRIKKIN' HUGE IFS) it is TOTALLY, 100% consistent in its WYSIWIG conversions and the important stuff (special weapons, heavy weapons, upgrades, etc.) are modeled and OBVIOUS to the naked eye. I think it goes without saying that "modeling to advantage" needs to be fully mitigated with conversions being roughly the same size and same bases as their "authentic" counterparts.

There can be no room for shenanigans in a normal army; a "counts as" army, IMO, has even less room. It needs to be obvious, explained before the game (and models pointed out for what's what) and explained again at any time if the opponent asks. You are asking a lot of them, so the least you can do is be gracious and present full disclosure however much they ask.

If you're cool with that, I am 100% aces with your counts as army. That sort of thing should be what the hobby side of the game is all about and I fully support it. A buddy of mine, Catpeeler, has a fantastic, full-conversion daemon army and I have zero problem with it because everything's obvious and consistent as to what's what. The fact that it's unique and gorgeous is just icing on the cake.

Thanks Skarboy. That's pretty much the way I view it too. Beastmen Mutant Guard armies. Grot Rebellions, Deciever greater daemons. Ork Mawrines! Human Tau, Kroot Tau! Drone Armies (Seen it). I'm a huge fan of counts-as as long as it's consistant and WYSIWYG. As well as the same size/height/base as the standard model.

I wouldn't have a single problem telling people exactly what everything is as many times as they needed it. I agree that the weight of making everything understood is completely on the player bringing the crazy/converted/counts-as army.

15+ Year old models just don't appeal to me. And an Angelic Host just sounds like a great idea in my head.

I voted Hell No! While I love your counts as army I am more concerned about other unscrupulous individuals that would use this as a pure gaming advantage. Its okay for pickup games but that is it as far as I am concerned.

G

Hey BBF,

I'm glad you said how you voted. I appreciate the openness. As for gaming advantage could you explain to me how that would happen? It's likely the models will be taller and easier to see than Jetbikes. They'll be on the same stands. And will be modelled WYSIWYG. How could you get a pure gaming advantage from this? I'm not being confrontational. I genuinely want to know so I can either a)find a way to mitigate it (like I did with the pictured armylist and checklist) or b) say it wouldn't work and not make the army.

Also as a funny side note your worried about a pure Eldar Jetbike army w/3 5 man units of Shining Spears

You need another option: Non tourney-sounds great but in a tourney this is too confusing.

I'm normally a proponent for counts as, but this would appear version confusing in a tournament. in friendly games yes, but not a tourney situation where time is a factor.

I voted "meh" - I love the idea, would love to see (and play against) the army, but in a tournament, time is of the essence usually.

The army list would help tremendously with it, if you do it with pictures and whatnot.

I voted "Meh..."

In a friendly setting I'd love to play against an army like this. Hell, I'd even love to just see it on the table. I personnaly wouldn't mind seeing it in a tourney but some issues arise. In many tourneys time is already an issue. Even with an army list and checklist provided your opponent will need to take a little extra time each turn looking over what is out on the tabletop since it will be a new experience for them. This could really wind up hurting either you or your opponent if you run out of time and one of you was about to turn the corner if only there was another turn played.

Frazzled wrote:You need another option: Non tourney-sounds great but in a tourney this is too confusing.

I'm normally a proponent for counts as, but this would appear version confusing in a tournament. in friendly games yes, but not a tourney situation where time is a factor.

I agree with Frazz. I voted Hell No as well, but I would have rather voted that it's just too confusing. Basically, a jetbike counts as should be some sort of thing riding another thing cavalry or bike style, or be suitably large enough to have the same footprint. Unfortunately, just using Sanguinary Guard models would appear too much like well, Sanguinary Guard or Jump Pack marines rather than jetbikes.

Now, Eldar in really cool battlesuits blasting about the table would be hell cool, I've just never found a suitable miniature/conversion fodder to do it effectively.

I voted no. As cool as the idea is, the jump pack/jet bike rules aren't really the same, marines and eldar don't have the same stats, they don't have the same base sizes, they have weapons that are not the correct statlines, and marines already have an army list.
It would be like taking marines and calling them orks. It just doesn't fit.
I really like counts-as armies, such as kroot tau, mechanicus counts as ___, squats, etc. But this just doesn't work for me. The fact that it's a more or less power-gaming list (bike seer council) that you have made makes it even less appealing to me. I would not want to play against it in a tournament. Maybe if we were friends, and I had a lot of time to get used to it.

@Whitedragon

It would have the same base footprint. It would also have the same heigth footprint and would probably be wider than standard eldar jetbikes. There would be no jump pack, just wings. It's designed to be an angelic host. But I understand the concerns. I to would love eldar mech suits but I've never seen anything that would work that's smooth.

@Ph34r

Jet Packs though have very similar rules and wings could count as any of those. Marines and Eldar on Bikes have nearly the same stats. Base sizes can be fixed. Bolters and Shurikens have the exact same st/ap.

i've seen people count orks as guard and marines. Would this be cool with you if they were equipped correctly?

It's not really powergaming. If you think an all jetbike army including shining spears and an autarch is powergaming then you fully entitled to your opinion but I can tell you it's not really scary to anyone.

I too am hung up on the jump pack=jet bike part. Typically I like my count's as to resemble the object. I would want to see them on something. I'm actually in "undecided", which isn't an option.

I understand part of where you are coming from, since a marine has a toughness 4, which is the same as the bike's toughness, and they have the same armor save. I think if you approach it that way it might be better for explanation purposes.

The only concern is that someone will look at them, forget that they are jetbikes, and get screwed when you turbo boost. I think that's the biggest rules contradiction, maybe just by having them on the larger bases will make it clear enough, just not completely sold on it.

Hulksmash wrote:@Whitedragon

It would have the same base footprint. It would also have the same heigth footprint and would probably be wider than standard eldar jetbikes. There would be no jump pack, just wings. It's designed to be an angelic host. But I understand the concerns. I to would love eldar mech suits but I've never seen anything that would work that's smooth.

I just think that Space Marine based Angels are too much Space Marine (or maybe demons) and not enough riding jetbikes/mounts/whatever. It would be very confusing I think.

Hulksmash wrote:Jet Packs though have very similar rules and wings could count as any of those. Marines and Eldar on Bikes have nearly the same stats. Base sizes can be fixed. Bolters and Shurikens have the exact same st/ap.

i've seen people count orks as guard and marines. Would this be cool with you if they were equipped correctly?

It's not really powergaming. If you think an all jetbike army including shining spears and an autarch is powergaming then you fully entitled to your opinion but I can tell you it's not really scary to anyone.

Similar stats except for weapon skill, ballistic skill, initiative, sergeant leadership, and strength. Some of the eldar leader units are closer to matching marines.

It isn't necessarily power gaming as a whole, but you do know how OP seer councils can be, I am certain.

Your army fails the "this already has rules" test. Orks as guard? They are given converted vehicles and weapons, to the point that they are definitely IG (orky valkyries, chimeras, hellhounds, etc). Orks as marines? Don't remember the details of examples I have seen but I would imagine much conversion work would go into making them unmistakably not normal orks.

Basically, if you are doing a counts-as army, your army should no longer function as the models' army. Your army could just as easily be Blood Angels as Eldar (well, easier as Blood Angels).

Is it really THAT hard to remember this stuff? Typical game, you go to your table, introduce yourself to an opponent, exchange army lists, and explain any conversions/special rules you may have. The explanation here might take, at most, a couple minutes as he points to a unit and goes Seer Council, Shining Spears, etc. I know what all that stuff does, I know their options, I know how to approach them. I have the army list in my hand as back-up and if I forget which is which, if a couple units resemble each other, I frikkin' ASK. It's not a power move, it's a creative idea that presents a solution (custom army) to a problem (likes army, not models). Really, I'm shocked at how little support there is on something that, to me, means precious little to the game at hand. I am much more pissed when someone has the normal models for an army but does the "chainsword is a power sword, red plasma gun is a melta gun, guy with the blue helmet is the sergeant, etc., etc., etc." At least with a "counts as" army, especially the way Hulksmash appears to be doing it, you know damn well everything is going to be modeled. Sorry, but I really don't get the opposition to this beyond a "this might slow us down a little," which I grant is a valid concern.

Sorry...

*Bikes are bikes, jetpacks are jetpacks, Trakks are trakks, Walkers are Walkers, cavalry Are cavalry. Using one as another because 'deh botf go fahst!' isn't justification or WYSIWYG.

*All weapons in most armies are 'similar'. But using a weapon with 'clear stats' as another weapon with 'clear stats' just because you are using a different codex is confusing. You are almost always better with generic non-GW weapons than trying to shoehorn the wrong weapons into other weapons stats. I am not going to tell someone a shoota is supposed to be a lasgun because they are similar because they can 'both shoot things'

*Forcing people to remember things is 'burdensome' to an opponent. I don't make you remember anything. I don't provide you with a written army companion to understand my army. You get the freedom to play the game unencumbered and make reactionary split second decisions based upon visual cues you are used to seeing like 'marine = 3+' and 'jumppack=12move and fly over crap'. I now have to constantly check what I am doing against a whole 'counts as' list of unclear things because I 'SEEEEE' marines but somehow they are eldar because I am told so.

This is like that army at adpeticon with the treasure chest. Sure it looked cool, but it under all of the supposed 'just trying to make a cool army' was a power metal dual lash 9 oblits army.

This theme could easily be pulled off with as marine codex, it is not like they don't have dozens of configurations available to represent an all jetpack/wings army. I see no valid reason this list needs to be eldar except for powergaming. If it was pure theme/modeling, then do it with the marine codexes that the models and weapons represent and accept the limits of a 'fluffy' list. This is not a Grot rebellion or a genestealer cult where most of the models have no valid rules and they are using the closest list possible for the models. You have rules for your models and you would be purposely using a very very different set of rules for no reason but in-game advantage. You could easily run a BA army with the same theme and models and not have any burden on your opponents.

Well done 'counts as' armies are good. Bad counts as with unclear 'counts as' and non WYSIWYG components are a pain to play against especially at tourneys that are supposedly 'competitive' and serious business.

Edit: your 'counts as' demon army is bad too. They look nothing like demons or even remotely represent them. It is burdensome to opponents and looks like 'I want to model one codex but play another'

You basically say as much.

It's also because I do want the army to have a chance at winning and the ][ codexes aren't really that competitive

Your models have rules, but you want a more powergamey codex and want to 'win more' so you are sacrificing WYSIWYG and your opponents gaming experience to win games. You could have very easily made your models very similar to how you wished to model them and used a more fitting codex. Sure you may not be playing one of the power metalists or top tier codexes but you can't always have your cake and eat it to. Your models are cool, but the use of off the wall codexes when there are very clear and easy codexes you could be using is a problem for me.

Your right Ph34r. I'm totally going to be able to use 9 guys with wings and runic blades. Not to mention 16 winged marines with lances. And then another 20+ winged marines that are dual wielding bolters. Yep, models could totally still be used as BA's. That's leaving out that they'd be mounted on the proper flying bases that Jetbikes come on because that's required by WYSIWYG. I'm going to be doing just as much work to distiguish these models as your examples.

I can completely understand the time issue some people would have problems with. The idea that once a model has rules you can't use as something else even if it's converted solely for that purpose is just silly.

@Skarboy

Summed up my thoughts exactly.


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@Nkelsh

Grots have rules. It's the ork codex.

If it's to burdensome to remember that every model on the table is a jetbike then I truly feel sorry for you.

You seem to be really pissed about this idea and I'm curious as to why? It seems like you have a real hate on for counts-as armies. If you've seen the Grot Rebellion army you might have problems remember what's what because all of the vehicles are heavily converted. Is he asking any more than I am? All of my models would even be in the same category. Would it be different if I made them a silver-surfer army and put them all on surfboards?

I particularly like how you assume it's going to be poorly done and hard to understand. Don't state things as fact that are opinion. Thanks for your response


Automatically Appended Next Post:
My counts as army is bad? Is there an Adeptus Mechanicus List? It's pretty easy to remember actually.

Daemon armys have always been encouraged to be different. If I want to win I'll play my undefeated wolves. I want a neat pretty army. And I'm sorry but the ][ codexes don't represent the crazy mech stuff at all. Daemon's codex does it just fine.

I don't appreciate being called a powergamer when I'm using subpar lists but want a cool thematic element. Take your hate elsewhere friend

I voted Hell No, but don't feel quite that strongly about it. To me an army that is this heavily "counts-as" should be for friendly games. I love counts-as armies but I feel that anything that is that far off the standard models should be for games with buds, not strangers at tournies that might throw a fit...

An excellent concept for an army though Hulk, it would be a shame to not do it just because of tournament play issues.

The only time I really get to play is in Tournies Bladewalker. Reason being is that's my spare time I'm allowed to devote to my hobby out of the house. So any army I make is gonna be played at a tournament. So If I get a resounding f-you for it I probably just won't build it. It wouldn't be worth it to me. Especially since it's not something you can sell afterwards ya know

I voted that it would be cool. Myself personally, I'd have no issues with playing the army.

OTOH, there are certain unwritten rules to "counts as" that you're breaking. A big one is that you don't mix MEQ models with non-MEQ rules. Another is that unit types stay constant. You're army looks like jump marines, but plays as bike eldar. It's very counter-intuitive, especially since all jump pack/angelic marines are a pretty strong theme of the blood angels.

So, while I've got no problems, I think a lot of people that are newer to the hobby, tired, simply not as quick on the uptake, or just cranky are going to veto this, with reason.

Well said Polonius. I would only add that the MEQ w/Non-MEQ isn't quite right. Eldar Bikes major stats (T/W/I/A/Ld/Sv) all match. So 3 out of 9 don't match up perfectly as far as statlines go.

Otherwise like I said. Well said!

Hulksmash wrote:Your right Ph34r. I'm totally going to be able to use 9 guys with wings and runic blades. Not to mention 16 winged marines with lances. And then another 20+ winged marines that are dual wielding bolters. Yep, models could totally still be used as BA's. That's leaving out that they'd be mounted on the proper flying bases that Jetbikes come on because that's required by WYSIWYG. I'm going to be doing just as much work to distiguish these models as your examples.

I can completely understand the time issue some people would have problems with. The idea that once a model has rules you can't use as something else even if it's converted solely for that purpose is just silly.

Wow, that's some heavy sarcasm for something that you are still wrong about. You're just being defensive instead of looking at this from an objective point of view.
You can use 9 guys with wings and huge blades.
The 16 marines with lances are a bit up to interpretation, but still usable.
The 20 marines with dual BPs are assault marines.

The fact of the matter is, if someone looks at your army, they will think "Interesting Blood Angel army"
If I look at an ork army with IG vehicles and heavy weapon teams I think "Ork IG army"

If you can somehow make me think "Jetbike eldar" when I look at your army, I'll eat my words. But that really, won't happen.

Hulksmash wrote:My counts as army is bad? Is there an Adeptus Mechanicus List? It's pretty easy to remember actually.

And to get some things straight, I REALLY like admech armies. They're my favorite type of army.
But I don't like your Admech army. Why are the skitarii all teleported into battle? Why do the daemonettes have pistols? Why are some skitarii str:3 t:3 and other str:4 t:4 when they are basically the same models? Your theme armies are very creative but way too inconsistent for me to find believable.
The paint jobs are good, the conversions are creative and well done, but I don't like what each unit is supposed to represent. I don't think it works.

I think I've actually been very objective about this. I fully realize that some people won't like it. I just think you are making unwarranted assumptions of how the army will be built and presented. Your entitled to your opinion absolutely just don't tell me I'm wrong about how I'm going to use my models. You do see the issue there right?

You did miss the fact that they were bolters and not bolt pistols but that's ok. I understand that you don't approve and thank you for your opinion (no sarcasm).

Oh and in regards to my Admech that army has been finished. Daemonettes/Bloodletters don't have pistols anymore. Combat Drugs can make someone tougher, hence the difference in T in standard models. And my Bloodletters obviously have power weapons so they are easy to determine. Same with hwo obvious the weapons for the horrors are. Why wouldn't an Admech force be teleported into battle? Why would all admech have forcefields? The units are consistant across the army. I'll try and get some updated photos for that post since it's actually quite out of date. That being said everyone who's seen the finished Daemon Army has really liked it. Though it is hard at first to remember what is what and I'll be adding a help sheet for that army to for opponents.

I read the first post describing how they would be wielding BPs or bolters and figured that you would go with BPs, considering they would match the stats of catapults and bolters would not. Maybe you will use bolters and have stats be less believable but have me be wrong. I can't say what you will choose exactly.

I may change my mind when I see the actual army, but you know my opinion now, so there's that for you.

And I appreciate it. I'm genuinely curious as to what people think about this idea. I had a lot of fun building my Daemons. I love showing up with an army no one else has. Especially for my "soft" armies which most of these are. But I'm not gonna waste my time and money making a list that everyone is gonna tell me to put where the sun don't shine in a tourney so I asked the community first

I would be glad to face this army, the amount of time and creativity that would go into it is well worth a couple minutes of explaining. And it shouldn't take more than a couple minutes, unless the other individual is a bit slow which you can't be faulted for. Even tournaments, in fact this is where you would go to show this kinda thing off.