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So this thread is kind of in response to another thread here in the tactics forum. I was just wondering what some veterans advice for space marines vs orks would be. Ork players, feel free to chime in and say what it is you don't like to see fielded by marines.

As far as my army goes, my current list looks like

1850pts
HQ Termie Chaplain (with assault termies in LRR)

Troops
x10Tac Squad; plasma gun; missile launcher; sargewith pf; razorback with tl lascannon
x10Tac Squad; plasma gun; missile launcher
x10Scout squad; telion; camocloaks; all snipers

Elite
x6 assault terminators 3lc/3th ss; LRR extra armor
Dreadnaught Multimelta DCCW; Drop pod
Dreadnaugh TL missile launcher; TL lascannon

Heavy
Predator; lascannon sponsons; tl lascannon turret
Predator; autocannon; heavy bolter sponsons

I try to play an all comers list, and I don't really wanna try to twist my list against one army. I just wanna know some good tactics. The ork player I play against normally plays a trukk list, with Ghazzy and a KFF Mek, and burna boyz, no nob shenanigans or anything like that.

Another question I have. I really wanna convert some of my tac marines into some sternguard, but I really am not sure how to go about this. Any suggestions on the unit conversion and combi conversions would be really appreciated!!

Quick side note: Do you have 6 Termies and the Chappy in a Redeemer? That does not quite fit.

Sorry, its the crusadar, the one with the sixteen model capacity.


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Sorry, its the crusadar, the one with the sixteen model capacity.

Whirlwinds and thunderfire cannons are the best things that marines can field against Orks. Sternguard are surprisingly solid too with their ability to wound on a 2+ at range and 2 attacks each base with better initiative than charging Ork boyz.

Regardless of lists SM versus Orks is always one of the most fun games you can ever experience. It's win/win.

G

well, you need to get your target priority right to beat orks.

#1 - kill battlewagons full of nobs
#2 - kill trucks full of nobs
#3 - kill battlewagons full of boyz
#4 - kill trucks full of boyz
#5 - kill killa kans / deff dreds

once those high priority targets are dead, you can deal with the rest of the army, and the things inside them.

to kill boyz: fire something into them to knock them down to about 20 boyz. tap once with bolt pistols, charge with a tac squad, win combat. if possible, attach chappy to them before the charge. terminators can beat nobs without the chaplain's help, but the marines really need the assist.

to kill nobs with warboss: assault into hand to hand with terminators, AND a dreadnought. dread can insta-gib warbosses before he can swing.

its important to keep your cool when fighting the ork horde, deny them the charge at all costs, and hit them in hand to hand before they can hit you. Dismount them from their vehicles to achieve this end. Forgo shooting if you have to, in order to ensure you get the assault (i.e., if there's only ONE ork within 6", don't fire bolt pistols, so you can be sure you get the charge).

as for your list, you could use rhinos for both tac squads instead of a razor, so you can have mobility for all your guys. Your dreadnought should drop the missile launcher for a DCCW. Also, remember, if you need to hold up a squad of orks for a while, a dreadnought is more than up to the task. nobs get 3 attacks, hit on 4's, pen on 5's... the dread will often last 3-4 assault phases before going down, more than enough for you to re-group to re-engage the mob.

the goal should be to section the horde into manageable chunks, kill those chunks, and then move on to the next, while minimizing your own losses.

also, as for the chaplain, consider using cassius instead of a terminator. He's harder to kill (3+ w/ FNP = 2+ armor statistically) plus toughness 6, and he comes with a combi-flamer. He can't be insta-killed by anything the orks can throw at him.

Consider dropping the scouts as well. They are useless. a 5 man tac squad in a razorback would be far more useful.

You don't really need (or want) a pod on your multimelta dread either. You can't afford to suicide a unit into the enemy in the hopes that it will kill a battlewagon or something, because it has a greater than 50% chance of failure, and is a large waste of points. Consider swapping the multimelta for a twin linked autocannon. TLAC + DCCW is a favorite dreadnought build of mine, especially against orks. Cracks side armor on battlewagons, and brings down trucks from extreme range.

Whoever said whirlwinds and thunderfires... I would avoid them. any decent ork player will spread out, and make killing your cannon a very high priority. With either snikrot or buzzsaw deffkoptas, they will normally kill it very quickly, and it won't be worth its points cost. It lacks mobility, and you desperately need that against orks.

to kill nobz: charge with terminators.

very comprehensive tactics. Thank you for the input. I was considering changing the scouts to CC scouts and getting a Land Speeder Storm for them, with melta bombs or a powerfist.

Does he have tooled up nobs with PK and Big choppas?

if he does they are your priority, because my nobs can absolutely chew through squads of tactical marines, and can quite easily hurt a landraider.

He has ran them before, so, yes, I know how powerful they are. Lately he hasn't been using them. But, they are always a priority when I seem them in a list!!

As an ork player, I'm most worried by anything with a template. Flamers, artillery, missiles generally make me nervous.

My opponent fields CC termies with a combination of thunder hammers/shields and LCs. By taking power klaw wounds on the storm shields, and striking first with the LCs, he generally comes out of most fights on top. I try to take out their wheels and then ignore them, to limit their ability to pay for themselves.

LRs are also powerful. There is little in an ork army that can exceed S8 at range, so we have to get close to destroy it.

I hate sternguard, but they appear to be hard to use. The ability to tailor ammo to the target is very useful. They just don't CC so well for their points cost.

Orks have to hit hard, fast and together. If you can disrupt this, you can take out his army piecemeal.

Thanks for the input. I just recently attained my cc termies. I am thinking of using some devs with all ML's that would put out the templates!! I wanna get me some Sternguard!

TFC's and Vindis do NASTY NASTY things to Orks.

The biggest thing against fast orc lists is to kill enough of his vehicles in the first salvo or two so that he has to come at you piece meal. I prefer to kill the trucks first since they are generally out of custom forcefield range and significantly easier to break armor on. This deprives the nob battlewagon of its supporting units and then once it closes I try to drop the contents with ST 8+ weapons. Truck mobs are easy to mop up with HB attack bikes and Thunderfire cannons once they are exposed and footslogging towards you because of their low LD and small size (max 12).

Where are your Flamers? Those things are ork killers fo sho!

stu192 wrote:Where are your Flamers? Those things are ork killers fo sho!

The problem with flamers is that it relies on you being inside 8" which is generally bad for space marines. The bulk of your orc killing power should come from the 24 to 36 inch range band where orcs really don't have a reliable counter. HB attack bikes, whirlwinds, and thunderfire cannons all fit this description while still retaining utility against other armies. One or two flamers in a counter assault unit (i.e. combat squad with flamer + Sarge, small assault squads) is good for cleaning up weakened units but engaging orcs from range to disrupt their assault lines is critical.

stu192 wrote:Where are your Flamers? Those things are ork killers fo sho!

Flamers are awesome if your goal is to getting stomped on and your face beat in.

The main thing to do when your play SM vs. Ork is to concentrate fire but at the same time spread your line out so you don't get caught in multi-assaults.

There are few more things underrated than the almighty bolt pistol in the tactical marine's wargear. What's its use?

Countering those pesky ork assaults. Orks striking space marines at strength 3, and nobs striking later, makes all the difference in the world. This is when the flamer is useful. Also, when space marines charge, they get +10 attacks, which means that they can kill more orks quicker. Mind you, I'm not telling you to get them into a 21+ mob, but 20 or lower will be lowered down enough to let you wipe them out in close combat.


Never underestimate the power of the boltgun, either. I've had 8 boltguns and one flamer instantly ventilate an entire mob of 11 orks. Nob and all.

I really don't wanna get into getting Whirlwinds or TFC's. I could throw a combiflamer in there and a flamer, and rhino up a squad. I am probably gonna replace the scouts with some Sternguard vets. Possibly give them some combi flamers...

Nantukoshade wrote:I really don't wanna get into getting Whirlwinds or TFC's. I could throw a combiflamer in there and a flamer, and rhino up a squad. I am probably gonna replace the scouts with some Sternguard vets. Possibly give them some combi flamers...

Why not? A Thunderfire is a mainstay in my lists against all opponents. Firing four small blasts a turn makes it one of the best heavy support options in the Marine arsenal and the ability to wound MEQs on a 2+ forces alot of saves and quite a few deaths. Its even better against AV11 heavy mech armies where exploding or wrecking a vehicle forces them to clump up for maximum damage potential.

thunderfires are too easy to kill. Its 100 points of uselessness when its instantly killed by a lascannon shot or two.

The TFC is vastly underrated. Hodersstodnt, you are correct by saying they can be easy to kill, but they are not useless. Most opponents don't know what the cannon is capable of. Not to mention you deploy it on the top of of a ruin and bolster it for a 3+ cover save. Against orks, they usually can't shoot it because they don't have the range. And if someone wants to waste their lascannons on it rather than shoot my rhinos, vindis, or land raiders, then be my guest.

Honersstodnt wrote:thunderfires are too easy to kill. Its 100 points of uselessness when its instantly killed by a lascannon shot or two.

A completely misleading analysis. Is it relatively fragile being AV10? Of course. Can its survivability be improved routinely with a 3+ cover save? Yes. Does its 60" range allow it to be deployed advantageously where it is outside the threat range of most of an opponents long range firepower? Yes. Does it benefit from target saturation where there are other threats opponents have to concentrate on? Absolutely. In a void, it looks easy to kill. On the field where it benefits from the nuances of the tactical situation it is vastly more survivable than people think.

I'd also note that if the TFC dies, you still have a free techmarine out of the deal, and they're far from useless.

I run horde Orks so terminators have never been a big problem for me. Ork boyz are actually one of the most effective terminator killing units out there, even against TH/SS termies because they don't care about the good invuln save. You've gotta keep in mind that a single terminator is worth about 7 boyz, and those 7 boyz can have 28 attack on the charge.

The reason thunderfires and whirlwinds are good against Orks is that they can hit a bunch of Orks and most importantly, can ignore cover saves. 31 wounds worth of Orks with 4+ cover is really really hard to shoot to death without ignoring cover. 31 wounds worth of Orks with FNP, 5+ invuln, and 4+ cover even more so...muahaha.

My regular opponent fields a whirlwind, it has ever been the bane of my existence.

It fires indirectly, it fires an ammo that ignores cover saves (so no KFF for me!) I have to keep my lads tucked up in battlewagons to keep them from harm, it will leave massive gaping holes in a kanwall/mob infantry army.

Templates and tanks. That's what messes with orks, oh and keep a few things hanging back to come onto the lines and bolster you, like landspeeders with flamer/multimelta or an assault squad (both of which my opponent uses very well to plug gaps and tip the balance against things that breach his gunlines.


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oh yeah and screw termies, point sink. Boyz and burnaz will cremate them.

Don't rush headfirst into the boyz. Let them come to you and shootem up! Flame and pistol the smaller mobs and assault to clean it up!

Spread out but stay within support range.

PanzerLeader wrote:

Honersstodnt wrote:thunderfires are too easy to kill. Its 100 points of uselessness when its instantly killed by a lascannon shot or two.

A completely misleading analysis. Is it relatively fragile being AV10? Of course. Can its survivability be improved routinely with a 3+ cover save? Yes. Does its 60" range allow it to be deployed advantageously where it is outside the threat range of most of an opponents long range firepower? Yes. Does it benefit from target saturation where there are other threats opponents have to concentrate on? Absolutely. In a void, it looks easy to kill. On the field where it benefits from the nuances of the tactical situation it is vastly more survivable than people think.

Most ork players take buzzsaw deffkoptas.... which will undoubtedly kill your 100 point TFC. many ork players also take snikrot, which will do the same. Lootas are even more common, and will have the same result. say, 15 lootas fire at a TFC in 3+ cover... that means 5 hits minimum. Even with your 3+ cover save or 2+ armor save, statistically, one of those will most likely end your expensive TFC.

it will die, no matter what kind of tricks you use to keep it alive. And often, it will die without making back its points. I prefer things like the 85 point dakka pred variant because it will survive the whole game if you place it right, and thus kill more over the whole length of the game. Also, vehicles with their 12" move at the end of the game to contest often win games for me, which is great.

You can't ignore the dawn of war argument, either. Having a unit thats useless in 1/3 of your games is NOT a good strategy IMO.

Honersstodnt wrote:

PanzerLeader wrote:

Honersstodnt wrote:thunderfires are too easy to kill. Its 100 points of uselessness when its instantly killed by a lascannon shot or two.

A completely misleading analysis. Is it relatively fragile being AV10? Of course. Can its survivability be improved routinely with a 3+ cover save? Yes. Does its 60" range allow it to be deployed advantageously where it is outside the threat range of most of an opponents long range firepower? Yes. Does it benefit from target saturation where there are other threats opponents have to concentrate on? Absolutely. In a void, it looks easy to kill. On the field where it benefits from the nuances of the tactical situation it is vastly more survivable than people think.

Most ork players take buzzsaw deffkoptas.... which will undoubtedly kill your 100 point TFC. many ork players also take snikrot, which will do the same. Lootas are even more common, and will have the same result. say, 15 lootas fire at a TFC in 3+ cover... that means 5 hits minimum. Even with your 3+ cover save or 2+ armor save, statistically, one of those will most likely end your expensive TFC.

it will die, no matter what kind of tricks you use to keep it alive. And often, it will die without making back its points. I prefer things like the 85 point dakka pred variant because it will survive the whole game if you place it right, and thus kill more over the whole length of the game. Also, vehicles with their 12" move at the end of the game to contest often win games for me, which is great.

You can't ignore the dawn of war argument, either. Having a unit thats useless in 1/3 of your games is NOT a good strategy IMO.

I'd again argue that snikrott, koptas and most certainly lootas (unless you're employing a small squad) would be better served finding other targets. If you bring snikrott onto a battlefield with a squad of kommandos and the first thing you take on is the thunderfire, then you've got squigs fer brains.

Koptas is fer killing armour, so unless you don't have a jucier target about like a pred or a razorback with something in it, then and only then would I bother with the TFC.

But then I still think it's a crappy gun. I've had it used on me with little to no effect in a couple of games.

Honersstodnt wrote:

PanzerLeader wrote:

Honersstodnt wrote:thunderfires are too easy to kill. Its 100 points of uselessness when its instantly killed by a lascannon shot or two.

A completely misleading analysis. Is it relatively fragile being AV10? Of course. Can its survivability be improved routinely with a 3+ cover save? Yes. Does its 60" range allow it to be deployed advantageously where it is outside the threat range of most of an opponents long range firepower? Yes. Does it benefit from target saturation where there are other threats opponents have to concentrate on? Absolutely. In a void, it looks easy to kill. On the field where it benefits from the nuances of the tactical situation it is vastly more survivable than people think.

Most ork players take buzzsaw deffkoptas.... which will undoubtedly kill your 100 point TFC. many ork players also take snikrot, which will do the same. Lootas are even more common, and will have the same result. say, 15 lootas fire at a TFC in 3+ cover... that means 5 hits minimum. Even with your 3+ cover save or 2+ armor save, statistically, one of those will most likely end your expensive TFC.

it will die, no matter what kind of tricks you use to keep it alive. And often, it will die without making back its points. I prefer things like the 85 point dakka pred variant because it will survive the whole game if you place it right, and thus kill more over the whole length of the game. Also, vehicles with their 12" move at the end of the game to contest often win games for me, which is great.

You can't ignore the dawn of war argument, either. Having a unit thats useless in 1/3 of your games is NOT a good strategy IMO.

Again, misleading arguments. Buzzsaw deffkoptas and Snikrot will kill a dakka Predator just as easily as they will kill a TFC. A dakka Predator also suffers from the same initial deployment problems in Dawn of War. While the Predator has a 12" move to reposition on turn one, the Thunderfire has an extra 12" of range to compensate. The Lootas can kill a TFC more easily than they can kill a dakka Predator to the front, but the TFC can outrange the Lootas by 12" and fire on them while they are unable to return fire. You also argue that correctly deploying the dakka Predator keeps it alive, but refer to proper deployment of a TFC as a "trick." I also fail how to see how five turns of shooting from a TFC in Dawn of War deployment makes it "useless."

Essentially, you are basing your arguments completely on ideal situations for the Predator but horrible situations for the TFC and trying to justify them with mathhammer. You are completely neglecting to address the art of tactics. The biggest thing the TFC brings to the table is long range, cover ignorning firepower that, in this case, happens to also have enough AP to punch through a basic orc boys armor. In most cases, orc boys will receive a 4+ save from the Predators firepower. If the Predator is moving to negate the cover, it is also seriously degrading its firepower for the turn (dropping it from a maximum of 10 shots (with PM storm bolter) to a maximum of 3). Even a single, well timed volley from a TFC can completely decimate an orc mob and disrupt the ensuing assault phase. That is the advantage of a small blast template that ignores orc cover and armor saves when combined with other, armor defeating threats to kill battlewagons and trucks and force orcs to clump up. At an average of ~4 orc kills per turn (assuming PB storm bolter, no cover saves and no tactical need to move) a dakka Predator takes a whole game kill an orc mob. A TFC can under the right circumstances do this in one turn. At a tournament yesterday, my TFC in a Dawn of War deployment successfully killed two full strength truck boy mobs after my Predator killed the trucks, preventing the orcs from flanking me and subsequently did some damage to a complex nob squad that allowed the rest of my army to pick it off. This was after the orc player went all reserves and denied me two full turns of shooting. The TFC alone geneterated two kill points and helped bag a third.

I have looked at the TFCs in my codex a lot. I just don't think that they are worth it. I understand that they have heavy4 blast and all that, but they are made of glass it seems(and they are cannons....haha...glass cannons...anyway) The whirlwind I could get behind though. I am just working on my Sternguard rightnow, and wanna focus on them. I will probably look into a whirlwind when I can, though. Also, are whirlwinds good against other things? I don't wanna be the slayer of greenskins and nothing else, I wanna kill em all!!!

Whirlwinds are good against all Eldar infantry with a 4+ save or less as well as all IG infantry. They also do exceptionally well against Tyranids and DE. They are ok against MEQs (not alot of kills since its basically a heavy bolter template but the pin test with a -1 to LD can be disruptive at times). Against TEQs, there are better weapons. For 85 points though, a Whirlwind has a genuine spot in an all comers list if you are not using a TFC or multiple Dakka Preds to fill the role.