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So TFC are supposed to be good against orks and horde armies, but aren't high on those armies priority list? Really? So this thing that plops down 4 blasts a turn, which dies if anything hits it (yippee for crappy artillery rules) is going to be ignored by units that specialize in taking out back line fire bases? I know orks are stupid, but the guy playing them probably isn't.

That being said, both whirlwinds and TFC are a bit too squishy in my book. Add in the fact they aren't very good against the majority of armies in the 5th ed world (mechanized), I don't recommend taking them. A dakka pred is going to get the job done most of the time, even against orks they put out a respectable amount of fire for their points.

If you want templates, there is always the cheap Heavy flamer MM land speeder squadrons.

As for the OPs list, I think you spent too many points on units that just don't have the fire power to justify it. Plasma on tacticals isn't the greatest now, and is pretty expensive. All tacticals should be mounted safely in rhinos or razorbacks.

EA on a landraider? Extra armor downgrades 1/6 results of the damage chart. Considering its AV of 14, I just don't see you getting the benefit often, at least untill you get to melta range (and by then your cargo is in range...)

I think a better choice for HQ would be a libby, his utility really helps a bunch, and he can do decent enough in CC to put in with the termies. I wouldn't even give him termie armor, you can just assign the ID/ap1-2 wounds to the TH/SH, the majority of the other to the LC, and he can get by taking as little as possible. In CC you can't really protect him, but against I3 or worse armies, he should be relatively safe (LC and libby should kill quite a few models, reducing the amount sent at him)

I don't think a full 10 scouts is the greatest. I would go with a smaller unit, or none at all. Tellion makes them a compelling choice, but I personally don't really get much out of them.

So here is a list with some more firepower, and minimal adjustments needed.

Vanilla librarian ~ 100

10 tac, ML, Flamer, rhino ~ 205
10 tac, ML, Flamer, rhino ~ 205
10 tac, ML, Flamer, rhino ~ 205

6 assault terminators, LRC w/MM, ~ 500
MM dred with pod ~ 140
TLC ML dred ~ 145

MM/HF land speeder ~ 70
MM/HF land speeder ~ 70

auto cannon HB pred ~ 85
Auto cannon LC sponson Pred ~ 120

Not the greatest, but adds in some more firepower while trimming some of the fat out. Some people will say flamers are going to cause you to get assaulted, but only if you use them offensively. You use them on the units that get past your firepower, to give you more breathing room. They are a weapon of last resort, and a very good one at that. The land speeders are just speed bumps, but have a dangerous load-out to make it so your opponent must deal with them. Use them to block movement and kill vanguard units.

Shade, if you want to kill them all, then Whirlwinds are not the answer. A TFC is better for all around then a whirlwhind. If you are looking for ordinance to kill all then look no further than the vindicator.

Vehicles are the bane of an ork existance. i normally play against space wolves and eldar. The wolves bring a land raider whilst the eldar brings waveserpents and fire prisms.

AV14 is hard for orks to kill unless a PK Nob or Warboss assualts it. Or a tankbusta squad assualts it, which tankbusta bombs have 2d6+6 armor penetration and a tankhammer with a s10 hit.

All in all vehicles will bring down any ork army, thats why IG is such a pain now since they can bring numerous amounts of armor.

Anything fast is a pain for orks. Bring on the Blood Angels tanks!

Now, the vindicator seems nice. He can kill more than hordes. Seems good. I know the plasma may not be the best against Orks, but like I said, I am trying to play a balanced army. That is why I have plasma in the list. I really appreciate the advice though guys, keep it comin!!

My two cent, speaking as an ork: That Land Raider Crusader is going to be a huge pain in my arsenal. Seriously, nothing is more painful for an ork player than a land raider full of assault terminators. He can't get close enough to kill them without getting within 24" which makes for brief orky lives indeed. He'll avoid it like the plague. Use that to your advantage.

Also, you can never go wrong with the vindicator, IMHO.

The Redeemer works well against bikers or anything if you can get into the flamer range. Plasma is nice for trying to wound some Nobz and is great against many other armies. Dakka preds can be good, but my vote is still a TFC.

Land Speeders work nice against the orks. Fast gun platforms. Same with Attack Bikes.

Bikes or speeders could be nice. I do seriously lack fast attack choices in my list...now I just have to get them

ok here is what i do: i run 3 dreads w/ MM and the heavy flamer: i do this because not are dreads one of my favorite units/model, there also awesome, i feel that a lot of people use there MM and type cast them as anit-tank roles. this is where i say "but it's st8 and ap1, that would crush some heavy infantry", that in combination with the heavy flamer CCW is death for orc nobs, i was playing a game where my opponent had 10 nobs with a warboss w/ PK and thankfully i got the first turn and BAM BAM BAM three dead nobs first turn and i was still 18 inches away. next turn i was closer to kill 2 more and heavy flamer all of them and killed all 'cept the warboss. i know your opponent woun't be dumb enough to have them walk there nobs like mine was but if you crack that armor they have no where to go and can't gain any momentum, so have the dreads just bat for clean up.

4 10 man tac squads with the ML and the flamer, Sergent with a PF: in a world where 2/3 of your games is you select mission with the BRB you will be objective based, i combat squad everything. 8 5 man squads, i make a CC squad (Sergent w/ PF, flamer and 3 marines) and a shotty squad (ML and 4 marines), this leaves each squad to operate in do there roles in peace independently. i know that this is nothing new and millions are already doing this but it works very well when the CC squads are in a rhino and the ML get to fire at armor and nobs all day long as well as blast templateing.

finally, you need some CC support, denying the charge is essential vs. orcs; actually in any army but expecially in orcs and space marines you need to start getting the momentum if you want to win and if you deny the orc momentum they cannon accomplish anything. in all the games i've seen or witnesses the losing army usually never even leaves there side of the board. i use a chaplain with 10 assault marines but you could also use some CC bikes. you need a unit that can move fast and strike at hot spots in record time. the 5 man squads are great but against 20+ orcs there is no chance of survival. the assault marines change that. my favorite tactic is to park the rhino right in front of the boyz tide and unload the 5 man squad, have them shoot and next turn they try to flamer and charge, they will die (which i don't like using sacrifice units) but my opponent will now have to move around the rhino or PK it and move over it. either way he's getting slowed down by the 35 point piece of transport, and that's when the assault marines get the charge, all they needed was some time to get there and deny the charge. i personally like these tactics and they have worked very well for me in the past. i also like to play mid range as opposed to gunline or assaulty. i feel it allows me to adapt more quickly if something goes wrong. well anyway hope this helps!

Quite a mouthful there. But very comprehensive. Thank you for the advice. Does anybody think that at least a five man Dev squad with all ML's would be of use.

It could be. Really depends on what the rest of your army looks like.

I have played orks and one thing that really hurts the small groups of boys in trucks is to NOT let them get the charge. That can be hard at times but that is one thing that really hurts orks is for them to not get the charge.

Yeah, that seems to be a big thing. Not letting them charge. Hard to do, though, especially on a Waaaagh! turn. The truck boyz are definately not as scary as the whole squad of foot sloggers that may make it across the line, but still very dangerous.

Don't be afraid to charge 20 boyz with a tactical squad. That is a combat you can easily win, especially if you flame and pistol in.

To be honest, as an Ork player, I'm scared of anything that DOESN'T have the stat line of a Lasgun...

Mostly scared of Flamers, Rockets, and anything that has a decent range like Heavy Bolters and the sort.

Yeah, I commonly forget the pistol shots. Never the flamer though. I think I am gonna try the ML dev squad. Any thoughts on a good way to support them?

U can't really support devs squads other then taking snip scouts which do me wonders againest orks espesically ether 2 five man squads both with snipes and a ml or 1 ten man squad with snipes makes ork players cry when they get hit then pin in the same turn espically if you have a nobstar heading ur way on bikes

other then that just take more heavy weapons to the field if hes hiding them

Looks Infected wrote: snip scouts which do me wonders againest orks espesically ether 2 five man squads both with snipes and a ml or 1 ten man squad with snipes makes ork players cry when they get hit then pin in the same turn espically if you have a nobstar heading ur way on bikes

Hit on 4+, wound on 4+... you can't pin a fearless mob... whose exactly crying?

I haven't really had that much success with the sniper scouts at all. I am probably not gonna be using them much more. I will prolly swich my sniper scouts to cc scouts and storm em up.

Wait nobs are fearless?

I think the have Mob Rule. So if there is enough of them they will be fearless.

i know they get mob rule but doesn't that mean there has to 9 nobs (1 pain boy) in a squad along with a warboss for a total of 11 getting mob rule unless their fearless anyways

Nobs are not standardly fearless. I have sweeping advanced nobs and ghazgull.

Ya, the pinning with snipers seems generally useless against everything because everything has a decent leadership, or some way to re roll leadership tests. Otherwise they are fearless. But CC scouts, on the other hand, seem like they can be a pretty good squad to get the charge against orks and stall them at least a turn on the advance.

Just played against an ork guy today at the FLGS. Vindicators and LR really screwed him over.

Did he run trukks or footsloggers...kan wall? If Trukks or Kans, was the vindicator able to do anything to his transports. Did you fire at the cans at all with the vindicator? Were you using a regular LR. Did he have Deffkoptas? I guess what I am asking is; is there a batrep up, lol? Sorry, lots of questions.

A mix of all. he had 2 mobs full of orks. A unit of 3 cans. 2 Battlewagons with KFF mek aand burnaz. And a trukk with mega nobz.

No batrep. Won't be doing those until my salamanders are completely painted so I can get some nicer pics. If your interested I can PM you a small batrep with no pics just so you can get an idea of what I did.

One of my vindis did pry open his KFF Battlewagon. I ran the redeemer and his kanz went after that along with a deff dread.

PM would be really cool. Much appreciated!!!

Another couple of points (sorry if mentioned by others).

MLs are ideal; as well as a blast for killing boyz, you can instakill anything that's T4.

My SM opponent has a thunderfire cannon. He's never fielded it, but it worries me. IIRC, it leaves areas of difficult terrain, which will slow down footslogging boyz and trukks nicely.

Pinning doesn't worry me as an ork player, though I don't go for small elite units. Ork mobs that matter will benefit from mob rule. Any mob small enough to fail a pinning test is probably only good for securing objectives anyway. Couple with the fact that most units can have bosspoles, and you might as well bring bolters and go for raw damage.

As before, if you can split or slow the ork attack, you've won the game. From the first turn, the clock starts ticking for an ork player, and boyz start dying.