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I was just wondering how strict most people are about this?

For instance if I played a game with you would every tactical marine in my army have to have a bolter bolt pistol and grenades modeled on them, or would one or two per squad be ok?

HAHAHAHAHA...

Good times at my club = I myself (and some others) have done things like using an ENTIRE army proxied. For most normal games I don't even expect to see things like pistols and grenades on models because they don't come standard on many of them.

I remember when Chaos had the option of either bolt pistol/ccw OR a bolter/ccw and you strictly had to model the whole squad that way. Since then I've been very lenient when it comes to upgrades for things. Just make sure to point out what has what, explain the wargear on the HQ's because we all know we swap around weapons and stuff time to time and having to redo models for that sake alone is a headache *see 3 different Necron Lords for just 1 HQ choice* but yeah if you say a guy holding a bolter is shooting a lascannon...I'm going to raise an eyebrow.

Well I was mostly just curious about the stuff on basic troopers. IMO upgrades should be modeled in some fashion on at least one model in the unit, thats the rule I use when modeling my marines. I usually wont complain if your model has an axe that counts as a power weapon, However when it comes to the basic equipment do people expect to see every chaos marine carrying a bolter, bolt pistol, close combat weapon, and grenades?
do they even give you enough bolters/close combat weapon bolt pistol combos to make 10 of them in the box?

Generally people aren't fussed about compulsory equipment.

Where it gets important is optional equipment - make sure you've got that right and you'll be fine.

When I'm playing, so long as each different model is identifiable and consistant, I couldn't care less. For example, you may give your marines all cudgels instead of power fists. If you explain beforehand that every cudgel is a powerfist, and stuck to it, then I couldn't care less.

Hell, you could go more extreme, but I don't think that's what you're going for.

I'm not futzed about it really. Standard issue stuff I do not expect to see on every model (and most times it looks a bit awkward). Just important things like Meltas and las cannons need to be modeled WYSIWYG.

For tanks though, its a bit different. They give you all the optional equipment, so adding, say, a pintle mounted storm bolter may have to be added to the model depending on store/tournament/opponent rules/regs/gripes.

Cheers

Well I have just heard that people at tournaments can be real anal about this kind of stuff.
So its good to hear I dont have to go hunt down like 30 bolt pistols and glue them on my tactical marines

Generlly your fine when it comes to small things like that but even at tournys rules are almost always clearly posted.

At my flgs the rules we use are always always up and easy to see and that is one thing that is clearly adressed.

Personally, I would prefer to see everything modelled appropriately.

But I'm realist enough to not stress about it. Whatever you put on the table is fine... it's ultimately just a game.

Kurgash wrote:I remember when Chaos had the option of either bolt pistol/ccw OR a bolter/ccw and you strictly had to model the whole squad that way.

Man, I remember that, and it was a serious PITA. Thankfully, "you've now got everything!" meant I didn't really have to change them much for the newest codex.

The rule of thumb used to be that you didn't have to model basic pistols, basic CCWs, or any grenades. That is, IMHO, still a pretty good rule of thumb. But, as others have noted, upgrades should be clearly shown (excepting meltabombs, perhaps?).

As far as I'm concerned, if it doesn't come in the box with the rest of the model, you don't have to have it included on the model, for minimalism's sake. However, it should still remain unique and identifiable.

As long as you're clear what's what it's generally okay outside of tournaments. Though you should try and meet wysiwyg on major wargear like weapons, most people are okay with you saying "the sarge has a combiflamer", even if you don't have a combiflamer converted. In tournaments, it's up to the TO basically, so it varies, often widely.

Personally, I am extremely anal about showing wargear on every inch of my army.

However, if you don't have default wargear all shown, I'm alright with it.

Mostly because 1) a Space Marine tac squad has boltgun, bolt pistol, and frag grenades all among their default wargear, but each tac squad box only comes with I believe four bolt pistols in holsters and maybe two in hands. So it's inevitable that at least four of them won't have bolt pistols on the model. Sometimes more. And that's okay. Also 2) for things like IG armies, it's a royal pain to glue grenades on 400 little guardsmen, I'm alright with you just telling me they all have frag grenades.

As for upgrades or non-default wargear, if I don't see it on the model, I may get a little whiny about it, but as long as I know what's what and it's not too hard to keep track of, and I get my juice box, I'll eventually settle down and accept that not everyone is as uptight as me.

Captain Idaeus wrote:I was just wondering how strict most people are about this?

For instance if I played a game with you would every tactical marine in my army have to have a bolter bolt pistol and grenades modeled on them, or would one or two per squad be ok?

I would care less about this. It's standard on them, so you shouldn't have to model it. If you're using a meltagn, I don't care if it's actually a plasmagun. It's an assault weapon, so just tell me before-hand. People are too strict on this kind of thing.

As another example, the Warp Spider Exarch comes equipped with two of his options, and it's pretty impossible to remove either one. So either they aren't really options, since they are on the model it becomes two death spinners AND power blades, or maybe just because the power blades are there doesn't mean they abe to be counted as being in play. But I think it is fair to let your opponent know he isn't being all assault-ready, of course.

SaintHazard wrote:for things like IG armies, it's a royal pain to glue grenades on 400 little guardsmen, I'm alright with you just telling me they all have frag grenades.

That's the thing-- I don't have to tell you they all have frags and CCWs (not that the latter matters, but they have them).

They do, and you can't change that fact. By that same logic, would you say Catachan don't have any armor on and therefor can't count as wearing flak armor? That'd be rather silly of you.

Remember, 5th edition has a nice little rule called Counts As. Be nice to your opponent and let them use it, just be sure they're clear about it.

Melissia wrote:

SaintHazard wrote:for things like IG armies, it's a royal pain to glue grenades on 400 little guardsmen, I'm alright with you just telling me they all have frag grenades.

That's the thing-- I don't have to tell you they all have frags and CCWs (not that the latter matters, but they have them).

They do, and you can't change that fact. By that same logic, would you say Catachan don't have any armor on and therefor can't count as wearing flak armor? That'd be rather silly of you.

Remember, 5th edition has a nice little rule called Counts As. Be nice to your opponent and let them use it, just be sure they're clear about it.

I thought that the first time I looked at them. Then I came to the conclusion that the flak armor is in their pants Since that's all they wear.

Oh, gawd. This could be turned into something disgusting...

Melissia wrote:

Remember, 5th edition has a nice little rule called Counts As. Be nice to your opponent and let them use it, just be sure they're clear about it.

And it's a wonderful rule, allowing for some really cool armies, so long as it's not abused.

Depends. A melta gun is a melta gun is a melta gun. Not a flamer or a plasma gun.

On the other hand, things like SM pistols and grenades aren't upgrades, they're standard. And I don't think GW gives you enough pieces to fully kit out each squad anyway.

Where the line blurs for me is Nid upgrades. I fail to see why additional glands or organs MUST be external, and GW definately doesn't give you enough bitz to equip everything you want to without mail ordering sprues. As the unit as a whole buys the upgrade, I'm totally ofey with simply paying the points cost and reminding your opponent.

Back to the first example though, I don't let people proxy meltas for flamers, HB for las etc. as GW generally supplies enough pieces for those and it's simply confusing.

My Grey Knights only come with incinerators in the box, and I'll be damned if I'll pay $20 for a single model that's exactly the same save for a slightly different gun.

I’m only strict about important things i.e. special weapons but I’m always fine with no grenades. Hell i entered adepticon without grenades on my marines and it was always fine. I don’t even think anyone noticed.even think anyone notised.

i personally couldnt care less. i feel buying into wysiwyg like its some command from god is a bit of GW brainwashing.

seriously though, as long as the base is the right size and the model is roughly the right size and you havent modelled for advantage (a mate of mine had modelled some mycetic pods that seem to allow him about a 12" radius deployment area, AS WELL as offering complete cover for most of his MCs.) then who gives a monkeys.

if youre into the modelling aspect of it, awesome and good for you, i respect your hobby. but i enjoy the competitive aspect of it, and i dont care if youre using legomen, as long as you play hard and fair.

With my Ig I just put the little belts that come in the spruce and tell my opponents that their equipment (grenades, ccw) are in there.

As for special weapons I get picky. They should be modeled. If you start calling one thing something else, half way through the battle ill probably forget whats what.

Yeah, Wysiwyg is completely irrelevant. If I thought that my potential win or loss hung on whether that was a plasma pistol you had or a bolt pistol, I would just quit wargaming. Right. There.

As for people that act like it's impossible to tell who has what, I bring copies of my list from Army Builder to hand opponents. At the same time, I don't take 3 variations of the same squad. For example, if my bolter carrying tactical squad is actually using chainswords and bolt pistols, then ALL my tactical squads are using chainswords and bolt pistols to keep it simply for my opponent, and for me too.

I tend to model my tank weapons in place, to fit a look, and to keep it simple. If someone acts like my standard barrel on a leman russ is too confusing for them to remember that it's a demolisher variant for the game, I wouldn't game with them anyway. I might, however politely offer to drive them to the special Olympics where they belonged and out of my precious gamestore.

I would say that I prefer for units to appear as what they are. Though it isn't anything to do with proxies being confusing or WAAC. I just find there is something psychologically satisfying when everything is properly presented.

Exceptions would be small things that could be put in pockets like pistols and such, it doesn't bother me too much if those aren't shown. Another exception would be if my opponent was using models that there weren't rules for, like a squat army pretending to be Orks. Or maybe a Star Wars Storm Trooper army pretending to be marines or guard. So long as it looked cool and the proxies didn't involve too much guess work.

Though just because I prefer things to look right, that doesn't mean I wouldn't be happy to let you use your heavy bolter as a heavy plasma if you really wanted to.

I have noticed there is a certain stigma attached to WYSIWYG players. Like they are all rules nazis who won't even let you have a grenade unless it's displayed on the model.

But one of the interesting things about WYSIWYG is when it actually conflicts with the RAW. Like if a marine tac squad had an autocannon. This is not really allowed, but if someone has a model for it I would be happy to let them use it. Especially in this case where it seems like an innocent weapon trade.

Of course some people might take it too far...

For example: what if your opponent has a Terminator Captain with a jump pack and two assault cannons named Captain Brofist!? The model is against the rules, but it could easily be made.

To me Captain Brofist sounds like a cheap super weapon designed to be cheap in games, and I'd probably be against letting someone use him.

But on the other hand, rule of cool might play a part... If the model was really awesome cool, pro-painted, well modelled and posed on a flying base with a scratch built jump pack that actually looked like it could lift a terminator (maybe something gyro copter looking). I find it hard to imagine what might be more awesome than a flying Terminator Captain with twin two assault cannon.

And then if the creator told me that they had played a bunch of test games with him and worked out a fair points value (presumably one that was way more than the sum of it's parts, and didn't sound too cheat). Then I would be happy to let them bring Brofist.

So I guess in the end I would say that I like WYSIWYG but I'm not strict about it. If a model conflicts with RAW then I would be inclined to go with WYSIWYG, unless I thought the person was being deliberately cheap, in which case I would call "rules".

Lord Manimal wrote:Yeah, Wysiwyg is completely irrelevant. If I thought that my potential win or loss hung on whether that was a plasma pistol you had or a bolt pistol, I would just quit wargaming. Right. There.

As for people that act like it's impossible to tell who has what, I bring copies of my list from Army Builder to hand opponents. At the same time, I don't take 3 variations of the same squad. For example, if my bolter carrying tactical squad is actually using chainswords and bolt pistols, then ALL my tactical squads are using chainswords and bolt pistols to keep it simply for my opponent, and for me too.

I tend to model my tank weapons in place, to fit a look, and to keep it simple. If someone acts like my standard barrel on a leman russ is too confusing for them to remember that it's a demolisher variant for the game, I wouldn't game with them anyway. I might, however politely offer to drive them to the special Olympics where they belonged and out of my precious gamestore.

That's taking it a bit far. It's not really fair to expect your opponent to keep track of your army. That's your job. If that turret looks like a battle cannon, I'm going to think battle cannon every time I look at it. If I have to remember it's a demolisher, that adds to the work I have to do for you. And it's not like it's difficult to magnetize a couple of Leman Russ barrels to make them interchangable. I've done it. I have a buddy who runs IG with a whole mess of Leman Russ variants and he kept doing exactly what you're describing. He'd field three Leman Russes and tell me that even though they all have battle cannons, this one is a punisher, this one is a demolisher, and this one is an executioner. Then expect me to keep track.

So I offered to magnetize the barrels for him if he got the bitz for the proper variants. He agreed, and now he just takes off the battle cannon and snaps on the executioner barrel when he wants to run that variant instead.

Playing WYSIWYG in this fashion 1) shows creativity and modeling skill on your part, 2) shows courtesy for your opponents and good sportsmanship and 3) keeps things simple and easy for everyone and makes the game more fun.

And if you want to quit wargaming or insult my intelligence (which most people will agree is a gross overreaction from any angle) then I'm not sure I'd want to be playing against you in the first place, because that's not how friendly games go down.

OK, this is something that has been bothering me for some time, and reading some of the posts in this thread has got me worrying.

Looking through my CSM codex a while ago, i saw that all troops had CCWs, Bolt Pistols and Bolters. Do they have all 3 at once, or do they have either bolter/bolt pistol + CCW?
So - could you be shooting someone 24" away with a bolter, and when they get to within 12" Rush forwards 6" shoot with all your bolt pistols and then charge in with CCW and Bolt Pistol?

I have not been able to find this in the rule book

They have all three

NO. You only get one shooting attack per turn. You can choose which weapon you want to use

You can definitely attack in CC with the bolt pistol you just used in your shooting phase. That's fine.

It's in the section called "weapons"

I don't mind, I play friendly games. I've been trying non-stop to get a fully WYSIWYG army, and have finally gotten it down. Except I can't find a Company Commander with a Plasma Pistol. So I use the CREEEEEEEED model.