Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Heya guys,

i´ve been reading this great forum for a long time now, now its time to make my first post

Just played a 8th edition game with my Ogres against Lizardmen. He had a Carnosaurus with Lord. So here´s the question. Do the unsaved wounds from the Carnosaurus´ stomp attacks get changed to D3 wounds?

I thought its a bit overpowered but i found nothing in the Erratas or the BRB.

Any suggestions?

Greetings vom Germany

It says in the lizard book each unsaved wound the carnosaur inflicts is multiplied into D3 wounds....

RaW i say yes it does get multiplied.

There is nothing for the stomp attack saying that it does not follow any rules for the monster... The stomp is a special rule, as is ultimate predator. On page 66 it states, unless otherwise noted, multiple special rules are cumulative.

Also carnosaurs arent overpowered only because if they are taking a oldblood on a carnosaur they arent taking a decent slann in games less than 3000 points.

I believe that Stomp Attacks are considered separate special attacks that don't benefit from any other special rules a model may have. Someone else could correct me on that, though.

Also, Willkommen zu Dakka Dakka!

I would say that it shouldn't, but by RAW I don't see anything that would prevent it from doing D3 wounds on it's stomp.

Well the BRB says : ..."a model with this special rule can make a stomp attack in addition to its other close combat attacks"... my opponent sure says, any unsaved wound caused by the carnosaurus is changed to d3 wounds.

Its also not clearly explained which wounds from which attacks of the saurus change in the lizardmen armybook.


PS: thanks Jin

Ravenfate wrote:Well the BRB says : ..."a model with this special rule can make a stomp attack in addition to its other close combat attacks"... my opponent sure says, any unsaved wound caused by the carnosaurus is changed to d3 wounds.

Its also not clearly explained which wounds from which attacks of the saurus change in the lizardmen armybook :(

Exactly and since it says special rules are cumulative unless otherwise noted.....

Yeah its multiplied...

Might be worth running a carnosaur now... D6 Str 7 autohits. that multiply into D3 wounds hurts....

The 4 WS 3 attacks were kind of underwhelming in 7th for 210 points.

Fortunately, page 45 makes those D3 wound hits less scary.

solkan wrote:Fortunately, page 45 makes those D3 wound hits less scary.

yeah.. Not against ogres or characters tho....

I can see the carnosaur taking something out as tough as the star dragon in one round...

Jurrasic Park 3 moment in my head as the Carnosaur snaps the star dragons neck with its tooth filled maw....


bada$$!

HiveFleet wrote:Jurrasic Park 3 moment in my head as the Carnosaur snaps the star dragons neck with its tooth filled maw....


bada$$!

Actually whats funny is the carnosaur is smaller then the star dragon!!! It is not a large target!

It could jump on it 'raptor' style.

must.....



convert!



but....



too much $$!

I think they SHOULD have put something saying the Stomp attack doesn't use any other special rules, but iirc, it doesn't actually say that. So you get stupid things like a Mark of Slaanesh Giant have his thunderstomp go off at initiative and a carnosaurs thunderstomp doing d3 wounds.

Want to see something funny, cast Briora's Time Warp and Speed of Light on a Carnasaur and suddenly he goes first with everything, including the Stomp Attacks, oh and he gets to re-roll any misses with everything but the Stomp attacks.

I love that. . .

(Briora's Time Warp gives ASF, and some other benefits.)
(Speed of Light gives Initiative 10, WS 10)

citadel97501 wrote:Want to see something funny, cast Briora's Time Warp and Speed of Light on a Carnasaur and suddenly he goes first with everything, including the Stomp Attacks, oh and he gets to re-roll any misses with everything but the Stomp attacks.

I love that. . .

(Briora's Time Warp gives ASF, and some other benefits.)
(Speed of Light gives Initiative 10, WS 10)

OMG... My friend who just got into LM because 8th.... he's gonna love this.

Nah, it doesn't even make sense. The D3 wound is based off the Carnisaur's BITE. Stomp is specifically mentioned as a...stomp or tail swing or whatever.

Stomp and Thunderstomp I wouldn't allow to be modified by anything. They aren't attacks based off the unit, they are Special Rules.

Gorgers don't get killing blow stomp with their extra pointy feet. Or Bone Giants get Unstoppable Assault (on the turn they charge). And I'm sure there are other wacky things out there that are certainly not intended.

Likewise, I don't believe anything can modify Stomp and Thunderstomp to make them go faster. It is a Special Rule, it doesn't have an initiative value. Even the sidebar points out it comes at the end of combat.

The only thing I see affecting Stomp and Thunderstomp is modifying the Str of the owner. It's like Impact Hits. Even if someone is given Always Strikes Last, Impact Hits would ignore that. It's a Special Rule.

DukeRustfield wrote:Nah, it doesn't even make sense. The D3 wound is based off the Carnisaur's BITE. Stomp is specifically mentioned as a...stomp or tail swing or whatever.

Stomp and Thunderstomp I wouldn't allow to be modified by anything. They aren't attacks based off the unit, they are Special Rules.

Gorgers don't get killing blow stomp with their extra pointy feet. Or Bone Giants get Unstoppable Assault (on the turn they charge). And I'm sure there are other wacky things out there that are certainly not intended.

Likewise, I don't believe anything can modify Stomp and Thunderstomp to make them go faster. It is a Special Rule, it doesn't have an initiative value. Even the sidebar points out it comes at the end of combat.

The only thing I see affecting Stomp and Thunderstomp is modifying the Str of the owner. It's like Impact Hits. Even if someone is given Always Strikes Last, Impact Hits would ignore that. It's a Special Rule.

Unfortunately, that point of view is not supported by the rules. Stomp and T-Stomp is cumultive with special rules. The apex predator rule for the carnosaur isnt specific to any bite, it just means that the wounds it does are multiplied into d3 versus large targets. Any wounds. T-Stomp is in place to reflect just how much damage large beasties can do when going to town on their enemies...as it is described as "sweeping tail, stomping feet and slashing claws etc"...the wounds are still all coming from the same creature.

I would agree however that the stomp attack is not affected by Int. Since it does specifically state that it takes place at the end of combat.

The problem with the comparison to Impact Hits is that Impact Hits aren't "hits with Always strike first." They are hits that happen at the beginning of combat.

On the other hand, Stomp attacks DO have an "initiative value" because they are specifically given Always Strikes Last. That is a special rule which has meaning. Specifically that, when combined with Always Strikes First, they cancel out.

If they had said "Stomp attacks happen at the end of combat, no matter what" that would be different. But they didn't.

For example, you agree that if you were attacking a creature with stomp with great weapons (HE excluded), the stomp and the GW attack would happen at the same time? So it certainly does have an initiative value. RaW, it specifically says special rules stack.

DukeRustfield wrote:Nah, it doesn't even make sense. The D3 wound is based off the Carnisaur's BITE. Stomp is specifically mentioned as a...stomp or tail swing or whatever.

Stomp and Thunderstomp I wouldn't allow to be modified by anything. They aren't attacks based off the unit, they are Special Rules.

Gorgers don't get killing blow stomp with their extra pointy feet. Or Bone Giants get Unstoppable Assault (on the turn they charge). And I'm sure there are other wacky things out there that are certainly not intended.

Likewise, I don't believe anything can modify Stomp and Thunderstomp to make them go faster. It is a Special Rule, it doesn't have an initiative value. Even the sidebar points out it comes at the end of combat.

The only thing I see affecting Stomp and Thunderstomp is modifying the Str of the owner. It's like Impact Hits. Even if someone is given Always Strikes Last, Impact Hits would ignore that. It's a Special Rule.

Yeah unfortunantly RaW are very clear cut in this situation. All attacks made by the carnosaur per his special rule multiple into D3 wounds. Special rules always stack unless otherwise noted per the BRB. The stomp attack doesnt mention that it doesnt benefit from special rules. Unless it is faqed the carnosaur stomp does D3 wounds.

Nah. Like I said the special rule is based off his bite. Thunderstomp specifically says it isn't a bite.

Further, Thunderstomp isn't a Carnisaur attack, it is a Monster attack.

If there was an enchantment, say a ring of fire or thorns or whatever that caused a unit to take a hit when attacking the owner, that wouldn't be multiplied by D3 just because it was cast on a Carnisaur. Let's not be silly here. Carnisaurs have big mouths. That's it.

On the Tomb Kings FAQ:
Q. Does a Bone Giant gain extra attacks from wounds caused by its
Thunderstomp special rule? (p31)
A. No

And while you can take that as them excluding only the one case, I find it far more likely that Stomp/Thunderstomp aren't meant to be modified.

Because a Carnisaur is classified as a Monster in the BrB, it gets Thunderstomp. So 4 attacks at Str 7 at D3 wounds each + D6 Str 7 attacks at D3 wounds each. All for the bargain of 210 points. You really think that's what they meant?

Except the bite part you are mentioning is just fluff...

Per the carnosaur ultimate predator rule..

Each unsaved wound that the carnosaur inflicts is multiplied into D3 wounds...

The carnosaur thunderstomps and rolls a 4, 3 of those wound. You look at the special rule. What did the wounds? The carnosaur with thunderstomp! The rule for ultimate predator has been met. Just because it says "The carnosaur's bite is sufficient to dismember any prey in the jungle" doesnt matter, its fluff.

Until the FAQ comes out and answers it for sure, it should be played RaW, which is very clear.

Also for 210 points it wasnt that good before the thunderstomp.... 4 WS3 attacks will hit, 90% of the time, on 4's, and against a bunch of lord level characters on 5's....

Thunderstomp actually brings the thing from meh its ok, to usable.

You also have to look at the fact that if they take a kitted out old blood on carni they wont have a slann unless its like a 3000 point game.... So in lower point level taking the carni is more of a hindrance.

I disagree, and think it likely that when the rulebook FAQ comes out that stomp/thunderstomp attacks will be clarified to not benefit from special rules.

This to me would be similar to the way that adding a piece of wargear to a character that sometimes grants extra "special" attacks. Adding certain spites to treemen, or certain items to skaven characters, give extra attacks but clearly write out how those attacks are resolved. I think this rule will be clarified so that the stomp/thunderstomp attacks are no multiplied into D3 wounds.

I'm not disputing the RAW argument- just saying that I don't think this is going to be the case for long, so I wouldn't get used to playing it that way, imho. Like the "re-usable warpstone tokens" for skaven- sure it was RAW for a little while, but everybody knew that wasn't RAI, so there was no point to taking advantage of it for the month or so that it went unclarified.

Just my $0.02

First off, I want to say I'm not aggro arguing even though I'm posting a lot. Lizardmen are my fav race. Though I'm more Slaan-y.

But here's how I feel very strongly that Stomp/Thunderstomp aren't modified. Because presumably they did some balancing of the creatures before 8th edition. I.e., there is a reason Ogre Bulls cost 35 and Carnisaurs 210 and Rat Ogres 40 and Wyverns 200. Still, they felt overall that big models were at a disadvantage and they gave MI 1 extra attack and MO D6 to balance out. They made them slow, so you could still kill the units and not suffer the attacks (per the sidebar). But if special rules start modifying these auto hit attacks, it can incredibly skew the blanket buff they gave unit types. A Carnisaur having D3 wounds applied to it and a Wyvern not and a Stegadon not vastly shifted the point value of those units. A Wyvern rider of X attributes would get absolutely destroyed by a Carnisaur rider with the same X attributes just because of that one rule. Whereas before they were far closer in power and combat value (as represented by their very similar cost).

You said that Bite was only "fluff." But it's pretty clear it makes the distinction. For example in Vermin Lord its says their Magical Glaives do D3. Well, that's just fluff too. Their Thunderstomp as well should do D3, right? Most weapons are that are multiple wounds will have that entry under the weapon itself. Because they are characters using weapons (obviously). But a Carnisaur doesn't swing a weapon, so it only has its mouth. But they did actually mention the Carnisaur's bite. Which is not a Stomp or Thunderstomp. Just like a Glaive isn't a Stomp or Thunderstomp.

I disagree. The lizardman FAQ specifically calls out the change to the carnosaurs attacks and does not add any qualifier. The multiple wounds rule in the new rulebook doesn't have any limitations, so unless it is FAQ'ed the Carnosaur does multiply wounds.

I realize relying on GW to have caught that combo is foolish, but it stands as written. For extra fun, Give the Old Blood the banner of flaming attacks for stomp attacks of Fire!

I disagree. Saying that the stomp/tstomp attacks get d3, flaming, asf is begging. I know that it's hard to judge intent of the authors. But to me, this is clear. It's a special rule that monsters have gained, anything more than that is really trying to bend the rules...honestly. This would be enough to make me not play the person that is trying to do this with their carnosaur/slaanesh giant, etc.

RaW is pretty clear, but I know deep down that everyone reading this thread or playing WHFB knows that this was not the intent of the authors. Like one of the above posters said, if you are that guy, then play RaW. However, I wouldn't bank on this rule sticking. If you need an erratta/faq to fix this, then I hope it comes sooner than later, and that I don't have to play against you.

My two coppers....

Orkimedess - I entirely disagree, as a carnosaur even with basic Tstomp is still not worth 210 points - however with a buffed tstomp he becomes ALMOST on part with a Slaan.

So no, you are wrong that intent is clear.

Stomps are not attacks because they do not roll to hit!
thats how we do it anyway, but thats a warmachine thing.

Stomps are hits.
Same as impact hits, they are not attacks, because they already hit

Thats just PoV of me and friends

They are attacks that automatically hit, the same as impact hits..

But nothing modifies Impact Hits. A model with Always Strikes Last will still Impact Hit immediately on charge. And they don't get Killing Blows or Poison or whatever.

DukeRustfield wrote:But nothing modifies Impact Hits. A model with Always Strikes Last will still Impact Hit immediately on charge. And they don't get Killing Blows or Poison or whatever.

Agreed and to go a bit further with it, Tstomp is outside the realm of the creatures normal attacks just like impact hits. If you are saying that Tstomp attacks cause d3 wounds then you would also have to say that impacts hits do the same.

Hopefully this will get faq'd soon so we can then start a thread about how the Carnosaurous is OTT or just put to bed.