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So I'm pretty new to 40k and I've been lurking around the forums for a while reading and trying to learn what opinions were and ideas for different things (I try to make informed decisions before I jump into anything), and I noticed the many comments on female Space Marines. I'm not asking why not. I've read enough pros and cons, and even played devil's advocate with a friend who is a self-declared "Master of the Fluff" and I just wanted to ask a larger community why is the 40k community so galvanized against having Female Space Marines?

I'm not for or against them, I just want to know why the majority of the gaming community seems dead-set on making women feel more excluded from the game itself (You can't tell me it doesn't because I've already met three girls who tell me to avoid 40k and just play War Machine instead because of this "bull-crap sexism"). It just doesn't make sense to me as a newcomer who's just gotten started in the fluff and the warfare, and I wanted to see if anyone could shed some light on it for me.

Because humanity as a general rule has a double standard for genders, and in most cases they make sense. In almost every culture/civilization/tribe that has ever existed, female participation in warfare has always been incomprehensible, if not downright forbidden.

Obviously the Sisters of Battle open up a can of worms, but generally speaking women are supposed to be pretty, delicate, valuable, and therefore protected. The image of muscular women repulses me and most men AND women I know. Now take that muscular woman, and make her 8 feet tall with even more muscles, and all sorts of disgusting modifications. You can see why a female space marine isn't very attractive and is actually quite repulsive.

To those females who say that 40k is "bull-crap sexism", ask them how many ALL female armies War Machine has.

1) There has never in the fluff been any mention of female Space marines; No outright denial of the possibility it could happen, but never any mention of the though ever arising.

2) This does not mean that it is forbidden, in fact I don't think it has ever even occurred to the ecclesiarchy that they *could* possibly turn females into Space Marines.

3) The Candidacy for Space marine Adepts requires the Aspirant be from a Blood-thirsty warrior Culture, generally located in a death world. While such a Culture and environment would create Women with strong Martial Views and a certain degree of ingrained toughness, most such cultures look to the women more as a precious resource for survival than a tool for battle(You would be hard pressed to find any Real world cultures in extreme environs that ever allowed women into battle, No matter how Martial-centric the culture was. In fact the closest you would find was the Norse and while the women were trained for battle that was only for the defense of the homestead while the men were "aviking")

4) Space Marines are a Monastic Order; Monastic Orders are traditionally male only; women go to the Nunnery. And as the Space marines are Battle-Monks, the Sisters of Battle are Battle-Nuns.

5) Most accounts state Marines are Sterile(as part of the Conditioning and, for lack of a better term, chemotherapy to make them Marines) So taking a woman from the recruitment worlds and then Sterilizing her would be abhorrent, as that world's culture(and thus the recruitment base) would likely die.

6) None of the above are to say that Women couldn't "hack it" as space marines, just that it is not a "good" Idea.

eNvY: All female armies in Warmachine could be done in 2 ways; the Protectorate, or Legion of everblight(although for legion you would have to buy several boxes of the various units and only use the female models). Also through Khador you can make an All Female-Led Army.

Kommissar Kel wrote:1) There has never in the fluff been any mention of female Space marines; No outright denial of the possibility it could happen, but never any mention of the though ever arising.

Index Astartes states explicitly that the implantation process requires an adolescent male because the implants are keyed to the hormones and tissue type of a male of that stage of development.

Index Astartes wrote:These considerations mean that only a small proportion of people can become Space Marines. They must be male because zygotes are keyed to male hormones and tissue types, hence the need for tissue compatibility tests and psychological screening.

Your friend being "self-declared" is a big part of his title, if he's convinced you that female space marines are a good thing. The thing is, most people are anti-femmarines, because it just isn't practical. Not only are femmarines stated to be impossible in the fluff, even if they were, the amount of muscular enhancement and growth would diminish feminine features to the point that it becomes moot. Not to mention the removal of all sexual organs, so that they couldn't be classified as either anyways.

In terms of fluff, Raxmei is correct.

In terms of the internet and modern human society's disposition for sexual deviance, sculpt all the boobmarines you like. After all, at least you aren't a furfag.
Unless you are.

Go ahead and do it. Ignore the people who whine, if they weren't whining about your army they'd be whining about someone else's.

Here's the thing about female space marines. Fine, your chapter is all females... you can model them differently and put a head on 'em, but you wouldn't (shouldn't) get the female form going on in the armor. Armor isn't designed that way, no matter what WoW armors taught you.

So really, throw a helmet on them, call them female, and woo-hoo?

Realistically speaking even Sisters shouldn't have breasts on their armor. Historical plate armor didn't show contour there for practical reasons. In the modern day US Army women wear the exact same armor as men too. If female marines did exist you wouldn't be able to tell except for some head swaps.

Lets break down some 40k Armies regarding gender balance:

Marines (All flavours): Fluff states that they must be male, aside from this 8ft tall bald screaming females that would likely have their estrogen(sp?) suppressed probably shouldnt be considered women.

Guard: Not sure, I believe I've seen a female guardsman (guardswoman?) mentioned.

Demons: Genderless, Slaneesh is arguably both, or whichever he/she feels like bgeing on the day.

Sisters of Battle: Entirely made up of Females I believe.

Orks: Genderless, generally considered to be male.

Necrons: Genderless, I believe the necrontyr were probably fairly equal in gender, though no fluff I'm aware of states this.

Tau: I have no idea..someone will have to enlighten me.

Kroot: See Tau.

Tyranids: Arguably genderless.

Eldar: Mixed Gender, I would assume that there is a stronger male presence throughout, though women do hold positions of power (Farseers etc).

Dark Eldar: Mixed gender, and probably the army with the most gender equality. It is possible to field an all female force of Wyches.

I guess the problem the females you mentioned likely have with 40k females, is that they seem to be either twisted sadist types (Dark Eldar) or crazed lunatics that were/are being used by some dirty old men (Sisters, though I'm sure thats an oversimplificaion, I have no doubts Melissa will clear things up ), I have no idea how War Machine differs from this, but I imagine its much the same, though possibly with the Sultry Seductress type thrown into the mix.
I would ask those people how they expect women to be represented in 40k? Do they want to see down and dirty IG guardswomen, or do they feel that a softer side needs to be entered into?

del'Vhar wrote:Tau: I have no idea..someone will have to enlighten me.

Kroot: See Tau.

Tau have both genders and the whole fire caste fight. Men and women. I imagine provisions are made for reproduction but Shadowsun is one of the Tau Heros

As to kroot??? They are of avian descent but have an unusual genetic quirk. I think they reproduce asexually but honestly can't even remember whether they are hatched or regurgitated. Chalk them up as genderless untill more is known.



About the SMs. IMO, They are male and will always be male in the game of 40K. I am not saying this out of hate or sexism but rather that I recognize the decision as a writing convention. It goes like this:

a)Space marines are of a rare genetic geneseed
b)This rarity explains why there are other armies and why SMs are the grimdark few, the grimdark proud, the grimdark SMs.
c)First couple of Female SM generations would most likely be forced into being brood mares by the Imperium.(This opens the story line up to greater level of sexist criticism than the no female SM policy.)
d)Because the Female SMs are quickly reproducing new generations, they end up populating the galaxy with SMs
d)Space marines take over the universe
e)All armies become SM and the game stagnates to a boring homogeny
f)If you try to say that the geenseed makes the women sterile it opens a similar argument(Ad Mech could do something)

SM being restricted to male only limits the amount of sexism accusations to just one area. For GW this is easier and less embarrassing than trying to answer questions about why female SM's were used as brood mares or if they go with a sterilization story, why they can't reproduce.

It seriously kills the whole fluff about SM's. They are designed to be male only.

del'Vhar wrote:
Guard: Not sure, I believe I've seen a female guardsman (guardswoman?) mentioned.

The guard is happy so long as you can hold a gun and die for the emperor. And women do that just as well as men.

Sisters of Battle: Entirely made up of Females I believe.

Legally, they have to be all women. The ecclesiary took advantage of a loophole in the papers saying that they couldn't have a force of men capable for combat, or something like that. They took the RAW all the way to 11.

Tau: I have no idea..someone will have to enlighten me.

I'm fairly sure it's equal. Look at commanders like Shadowsun.

Tyranids: Arguably genderless.

Completely genderless. Similar to the Orkz, they don't exchange genetic material. There's no male or female to be found.

Eldar: Mixed Gender, I would assume that there is a stronger male presence throughout, though women do hold positions of power (Farseers etc).

Nope, completely equal. No gender restrictions in Eldar society. In fact, when a male Eldar enters the temple of the Howling Banshees, they actually take on a feminine identity, they are regarded as sisters, despite being male.

Dark Eldar: Mixed gender, and probably the army with the most gender equality. It is possible to field an all female force of Wyches.

Screw gender equality, screw gender altogether. So long as you have a place on your body where sexual torture instrument #367 may be inserted into, they don't care.

Generally, everything in 40k is actually either fairly equal, or androgynous. The two blatant exceptions being Space Marines and Sisters. Space Marines are so loaded with hormones, steroids, and implants that they can't even be considered human. They're rendered completely infertile, and one could hesitate to call them male were it not for their identity during their days as a normal human (I swear, if you saw a naked Space Marine, their testicles would probably be smaller than raisins). Short of their masculine appearance, Space Marines are actually probably the most immasculated race in 40k. Were there to be female Space Marines, they'd probably be exactly like their (somewhat) male counterparts. Except instead of a shriveled up penis, they'd have a shriveled up vagina. And don't even think of breasts, the hormones and steroids would get rid of those completely. You wouldn't even be able to tell the difference. And as for Sisters... well... it's in the label.

Really, the problem with gender representation lies not in the fluff, but in the models. The number of male gaurdsmen to female guardsmen should generally be equal (except in more traditional worlds, which tend to have rules as to who they recruit, such as the Vostroyan First Born). However, GW tends to just make male models. This could probably be attributed to two things:

First and formost, GW tends to cater towards a male audience. The whole soldiers-war-kill-maim-burn-pillage-plunder thing has been aimed at boys since the beginning of time. Since it's the male market who tends to take to it most, it's in GW's best interest to focus on relatable characters. And, unsuprisingly, men relate to men.

Secondly, the male form has always been considered the neutral standard, as far as representation goes. androgynous characters tend to be fairly male in their appearance. Scientifically speaking, this is wrong, since we all start out as females in the womb (suggesting that a truly androgynous character would probably incorperate female features and form). It's just that art has always been dominated by male artists. So the male body became the standard. It took us hundreds of years before the female nude was acceptable in art. The male form is, viewed by society, simply more neutral. And when trying to appeal to the biggest audience, neutral is good.

Khantos, did you know that there are modelers, hobbyists, and even 40K players that are female? Well there are. I'm sorry your girl friends are angry they can't be space marines. I'd like to point out there is nothing stopping them from collecting space marines.

They can of course, model female marines if they like, or make male sisters of Battle, or anything they like. As long as they don't try to force their home made chapter down anyone's throats, they are free to do as they please.

It's crazy people passionately arguing about sexual discrimination in the 40K universe and demanding change. It's a game that shows a grim and violent future with no hope for anyone. Just because the Space Marines do not take women does not make GW sexist anymore than the Historical Gamers who recreate World War II are for not putting girls in on the front line. They are portraying a world of conflict and chaos, not proposing that this is a utopia, the way the world ought to be. It's a world of persecution, superstition, paranoia, and all manner of pain, including specific gender roles.

My opinion, anyway.
Dreg

In the grim dark future of the 41st millenium, there is only sexual discrimination!

But hey, we havn't gone completely back into the dark ages! When you consider how much man-love gets thrown around in the fluff, gay rights are at an all-time high!

eNvY wrote:Because humanity as a general rule has a double standard for genders, and in most cases they make sense.

it's not double standards. Female space marheens are SOB.

anyway, The reason they're not used in SM is because they're more expected to just keep up the population. [with full respect for all women.] they're not even considered for the position because space marine armour is handed down. it's also interesting to note that the body is adapted, and womens bodies are too different to alter human genetic alteration technology. the imperium doesn't have the technology/brainpower to do so.

Anyway, off from that, there isn't really a difference between man and women when you're covered in power armour.

Cool. Thanks for the input guys. I was just curious about the galvanization of it all.

I'm glad you all were so polite about the question. I honestly expected to be attacked and insulted because I asked (it's what seems to happen every time this subject gets brought up), and my friends who've introduced me to the game actually were quite sure I'd get attacked. So thanks again for all the input.

The grognards tend to get tired of the question since it comes up fairly frequently, often in the context of some guy's clever and unique all-female chapter with tastefully resculpted cuirasses. It's easy for that sort of discussion to go the wrong way.

Since I hate most space marine chapters I'd encourage you to mod an entire female chapter to infuriate the space marine players. . It doesn't really matter what your friend says as long as you enjoy your army and it can represent what your fielding on the table. Plus there are mentions of mostly/all female guard regiments. And There are definitely more men involved in fantasy/40k than women. But to say theres only men involved would be a lie. Any army idea could pretty much be fielded if you can make the models representing it awesomely done.

I guess that makes sense, never thought of it from that point of view (being new to it and all). But, I now have a new question. What the heck does "grognard" mean?

Prick, witch, fart, codger, dick, etc.

Doctor Thunder (I think that is his username) did some pretty cool fluff regards some chaos female marines which I thought was really interesting.

If I ever get round to it, I might make a unit or two of his style of female marines based on his fluff.

I will have a look for his thread/fluff.

Link. Though I'm not sure how much of his fluff/background is in there, there is definately some.

Old soldier, one who grumbles. Informally, a wargamer. Borrowed from the French, who used it in reference to the stalwart but rather grumpy veterans of the Imperial Guard.

Semi - OT: have there ever been rules for a Sisters of Silence force / squad on the tabletop? Done right, that could be extremely cool.

Everything in 40k can be male or female, except that:
Space Marines must be male
and
Sisters of Battle must be female

People that think that 40k is sexist are full of gak.
Hell, 40k could be less sexist than modern life, as there is less human vs human squabbling and more human vs everything else.

I don't think the "community" is galvanised against femals SMs.

Plenty of people are cool with the idea.

androgynous characters tend to be fairly male in their appearance

Why does this somehow strike me as being self-contradictory?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ph34r wrote:Hell, 40k could be less sexist than modern life, as there is less human vs human squabbling and more human vs everything else.

The Imperium is an equal opportunity oppressor.

It's the players that are sexist, not the Imperium.

Maybe I'm mistaken, but I read the OP's question to be, not why do people think Female Marines are bad, but why are they so passionate in that view? I'm not sure how accurately I can answer that second question without violating Dakka Rule #1, but I'll try.

First, the internet tends to polarize debates. With no ability add body language, inflection, etc. to a conversation, we only have words to make our point, and frequently we use the strongest speech possible. This is true about nearly all online discussions, however, and I think that even by that standard the FSM debate is a doozy.

Second, as others have mentioned, many of the results of people creating FSMs have been... regrettable. Very every well done, tastefully modelled and interesting FSM chapter, there are just as many "Marines with Boobs!" It's frankly a little embarrassing.

Third, the fluff, while not completely binding, has both positive and negative evidence against FSMs. The oft quoted statement from IA shows that at least the standard Imperial procedure will not work on females. In addition, there has been no reference to an FSM in anything official. While it's a big galaxy and anything can happen, FSMs would almost assuredly be extremely rare.

Fourth, in the current real world, women are both on average and at their maximum shorter, lighter, and weaker than men. For a hyper elite warrior cult, it seems ridiculous to recruit anything other than the top 1% of the pool. That's a strong argument until you realize that the genetic pressures in 40k have created hobbits and ogres out of human stock, so a matriarchal death world can't possibly be that far out of line.

Even after taking those into account, it doesn't explain why most debates don't end with "well, they're not supported by the fluff and usually look kinda dumb, but it's your army." Something is fueling this debate, and it's not adherence to canon.

It's easy to brand opponents as sexist or chauvinist, and odds are the label is accurate for more than a few. I don't think it's a general chauvinism, but rather simply part of the escapist wish fulfillment that is 40k. 40k is a world where might makes right, the good guys win at least a little more often, and nobody is worried about feelings or rights. It is a very masculine world, and Space Marines are the embodiment of that.

So, I think that the opposition is fueled at least partially by a simple longing to avoid the complexities of the contemporary world.

Fourth, in the current real world, women are both on average and at their maximum shorter, lighter, and weaker than men.

Meh, people exaggerate this far, far too much. The difference between a male and female human is negligible to the point of irrelevance in 40k.

For tabletop reference, the difference between a male and female Inquisitor, in and out of power armor, is... the look of the model and nothing else. They're all S3/T3.

Melissia wrote:Meh, people exaggerate this far, far too much. The difference between a male and female human is negligible to the point of irrelevance in 40k.

Which I suspect is part of the reason that so many "female" conversions/models have such huge boobs (aside from the sulptors liking boobs ) - so that you can tel lthe figure is female when looking at it on the table.