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Obviously, large blocks of stubborn infantry are going to be the "in thing" with the latest edition. With the lance only requiring three knights to be actually engaged against an enemy unit, but (if 9 strong) with 7 able to strike back it seems like they could still deal some hurt without taking many attacks back by having a small frontage. Am I missing something? Is this still not enough?

In all honesty I have posted several things here on dakka about Bretonnians. Right now as it would seem and some would disagree with me but those at my Local Gaming Store agree with me that Bretonnians are not a viable army anymore and the lances are one of those reasons. Case and Point, Chaos knights are Str 5 Base, Yes no lances, and so therefore since breaking units is so hard now those Chaos knights will continue to hit like Mac trucks, meanwhile us Bretonnians get screwed because after the initial hit at Str 5 then we get pushed down to Str 3 which even a Skaven slave block wouldn't even wince at. Then to add insult to injury we are only Init 3 meaning pretty much everything but Skaven slaves and Empire units will be striking us first. The only two things we still have going for us is the Lance Formation which is still useful because basically a full unit of 15 knights now acts like an infantry block and our 2+ saves. Other than that, yeah, I'm boxing up my Brets until GW decides to give us a new codex and hopefully we'll get something like Empire full plate or Chaos armor, 1+ saves for everyone!

Slaves are an I 4 btw!!!

But yeah with I 3 you wont hit first vs much.

ShivanAngel wrote: Slaves are an I 4 btw!!!

Thank you ShivanAngel you just proved my point.

Again I'm boxing Brets until GW gives us a new codex!

Yeah, I'm thinking the best Bretonnian army is going to be 3-4 big blocks of Men At Arms with as many Trebuchets as you can fit, a Lvl 4 Wizard, BSB, fighty character on horse, and a unit or two of Knights.

Since Knights are no longer unit breakers, they need to be put on flanks where they will face other calvary and ideally wreck them before turning to the flank. Trebuchets are really good with the buffs to stone throwers and are pretty cheap.

I was hoping there was a Lore of Magic that allowed you to give a unit ASF, but unfortunately I could not find one :(

Yes, the lance is still viable, but only the turn you charge. After you charge then do a combat reform immediately to a standard formation, as this will reduce the width of the flanks as well give you more attacks...use ranked up men at arms to support the flanks, and make sure your BSB is as sturdy as hell.....


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eNvY wrote:Yeah, I'm thinking the best Bretonnian army is going to be 3-4 big blocks of Men At Arms with as many Trebuchets as you can fit, a Lvl 4 Wizard, BSB, fighty character on horse, and a unit or two of Knights.

Since Knights are no longer unit breakers, they need to be put on flanks where they will face other calvary and ideally wreck them before turning to the flank. Trebuchets are really good with the buffs to stone throwers and are pretty cheap.

I was hoping there was a Lore of Magic that allowed you to give a unit ASF, but unfortunately I could not find one :(

Lore of Light....Briona's Timewarp..you get ASF as well as +1 attack.....

eNvY wrote: Yeah, I'm thinking the best Bretonnian army is going to be 3-4 big blocks of Men At Arms with as many Trebuchets as you can fit, a Lvl 4 Wizard, BSB, fighty character on horse, and a unit or two of Knights.

Since Knights are no longer unit breakers, they need to be put on flanks where they will face other calvary and ideally wreck them before turning to the flank. Trebuchets are really good with the buffs to stone throwers and are pretty cheap.

I was hoping there was a Lore of Magic that allowed you to give a unit ASF, but unfortunately I could not find one :(

You see that was my whole reason for play Bretonnians though was I loved the whole knight theme. In my army I had no men at arms I tried archers but they sucked really badly so I dropped them in favor of the stubborn Grail Reliquae. Anyway now that men at arms are the whole infantry block thing I really don't think Bretonnians are what I want to play anymore I would rather do an Empire army whose soldiers are actually good. men at arms suck and as a block will only hold for a turn or two against similar infantry blocks anyway WS2, I mean really! Their hitting things WS 5 on 5's which in WHFB is a pretty common WS now.

freddieyu1 wrote: Yes, the lance is still viable, but only the turn you charge. After you charge then do a combat reform immediately to a standard formation, as this will reduce the width of the flanks as well give you more attacks...use ranked up men at arms to support the flanks, and make sure your BSB is as sturdy as hell.....

Yes your right you can reform after the initial hit. The only problem is your now Str 3, your still Init 3, oh and now that you reformed you lost your ranks so now your easier to break. Even if you do back it up with men at arms units (which btw requires a bit of maneuvering in itself) more than likely their gonna break the knights, the Men at Arms are gonna swing only to miss with their crappy WS, and then their gonna break the men at arms. Now you just lost two units to an infantry block, doesn't matter what block, it just matters that you just lost twice the points of your opponents units.

bret cavalry is still awfully hard to kill relative to the infantry they'd be fighting. also, with 3 ranks in a lance, it's possible to physically kill enough of certain enemies to prevent them being steadfast... especially with grail knights or multiple lances of other types of knights. Pegasus knights are still excellent, and bowmen can now wound things they previously couldn't (still going to struggle to hit them, but y'know). And I think they're the only army with heroic killing blow, which is MUCH better than the old virtue used to be.

Brets are a viable army, though not as good as they used to be.

The thing is, I think the Bretonnians are no longer going to be able to just storm up the field with their knights and plough into the front of big blocks of enemy infantry block and break them. I think they're going to have to hold enemy blocks in place with infantry and the strike at the flanks with knights.

This strikes me as a good thing.

I don't know what you all are talking about but I3 is faster than:
most Lizardmen (not skinks)
most Ogres (not gnoblars)
All Greenskins
All Dwarfs
All Tomb Kings

It's pretty good. That's just from a Core unit perspective. Special/Rare/Heroes are all over the place, obviously.

Is not faster than:
Skaven
High elves
Dark elves
Wood elves
Most Daemons (not nurgle)
WoC

And are equal with empire, beastmen, VC etc.

I was hoping for a rule that gave cavalry +2 iniative on the charge because it would Completely make sense. As in reality The lance would just Smash entire core blocks to pieces unless they had spears.
But GW love to make no sense as usual.

Doesn't affect me as i play elves but i just found it stupid as you get to stab every member of a charging cav unit with your clubs and swords, Before they even get to you?
Or it should cause Lots of impact hits. but oh well.

But if you lance someone in the flank! then it would still be very viable

Most Daemons (not nurgle)

The only nurgle Daemon ever used is the Great Unclean One and he strikes before any other model in the entire game!

Sanguinis wrote:

eNvY wrote: Yeah, I'm thinking the best Bretonnian army is going to be 3-4 big blocks of Men At Arms with as many Trebuchets as you can fit, a Lvl 4 Wizard, BSB, fighty character on horse, and a unit or two of Knights.

Since Knights are no longer unit breakers, they need to be put on flanks where they will face other calvary and ideally wreck them before turning to the flank. Trebuchets are really good with the buffs to stone throwers and are pretty cheap.

I was hoping there was a Lore of Magic that allowed you to give a unit ASF, but unfortunately I could not find one :(

You see that was my whole reason for play Bretonnians though was I loved the whole knight theme. In my army I had no men at arms I tried archers but they sucked really badly so I dropped them in favor of the stubborn Grail Reliquae. Anyway now that men at arms are the whole infantry block thing I really don't think Bretonnians are what I want to play anymore I would rather do an Empire army whose soldiers are actually good. men at arms suck and as a block will only hold for a turn or two against similar infantry blocks anyway WS2, I mean really! Their hitting things WS 5 on 5's which in WHFB is a pretty common WS now.

freddieyu1 wrote: Yes, the lance is still viable, but only the turn you charge. After you charge then do a combat reform immediately to a standard formation, as this will reduce the width of the flanks as well give you more attacks...use ranked up men at arms to support the flanks, and make sure your BSB is as sturdy as hell.....

Yes your right you can reform after the initial hit. The only problem is your now Str 3, your still Init 3, oh and now that you reformed you lost your ranks so now your easier to break. Even if you do back it up with men at arms units (which btw requires a bit of maneuvering in itself) more than likely their gonna break the knights, the Men at Arms are gonna swing only to miss with their crappy WS, and then their gonna break the men at arms. Now you just lost two units to an infantry block, doesn't matter what block, it just matters that you just lost twice the points of your opponents units.

Ah that is not automatic you know....people still got to roll the dice.....and there are such things as questing knights with great weapons.....

sebster wrote:The thing is, I think the Bretonnians are no longer going to be able to just storm up the field with their knights and plough into the front of big blocks of enemy infantry block and break them. I think they're going to have to hold enemy blocks in place with infantry and the strike at the flanks with knights.

This strikes me as a good thing.

I agree on this.

Sanguinis wrote:

eNvY wrote: Yeah, I'm thinking the best Bretonnian army is going to be 3-4 big blocks of Men At Arms with as many Trebuchets as you can fit, a Lvl 4 Wizard, BSB, fighty character on horse, and a unit or two of Knights.

Since Knights are no longer unit breakers, they need to be put on flanks where they will face other calvary and ideally wreck them before turning to the flank. Trebuchets are really good with the buffs to stone throwers and are pretty cheap.

I was hoping there was a Lore of Magic that allowed you to give a unit ASF, but unfortunately I could not find one :(

You see that was my whole reason for play Bretonnians though was I loved the whole knight theme. In my army I had no men at arms I tried archers but they sucked really badly so I dropped them in favor of the stubborn Grail Reliquae. Anyway now that men at arms are the whole infantry block thing I really don't think Bretonnians are what I want to play anymore I would rather do an Empire army whose soldiers are actually good. men at arms suck and as a block will only hold for a turn or two against similar infantry blocks anyway WS2, I mean really! Their hitting things WS 5 on 5's which in WHFB is a pretty common WS now.

freddieyu1 wrote: Yes, the lance is still viable, but only the turn you charge. After you charge then do a combat reform immediately to a standard formation, as this will reduce the width of the flanks as well give you more attacks...use ranked up men at arms to support the flanks, and make sure your BSB is as sturdy as hell.....

Yes your right you can reform after the initial hit. The only problem is your now Str 3, your still Init 3, oh and now that you reformed you lost your ranks so now your easier to break. Even if you do back it up with men at arms units (which btw requires a bit of maneuvering in itself) more than likely their gonna break the knights, the Men at Arms are gonna swing only to miss with their crappy WS, and then their gonna break the men at arms. Now you just lost two units to an infantry block, doesn't matter what block, it just matters that you just lost twice the points of your opponents units.

Im with sanguinis i play Brettonians and im done with my knights not being able to do anything anymore and i hate men-at-arms. So im doing the same im boxing up my Brets for an empire army which is much more diverse and fun to play right now. Im not sure yet if i will sell the brettonians or not.

I really don't understand the whole bashing of Men-at-arms. They're 5 pts a model and coupled with a damel casting Wyssan's Wildform they can be extremely useful. Giving them S5 and T4 can be a pretty nice block of guys. By themselves they might not be the best, but that's not what an army is for, they're supposed to work together.

The new rules for Bretonnians do make them weaker, however you just have to play more tactically, and I think that was GWs idea. They don't want the Knights to easily just march through large blocks of units. Instead you have to play smart, hold the line with the Men-at-arms or Grail Relique and flank charge with knights. Lay down trebuchet fire onto larger groups to weaken them up, then charge in with your knights. You just have to play with a little more tactics then just charging the enemy down.

I really don't see the need for the animosity.

The whole idea of bretonnia is to destroy your opponent with a solid "glorious" charge in the front. Not wait for the peasants to catch up.... then skulk around and hit them while they are distracted.

The reason i played bretonnia was for the nights not the peasants. and i find myself relying more and more on them as the days go by... equaling no fun for me. Rather just play a unique empire army with a sweet color scheme.

IHEARTLARGEBLASTTEMPLATES wrote:The whole idea of bretonnia is to destroy your opponent with a solid "glorious" charge in the front. Not wait for the peasants to catch up.... then skulk around and hit them while they are distracted.

The reason i played bretonnia was for the nights not the peasants. and i find myself relying more and more on them as the days go by... equaling no fun for me. Rather just play a unique empire army with a sweet color scheme.

Do not lose faith. I am sure this will be rectified in their next army book....

You can start an empire army in addition to the bret army. Despite both being human armies, as you know they play very differently.

Thats true should i do 2 armies for fantasy i mean i dont know seems like alot? but i guess that helps so i dont get bored of an army i can just switch around. that might be a good idea 2 armies for fantasy 2 for 40k

Meh i have 3 fantasy armies... No reason you cant do 2

IHEARTLARGEBLASTTEMPLATES wrote:Thats true should i do 2 armies for fantasy i mean i dont know seems like alot? but i guess that helps so i dont get bored of an army i can just switch around. that might be a good idea 2 armies for fantasy 2 for 40k

well, many of the "veteran" hobbyists out there (me included) collect several armies..you can see them on my signature....but we do have favorites.....

yeah i know i just hate working on so many different armies. i currently have four want to sell 3. It would be nice to start from scratch cause the 3 i dont like i was little and new so just wasted money on useless units/or built them with totally wrong weapons and threw the extra bitz. Needless to say i just want a clean slate

IHEARTLARGEBLASTTEMPLATES wrote: The whole idea of bretonnia is to destroy your opponent with a solid "glorious" charge in the front. Not wait for the peasants to catch up.... then skulk around and hit them while they are distracted.

The reason i played bretonnia was for the nights not the peasants. and i find myself relying more and more on them as the days go by... equaling no fun for me. Rather just play a unique empire army with a sweet color scheme.

Yes I completely and utterly agree that was my whole reason for starting a Bretonnian army I really think that Bretonnians had some awesome looking units and some really awesome tactics charging the enemy and swatting them out of the way with your lances and forcing them to run it always reminded me of the scene from Lord of the Rings where Gandolf comes in at the last minute with the Riders of Rohan and breaks the Mordor army that is assualting Helms Deep. That scene was actually one of the things that made me start fantasy and that is why I liked the Bretonnians. Now its more like you have to meneuver your forces into position then charge and with how powerful cannons are right now forget it if you play an Empire or Dwarf army. I think I'm just gonna stick with my HE's and maybe do my Empire gunline army.

freddieyu1 wrote: Do not lose faith. I am sure this will be rectified in their next army book....

You can start an empire army in addition to the bret army. Despite both being human armies, as you know they play very differently.

Thats exactly what I'm gonna wait for and if it doesn't then I'll just sell them and use the money to start a 3rd Fantasy army or a 5th 40k Army.

Yes i agree the reason i bought Bret i like the idea of one big glorious charge with all my knights against the front of a spear wall! Who doesnt love that?

Now Bret. plays like okay heres my 40 peasants put them in front of my knights they charge first now my knights tactically wheel around the side of the enemy while they are distracted. All the while hoping the peasants dont get ruthlessly slaughtered. Yeah no thanks

Playing Bretonnia for the Peasants is like buying Playboy to read the articles.

I'm undecided about my Brets. I don't like the peasants and my knights can't do their job anymore. I'm not certain I want to reward GW for screwing over my army by buying more stuff.

Crimson Devil wrote:Playing Bretonnia for the Peasants is like buying Playboy to read the articles.

Sigged. Best thing I've seen this week.

dangit self destruct! i was gonna sic that hahaha that is a beautiful quote. yeah im either selling my bret. or boxing them up.

Sanguinis wrote:we are only Init 3 meaning pretty much everything but Skaven slaves and Empire units will be striking us first

I would not be so hasty with that brush. 9 armies have Initiative 3 or lower, 6 armies have higher.

Initiative 3 or Lower 6
* Bretonnia
* Dwarfs
* Tomb King Skeletons
* Empire
* Lizardmen Saurus
* Ogre Kingdoms
* Orcs and Goblins
* Beastmen
* Vampire Counts

Initiative 4 or Higher
* High Elves
* Wood Elves
* Dark Elves
* Skaven
* Daemons of Chaos
* Warriors of Chaos



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Sanguinis wrote:You see that was my whole reason for play Bretonnians though was I loved the whole knight theme.

And I think thats the whole reason for the QQ. (I mean no disrespect, we all QQ from time to time)
Armies now will need to use man at arms blocks in addition to knights. Knights are still going to be your 'go to' troops, with blocks there for support.

Here is a battle report of how I see the proper use of knights.
http://il.youtube.com/watch?v=xY7XH8le9pI&feature=related

I personally think that bretonnians remain a massively playable army. But the tactics have changed. You now have to play max size units of knights in lance formation supported by artillery and magic. This will give you more than enough ranks to prevent all but the cheapest troops from being steadfast, especially if you put in a character or two/buff the unit with magic/drop a rock on your target. Hit them with one massive lance and a smaller one for kills and things should go pretty much like they did last edition-you just have to be more careful in target selection.

I have a Bretonnian modelling question:

The Knights of the Realm and the Grail Knights models look strikingly similar. I'd go so far to say as the Knights of the Realm look better, and are significantly cheaper. So I'm thinking I'll just try and convert some Knights of the Realm to make them stand out and look like important knights. One option I was considering was using Chaos Knight horses to make them look mean and intimidating. Can anybody else think of any ideas?