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First, if you cast Time Warp on a Stank does it do anything? Does it make each SP 6" instead of 3"?

Second, can you cast prayers on a wizard who has transformed into a mountain chimera, fire dragon, etc?

The tank has no M value, so no - it does nothing as regards movement.

Yes, as the wizard remains a character and is hopefully friendly...

On the Stank, it does have a Movement value.
The value is "special" which is further defined as 3" per Steam Point.

I see no reason its movement isn't doubled from Timewarp.

Because you double the movement value. Which is special. Good luck with your 2*special movement.

Cheers I will.

Special = 3" per Steam Point.

As you say 2*Special = 2(3" per Steam Point) = 6" per Steam Point

Doubling a non-number has no value.

???

Double movement.

Stank movement = 3" per SP, or 3*SP

This is a number.

Double this = 2(3" per SP) = 6" per SP

Fluff-wise, RAI and RAW, I think this is the case.

You are doubling "special". You have no permission to double the *result* of substituting differing numbers into the term special

Neither RAW or RAI agree with you.

Why on earth not? Is there a rule that stipulates this? (Not being facetious - genuine question)

Although, jumping a step ahead, I don't think you can target the steam tank with spells - "Only spells with a given strength can damage steam tanks - all other effects are ignored."

doctorludo wrote:Although, jumping a step ahead, I don't think you can target the steam tank with spells - "Only spells with a given strength can damage steam tanks - all other effects are ignored."

The current Empire Errata document eliminates that exemption (along with making the STank T10).

Because you are not told you can double the "special" amount - just the movement rate. And the movement rate for a steam tank is not a number, therefore doubling it has no effect.

You are given permission to double M, not the special value that replaces M.

Nosferatu, I understand what you are saying. I just think that the onus is on you to prove your point.

Seriously, is there a rule that states you can't double a special value?

The rules of English and Mathematics?

I HAVE proven my point; prove that 2*Special has any meaning - remembering you have already performed what you have been given permission to do, which is double M. Double Special is still Special, as Special is not a number.

(in other words - doubling the movement value is not something you can do when you do not have a value to double in the first place; doubling "special" has no meaning linguistically or mathematically)

Well wrath and ruin from a dwarf anvil halfs movement value and in the errata it states that it effects steam tanks by making each sp used =1.5inch move.

So i cant see why this spell wouldnt work.

The rules of mathematics?

M = 3*SP
2M = 2(3*SP) = 6*SP

The rules of English?

"Double the movement value". The movement value is special, calculated as 3 times the number of steam points spent. In this case, therefore, special is a number, as we are given a clear way to calculate it. For a calculated number that is derived from a special rule, then double (special) = double (calculated number).

My question to you is this: Is there a rule or general principle that states that special values can't be modified? Because elsewhere, they can.

Please don't just say "you can't double a special value". I've shown that you can.

No, you have shown that you can substitute actual values in, rather than doing what you are told - to double the movement value. The movement "value" of a steam tank is special, which is not a value at all. So you cannot perform the doubling.

You have shown something you do not have permission to do, which is doubling the subsitution for the non value. Please show linguistically your permission to double the value that is not a value (hint: you cant, you can only show a substitution to create a value)

Yes, the errata for W&R allows it - therefore showing a change in the rules was required. It is however a specific change int he rules.

If you can half it why cant you double it?

Because the rule does not allow you to?

You have an errata that states, for W&R, this is what happens. You do not have permssion to then apply that *change in the rules* outside of the situation given. which is what you are trying to do.

The Errata doesnt say you cant double the movement.

Loggerheads again.

"Please show linguistically your permission to double the value that is not a value"

I don't need to. Because the value is a value, that being the point of most of my previous posts.

The point about W&R isn't an erratum. It's an FAQ, which uses the game rules exactly as I'm suggesting. It doesn't require a change in the rules, just a confirmation that the rules apply.

It doesnt need to: it needs to state you CAN double the movement.

The entire ruleset is based on permission; you have been given permission to halve the movement, you have not been given permission to change the rules to allow double the movement.

DL - your contention is that the FAQs dont change the rules? That is so hilariously incorrect....

"special" is not a value. You can create a value, by sub'ing in a rule for what "special" means, but then you are not doing what you are told - you are doubling something not the movement value, as the movement value is not actually a value in this case. (it is a variable which can be a value)

I get your points - doesnt alter that they arent correct.

nosferatu1001 wrote: DL - your contention is that the FAQs dont change the rules? That is so hilariously incorrect....

"The Errata corrects any mistakes in the book, while the Amendments bring the book up to date with the latest version of the rules. The Frequently Asked Questions (or ‘FAQ’) section answers commonly asked questions about the rules." That's form the front of the relevant document. I haven't come across a rule change in an FAQ, only clarifications of conflicting or unclear rules. When, for instance, GW wanted to change the rules for Kraggi/Thorek, this was an erratum/amendment. The GW answer to the W&R FAQ question can be calculated perfectly easily using the rules as written. The FAQ confirms this.

nosferatu1001 wrote:"special" is not a value. You can create a value, by sub'ing in a rule for what "special" means, but then you are not doing what you are told - you are doubling something not the movement value, as the movement value is not actually a value in this case. (it is a variable which can be a value)

You have actually contradicted yourself in your last sentence.

nosferatu1001 wrote:I get your points - doesnt alter that they arent correct.

?

CAN BE is not the same as IS. Not a contradiction. "special" is NOT a strict value. Doubling it has no meaning.

Yes, that may be what they state, however there are numerous examples (mainly 40k right now, but given some time i could come up with some for fantasy. Just not at 11pm) where they have used rules changes disguised as FAQs.

Erm nos, what level of mathematics are you applying to this.
Because for the purpoces of higher mathematics (as i learned in college just last year) the word special is given a formulted value (3*SP") in the army book, and as such makes that very substitution, you have been denouncing all this time, perfectly legal.

Except it isnt a value, it is a variable whcih can be a value. IS and CAN BE are two different concepts - one is fixed, the other isnt.

You are also not given permission to double the substituted value, just the value present under the "M", as that is what the BRB defines as the movement rate. Same as you cannot double a giants attacks.

Ure you could, lets look at this this way:
Special is an unidefined value.

In the stam tank case Special is given a value as a function of SP – Special=3*SP

Giants are different in that the value "special" for attacks is not given an exact definition but rather a very precise set of rules that do indeed make it impossible to change the values in any way.

Special can be a value, once you take other rules into account. Within the rule for the spell you dont have permission to perform the substitution.

Anyways, done here - this is one for the FAQs.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Anyways, done here - this is one for the FAQs.

QFT

Too bad it won't happen soon

Well given they got the second revision of FAQs out within 4 days of initial release, certainly there seems to be a change, fantasy at least, in FAQ production

nosferatu1001 wrote:Special can be a value, once you take other rules into account. Within the rule for the spell you dont have permission to perform the substitution.

Anyways, done here

Gwar!, is that you?

nosferatu1001 wrote:

- this is one for the FAQs.

Oops - nope!