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A strange situation arose in a game I was playing just yesterday and I was curious as to the thoughts of all the Dakkadakka experts on this problem!

The situation is this: Eldar Pathfinders were about to shoot at my Horrors, which contained the Changeling, he used his power to force the Ld test and they failed. Now I had to chose a unit for the Pathfinders to shoot and the Harlequins were the best bet.

My question is this: The Harlequins had the holofield that you have to test shooting against, but it specifically states enemy shooting, so does one of their own units forced to shoot at them count as enemy fire? Or as a friendly unit do they ignore this rule?

Thoughts anyone?

They are a friendly unit, so the quins field does nothing.

RaW the holofields do nothing. But if you ever deploy any models on the board at the start of the game you're not playing RaWhammer 40k, you're playing Warhammer 40k so yes you'd still have to test to see them and if not they could not be selected as target.

Theyre not Holofields, its Veil of Tears....

RAW and arguably RAI VoT does nothing. The psychic field obscures you from enemies, not your own army.

FlingitNow wrote:RaW the holofields do nothing. But if you ever deploy any models on the board at the start of the game you're not playing RaWhammer 40k, you're playing Warhammer 40k so yes you'd still have to test to see them and if not they could not be selected as target.

I like how you subtly imply that following the rules makes you a jerk.

If you are playing Warhammer 40k, you DON'T Test, because that is what the rules say. The rules say Enemy shooting. Is an enemy unit shooting at them? No. So they don't test.

Gwar! wrote:I like how you subtly imply that following the rules makes you a jerk.

Not subtle, repeated. But didn't you know that most people buy the rulebook for painting advice and suggestions for ways to penalize people they don't like via Comp scoring? The rules are simply suggestions that jerks take as. . .rules.

I like how you subtly imply that following the rules makes you a jerk.

No I didn't I implied willfully ignoring the rules to apply RaW made you a jerk...

FlingitNow wrote:No I didn't I implied willfully ignoring the rules to apply RaW made you a jerk...

Hover of that acronym, "RAW" for a sec.

Willfully ignoring the rules to apply the rules. . .

Willfully ignoring the rules to apply the rules. . .

RaW isn't the rules unless you're implying that GW employs the greatest legal minds in the world to perfectly translate the rules into the written form?

RaW is the Rules AS WRITTEN not THE RULES (or RaI as they are also known)out ranslating the text using literalism and is not a very good method for translating many of the rules for the game.

Lets not derail this thread with this old argument just PM if you want to tell me you think that GW writes the rules perfectly or that the rulebook designed the rules not GW. In either case I doubt you'll convince me but if you want to try I'll listen.

You were the person to derail the thread, everybody else was just replying to your statement that made no sense, as is the correct thing to do.

@OP you said the Changling forced an Ld test, do you mean your opponent opted to try and break the glamour and failed?

Also wouldn't the Changling need to test if he could see the Harlequins before he could select them as a suitable target for the pathfinders? VoT covers targetting and therefore even if the pathfinders by RAW ignore the VoT then the Changling is still choosing a target as an enemy model.

Just my 2 pence.

No, the changeling is not the unit attempting to target the harlies, the Eldar unit is.

Codex: Chaos Daemons, Page 54 -

If the test is failed, the unit must immediately fire all of its weapons (no holding back!) against a friendly unit, chosen by the Changling among any of the units he can see. If the Changling cannot see a second enemy unit, the enemy which failed the test will simply stand around confused as described above.

This to me says that it is the Changling that is chosing a target and must be able to see the unit. As an enemy he should still need to test whether he can see the Harlequins through the Veil of Tears, if he can't see then, as per his rules, the pathfinders do nothing.

Is he not still electing a target?

Foxfyre wrote:Codex: Chaos Daemons, Page 54 -

If the test is failed, the unit must immediately fire all of its weapons (no holding back!) against a friendly unit, chosen by the Changling among any of the units he can see. If the Changling cannot see a second enemy unit, the enemy which failed the test will simply stand around confused as described above.

This to me says that it is the Changling that is chosing a target and must be able to see the unit. As an enemy he should still need to test whether he can see the Harlequins through the Veil of Tears, if he can't see then, as per his rules, the pathfinders do nothing.

Is he not still electing a target?

He is, but IIRC, the Harlequin's rule refers when rolling to hit doesn't it? The Changeling's ability does not require a "to hit" roll, so as such the Harlequins would not get this extra protection.

Codex: Eldar, Page 49

Any enemy wishing to target the Shadowseer or the unit she is with must roll 2D6x2. This is their spotting distance in inches.

The Changling is still pointing and saying 'those are the Jedi you are looking for' so surely he must first make sure he can see what he's pointing at? :p

Touché, but your reasoning was incorrect in terms of the rule "Glamour of Tzeentch". The word Target does not appear in the paragraph of the rule.

Targeting is a very different thing from selecting. You "Target" an enemy unit for weapons fire yes - but consider other abilities. Does the Sanguinor "target" an enemy? No, the enemy is selected at the beginning of the game. The only stipulation for the Changling is Range and LOS.

To further refute your point, the Changling is not even targeting the Harlequins in your example - they are the target for the "friendly fire". I don't want to wade into the "should they count as an enemy debate", but as far as testing to see the Harelquins (i.e. from the changeling), thats an emphatic no on that one.

"a friendly unit, chosen by the Changling among any of the units he can see." is not the same as "a friendly unit, targeted by the Changling among any of the units he can see."

Words. They can make a difference.

+1 to Gwar

but if you cant see the unit how can you target them, or do anything to them for that matter? if the unit was behind cover, tanks, or some other LOS blocker, the changling cant use his ability. if the night fight rules are in effect, and the changling cant spot them becuase of this, then his rule has no effect. therefore, VoT would seem to me that the changling would have to be able to see (spot) the harlequins in order to make the pathfinders shoot at them. process imo should be:
pathfinders declare shots -> changling says "HAH! shoot those guys instead!" -> pathfinders attempt to break the effect, fail LD. -> changling decides target, picks harlequins, must roll to see them. if failed, pathfinders wont shoot at the harlequins. (measuring spotting distance from changling, not harlequins)

the biggest point i have to make here is the wording of VoT "any unit wishing to target...must roll 2d6x2 for spotting distance" meaning to me...if you dont see them you cant see them and cant do anything. changlings ability clearly requires him to "see" the unit he wants to recieve the friendly fire.

the easy way to decide this would be night fighting. does the changling have to roll for night fight to use his ability or not? i would assume so.. and if thats the case then VoT should work the same way.

I would dispute that the changeling would need to roll to see. The night fight rules clearly state that visibility rolls are made when checking for ranged attacks. I don't think the changeling's ability would fall into this category. Think about it, the changeling does not roll any dice - AT ALL during the execution of its ability.

-Guardians take LD test
-They then either roll to see/or don't depending on how you play it
-If there is an LOS from the changling to the harlequins and it's within 24 inches, it becomes a target
-The guardians open fire on the harlequins

Personally, I agree that hardcore RAW says that they VoT would not apply. However, I think this is colloquially known as a "dick move" and RAI would imply that to be shot at with a shooting attack the VoT test must be passed.

Why would it be a dick move? If anyone is being targetted, it's the guardian squad, as that is who the changeling is targetting with it's ability. The changeling does has to have LOS and be in range. I don't have my BRB with me, but do the night fighting rolls say that you can't draw LOS to a target if you fail your night-sight test? I don't believe they do.

Also bear in mind that i've stayed clear of the "do the harlequins get their ability vs their own unit" debate, i'm merely stating that the changeling would not need to test to use it's ability. Dont accuse me of making a "dick move" when I merely state the rules.

Leonus wrote:Personally, I agree that hardcore RAW says that they VoT would not apply. However, I think this is colloquially known as a "dick move" and RAI would imply that to be shot at with a shooting attack the VoT test must be passed.

Not at all, it is called "applying the rules as written and intended" - it is not an ambiguous rules situation.

You only use night fight OR VoT when you are targetting a unit with ranged attacks. The changelings ability is NOT a ranged attack (in anyway, shape or form) and so this does not apply.

liam0404 wrote:Why would it be a dick move? If anyone is being targetted, it's the guardian squad, as that is who the changeling is targetting with it's ability. The changeling does has to have LOS and be in range. I don't have my BRB with me, but do the night fighting rolls say that you can't draw LOS to a target if you fail your night-sight test? I don't believe they do.

Also bear in mind that i've stayed clear of the "do the harlequins get their ability vs their own unit" debate, i'm merely stating that the changeling would not need to test to use it's ability. Dont accuse me of making a "dick move" when I merely state the rules

Like I said, I agree that the changeling won't need to make any extra tests.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Leonus wrote:Personally, I agree that hardcore RAW says that they VoT would not apply. However, I think this is colloquially known as a "dick move" and RAI would imply that to be shot at with a shooting attack the VoT test must be passed.

Not at all, it is called "applying the rules as written and intended" - it is not an ambiguous rules situation.

You only use night fight OR VoT when you are targetting a unit with ranged attacks. The changelings ability is NOT a ranged attack (in anyway, shape or form) and so this does not apply.

It wouldn't be the changeling making the test, but the pathfinders. THEY are making a shooting attack against their own units who have VoT. In my eyes, the RAI is that the VoT would work against anything making a shooting attack against them, which the pathfinders would be doing after the changeling's shenanigans are successful.

Except it specifies ENEMY units. If you suddenly designate the pathfinders as enemy units the changelings power no longer works at all.

RAW the pathfinders do not makea test as they are not an enemy unit and are never considered as such. RAI the pathfinders do not make a test as the farseer at the back has provided everyone with detailed friendly troop movements. Which is why claiming to have any clue on "RAI" is silly....

nosferatu1001 wrote:Except it specifies ENEMY units. If you suddenly designate the pathfinders as enemy units the changelings power no longer works at all.

RAW the pathfinders do not makea test as they are not an enemy unit and are never considered as such. RAI the pathfinders do not make a test as the farseer at the back has provided everyone with detailed friendly troop movements. Which is why claiming to have any clue on "RAI" is silly....

The changeling's power works perfectly well against anything that doesn't have a special ability that hinders units that are shooting at it.

Are you implying that when this rule was written, they specifically wanted to make sure that the unit could still be targeted by friendly fire? OR perhaps they had intended for things trying to shoot at them to have to make a test first? I'm afraid it seems our views on what RAI actually means are different.

The ability is only hindered if it affects friendly units shooting at you - which would be an odd occurence, dont you think?

I think they specifically meant for the changeling to be able to pick a unit for you to fire at, and unless that unit has a special protection from friendly fire (easily done, just remove the word "enemy" from the VoT rules) they will get shot. Sorry, but that is how the rules actually work.

"RAI" is a hideous term which essentially means "I dont like what the rule says because of [insert fluff justification here], so here is what we should play instead" - the trouble is wghat people think is "RAI" can differ wildly, and the justification from fluff can, with a 99.9% probability, be used the other way round (assuming two interpretations, for simplicity). Hence, when a rule is as unambiguous as this one is using RAW makes a load more sense, common or otherwise.

Leonus is basically, at this point, arguing for house rules.

If the rules explicitly state that the VoT only affects *enemy* units, and they're being fired upon by a *friendly* unit, VoT does not apply.

If the rules explicitly state that the enemy unit chosen by the Daemons player to be the friendly shooting unit's target need only be in the Changeling's line of sight (it does), then the Changeling is not targeting that unit and does not have to pass a VoT test himself.

Changeling uses Glamour of Tzeentch, picks Pathfinders, Pathfinders are found to be in range (24"), Pathfinders choose to try to shoot, Pathfinders fail leadership test, Daemon player picks Harlies, Pathfinder shoot everything they've got at the Harlies, Pathfinders are a *friendly* unit, so no VoT test is taken.

That's it, RAW.

And RAW is what YMDC is here to discuss. Not RAI, or house rules.

SaintHazard wrote:
And RAW is what YMDC is here to discuss. Not RAI, or house rules.

YMDC is also about how you would play it (making da call).

VoT doesn't mention affecting friendly visibility becuase it was written in 2006 when there was no mechanism for units to be caused to shot at other friendly units. Fast forward to 2008 and we get Glamour of Tzeentch that introduces this ability. I don't believe for a minute that GW knew in 2006 what rules changes would come about in 2008 and that the wording in the eldar codex of 2006 deliberately excludes friendly fire. I would play it that somebody takes a test to see the harlies. Either the changeling or the unit affected by the glamour should check to see if they can see the harlies.

The hardcore RAW arguments that take place here in YMDC are useful and instructive, but they are hardly the be all of how the game should be played. GW has shown time after time that they don't write the rules precisely and consistently enough for a strict RAW standard to be universally applied. RAW the Doom of Malanatai's spirt leech affects units in transports. GW says no. RAW shield of sanguinius doesn't affect vehicles. GW says it does. RAW the swarmlord can't join tyrant guard. GW says he can etc etc.