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Title really says it all. What do you think of our standard issue weapon?

I personally feel they are the backbone of any thing anti-infantry.

Now I want Dakka's opinion.

I used to be indifferent to bolt rifles until I read about how the Sisters of Battle revere it, the 'Holy Bolter', as a symbol of their service to the Emperor. Kind of like how a Samurai viewed his swords I guess. Rapid fire is really fun!

And watching all those Soulstorm clips on YouTube, along with the Ultramarine movie trailer sure makes bolters look good

--- Be well, be blessed!
------- Frankie

Once upon a time I started a Chaos marine army. 17/18 games the dice gods decided to disfavor my Horde's unholy armament and made their bolters as weak as lasguns. *rocking in fetal position* So. Many. Threes and twos ;_;

I have had that happen to me as well. Tac squad fires, every shot hits, then every shot fails to wound...

WHY DICE GODS? WHY DO YOU TEASE ME SO?!

I dislike bolters, mainly because I am a greenkskin, as bulk-infantry-guns they are very good, and I also like avenger shuricataputs.

Nasty nasty 2 shot-weapons...

Avenger shuricats are very nasty. Especially with guide,doom, and bladestorm, and then those DA charge you....

Took out my friends entire 15 man berserker squad!

Bolters are a great weapon, but I prefer the Shuriken Catapult, purely because you can assault after you have shot

I like bolters, but they're certainly nothing spectacular.

Um...
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/307032.page

As for the poll, they are there, but they are good enough as ->standard<- weapons.

I run Bikers so mass TL bolters that are effective on the move and get in quick = torrent of fire. So, I like them but don't expect too much out of them.

Seen that thread. Just kinda wanted a poll.

I personally hate the bolter however it is probably the fact that I have always played orks and now that I am giving space marines a whirl I can't get used to rapid fire, it's sorta annoying.

Often people underestimate the power of a Bolter salvo and think the only danger are the heavy and special weapons.

Not much better than wiping a squad of the table with a good bolter salvo.

Dark Scipio wrote:Often people underestimate the power of a Bolter salvo and think the only danger are the heavy and special weapons.

Not much better than wiping a squad of the table with a good bolter salvo.

I find that too.

Not that specials or heavies are weak, just that people put far too much trust into them.

only special weapons count in this game right now. take as few bolters as possible.
AF

AbaddonFidelis's nonsense aside, I'm a big fan of bolters - as far as standard infantry weapons go, they're one of the better options out there. Not quite the punch of a good pulse rifle, though. Pulse rifles will always have my vote for "best infantry weapon ever."

AbaddonFidelis wrote:only special weapons count in this game right now. take as few bolters as possible.
AF

This guy has no clue what he's talking about.

Bolter shock is still a very powerful tool, especially against anyone with a 5+ or lower save. And it's ESPECIALLY powerful against terminators and other low wound count units.

Dark Scipio wrote:Often people underestimate the power of a Bolter salvo and think the only danger are the heavy and special weapons.

Not much better than wiping a squad of the table with a good bolter salvo.

The main problem with this idea of thinking is if you are in range to do real damage with a bolter salvo then you need to have another unit that can charge the unit you are shooting at incase your salvo does not do enough damage, because if you fail to kill them they are charging your tac squad next turn which means bye bye tac squad.

sigh..... 4++ cover..... Melissa.
"Bolters are powerful against terminators."
ok whatever.
AF

AbaddonFidelis wrote:4++ cover

Your opponent cannot always claim a 4+ cover save to begin with. Orks especially, with large Boyz squads, usually rely upon the 5+ saves of their KFFs.

And for terminators? A squad firing its bolters will cause a lot of wounds. And this means the terminators are forced to make a lot of saves. This means the terminators are liable to fail a lot of saves.

Do not underestimate the complex tactical doctrine of "more dakka".

AbaddonFidelis wrote:sigh..... 4++ cover..... Melissa.
"Bolters are powerful against terminators."
ok whatever.
AF

They are.

To say that they aren't is to ignore the fact that 1) most massed infantry weapons are S3. S4 infantry weapons are typically provided to models that a) can't shoot worth a damn or b) come in small numbers. This gives me a 50% chance to wound a T4 model like a Terminator. When you have a unit of 5 T4 models, regardless of their armor save, you need to be wounding them to even force them to worry about using that armor save. Bolters are one of the only instances where you'll be able to pop 20 BS4 S4 shots off at a single target, giving you a decent chance of wounding T4 models. Now, when these T4 models only have one wound, like Terminators, the only advantage they have is that 2+ armor save... and if you've ever rolled dice before (sometimes I can't help but think you don't actually play the game, so I don't think you have) you know that you're going to fail some of those 2+ armor saves.

In conclusion, bolters are such that they allow a mass of fire that's guaranteed to wound the target enough times that they'll end up failing even the toughest armor saves.

Is plasma better for dealing with Terminators? Yes. Is there a single squad in the game that has the ability to loose 20 plasma shots at 5 Terminators?

Well, Leman Russ Executioners, effectively...

But otherwise, no.

So yes, bolters, while they're not Terminator autokillers, in large numbers are effective against them.

Besides, if you want to assault you fire the bolt pistols. You must sacrifice something to assault. Marines are not Orks, who don't even bother to aim to begin with, and they aren't Eldar, who are highly maneuverable yet rather fragile. Marines are Marines. They take time to aim, and make their shots count.

IF you want the S4 Assault 2 shoota, you're gonna have to take the BS2 along with it. I doubt that, in the hands of Marines who actually take time to aim, it would still be Assault 2.

I always thought of the lasgun as the 'standard' weapon, and the bolter as a holy relic honor weapon to the marines and the inquisitorial armies. The only reason they seem 'standard' is because there are so many MEQs and SM variants played.

Bolters are sacred, evidently. This doesn't make them actually good I would far prefer a Tau pulse rifle or an Avenger Catapult. They definitely have some punch but they are far from the best.

Melissia wrote:Your opponent cannot always claim a 4+ cover save to begin with. Orks especially, with large Boyz squads, usually rely upon the 5+ saves of their KFFs.

And for terminators? A squad firing its bolters will cause a lot of wounds. And this means the terminators are forced to make a lot of saves. This means the terminators are liable to fail a lot of saves.

Yes. the dumb opponents cant claim the cover save. Only the smart ones can.
A full strength squad rapid firing bolters will inflict just over 1 wound. do the math.
AF

Mathhammer isn't everything.

Give a terminator a lot of chances to fail his save, and he will fail his save.

Guys, we all know AF well enough.
Lets ignore him and move on...I'm pretty sick of all this and was hoping my linky would KILL this before he showed up.

Bolters en mass do stuff.
Special weapons are nice, but the balance is they are not everywhere and cost more than the 'free' bolters.

Bolters are standard weapons (better compared to other standard weapons) and are not supposed to meet a crazy high expectation that others may have.

One may not like them, but seriously... would you rather have lasguns, ceteris paribus?

PS: he has a good number of people on his ignore list, so don't be surprised if he doesn't respond to some well thought out responces to his posts. <--me included.

We all know how fickle dice are. I have had many a termie squad get decimated by failing 3 out of 4 armor saves.

And you really cannot always claim cover... you are going to have to move sometime.

EDIT: Damn, ninja'd by sanctjud...

Also, I was hoping to avoid this.

xxBlazinGhostxx wrote:We all know how fickle dice are. I have had many a termie squad get decimated by failing 3 out of 4 armor saves.

And you really cannot always claim cover... you are going to have to move sometime.

EDIT: Damn, ninja'd by sanctjud...

Also, I was hoping to avoid this.

Well, the rhino can move with the squad... or dread, or other screening unit.
Cover saves are not only everywhere, they are quite easy to CREATE.

But the issue is, rate of fire is a means of winning... it has been so since the dawn of time IMO.

Melissia wrote:Mathhammer isn't everything. Give a terminator a lot of chances to fail his save, and he will fail his save.

1. can you explain to me why the math is so unimportant here? I remember someone putting alot of stock in it on another thread (the math backed me there too, but whatever)
2. yes its possible that the terminators will fail more saves than the math would suggest. It's also possible that jerry garcia will rise from the dead and play one last farewell concert for all his fans before acending to heaven. What we're interested in here is the *probable* not the *possible.*
AF

If you run Gunline Wolve like I do at time they are very Dakka. That and a Pair of Plasma Guns are murder on most list including Nids and MEQs.
My Basic Tactic is let them get within 12" of my "Gunline" and Rapid Fire and during the Assault Phase Pop the Wolf Standard [wich will not Activate untill the next Assualt Phase]. Then quoting the phrase made famos by Joe Swanson "BRING IT ON!" If they assalt my I get to re-roll my "1s" during my Counter-Attack or they don't Charge me and one more turn of Rapid Fire.

Yes I love the Bolter Gunline.

I think they're good for what they are as well.

Sure the Avenger Cat may be a little better, but an 18 inch range without heavy weapons accompanying the squad makes a DA unit slightly less effective on it's own than a Tac-Marine squad.