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If you want to continue the witch hunter discussion go to the witch hunter thread instead of attempting to bring it up elsewhere. I already answered your "point" there, as did half a dozen other people. If you really wished to drop that thread's discussion like you claimed then you should drop it yes?

Yes.

Now, back on topic shall we? Nevermind that you have shown what appears to be only a very poor understanding of statistics to begin with, it is not an exact science. Statistics is difficult to use properly, and easy to misuse and abuse. People constantly attempt to misuse it for their own personal gain-- especially in politics and internet discussions.

What matters about bolter shock, and other "give lots of wounds" tactics like lasgun spam and boyz spam, isn't that each individual shot goes through and kills someone, but that you have so many shots that you cause enough wounds that they'll fail a lot of them. This is something that has been proven time and time again in tournaments.

It goes far beyond the simple math that you're attempting into something we like to call "real world experience". What tactics work often goes against what someone who uses pure mathhammer would think of. Mathhammer does not take into account every single variable.

Anpu42 wrote:

Yes I love the Bolter Gunline.

QFT, moar dakka is moar dakka, it is the 1st law of 40k.

[edit: delete, oops]

The otherthing is rember a Bolter is S4 and a good number of the amries out there are T3, that is wounding on a 3+.
It will also wound up to a T7, there are not many T8 stuff out there.
If you can get a flank you can glance most transports, Skimmers and some Armor from the rear.

Melissia wrote:If you want to continue the witch hunter discussion go to the goddamned witch hunter thread instead of attempting to bring it up elsewhere. I already answered your so-called point there, as did half a dozen other people. If you really wished to drop that thread's discussion like you claimed then you should drop it yes?

The question was rhetorical. The answer is yes.

Now, back on topic shall we? Nevermind that you have shown a very poor understanding of statistics to begin with, it is not an exact science. Statistics is difficult to use properly, and easy to misuse and abuse. People constantly attempt to misuse it for their own personal gain-- especially in politics and internet discussions.

What matters about bolter shock, and other "give lots of wounds" tactics like lasgun spam and boyz spam, isn't that each individual shot goes through and kills someone, but that you have so many shots that you cause enough wounds that they'll fail a lot of them. This is something that has been proven time and time again in tournaments.

It goes far beyond the simple math that you're attempting into something we like to call "real world experience".

1. I dont want to continue the witch hunter conversation. I want you to explain to me why the math was important over there and can be ignored over here.
2. we're not talking about politics, we're talking about your assertion - which is at root a mathematical statement of fact that rapid firing tacticals will drop "alot" of terminators. Is 1 alot?
3. If you're going to cherry pick your math examples, saying it matters here and it doesnt matter over there, then do us a favor and leave it out ok? Math doesnt have a magic switch that works when you want it to and stops working when you dont.
4. yes in sufficient numbers weight of fire can kill almost anything. What I would assert is that in a marine army it is very difficult to get weight of fire to kill, say, terminators. If I need 10 rapid firing marines to drop 1, then I need 50 to drop a squad of 5. Is that a realistic target for list building and in-game tactical decisions?
5. I too have real world experience. Why is yours more valuable than mine?
AF

@Anpu42:

You post reminds me of something AF said a while back:

Might I suggest everyone to this message:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/308295.page#1794313

If you do not want to continue that conversation, then shut your face and do not continue that conversation. Do not attempt to bring up past threads unless you want to actually talk about those subjects. I am done with this one.

Regardless, bolters are great. Hell, if lasgun spam can do it (BS3 S3 does not lead to nearly as many wounds), then certainly bolter spam can.

As an aside two rapid firing plasmaguns do 1.48 wounds as opposed to the 10 bolters 1.1 The difference isnt as large as I might have thought but they remain the more effective weapon, each 1 of them being worth about 7 bolters for this purpose. Thats my point. specials are where its at.

Well, then those 7 bolters just about double your wound output.

4. yes in sufficient numbers weight of fire can kill almost anything. What I would assert is that in a marine army it is very difficult to get weight of fire to kill, say, terminators. If I need 10 rapid firing marines to drop 1, then I need 50 to drop a squad of 5. Is that a realistic target for list building and in-game tactical decisions?

Because the bolters are there as supporting weaponry to the special weapons everybody loves.

5. I too have real world experience. Why is yours more valuable than mine?

Because you pass off yours as if it's the only way and disregard others...and then we are treating each other that way and we get these mosh pits that always end OT or with a modhammer.

Seriously, he's ingnored a handful or more people and he's still having the same issues, I think it's time for him to see that it may not be completely everybody else who has issue.

Ahh, screw it, I'm not even supposed to be addressing this point.

Sanctjud wrote:@Anpu42:

You post reminds me of something AF said a while back:

Might I suggest everyone to this message:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/308295.page#1794313

You mean he's been an idiot for at least a month?!

SHOCK AND DISMAY.

xxBlazinGhostxx wrote:Well, then those 7 bolters just about double your wound output.

I dont understand....

xxBlazinGhostxx wrote:Well, then those 7 bolters just about double your wound output.

Triple, actually, but you'll never get him to admit that.

The emphasis on mechanization (or, really, movement) has made them less useful to me. I'm either moving towards an objective full-speed (no shooting), I'm moving half speed (shooting special weapons), or I'm disembarking and charging (shooting bolt pistols). It's not often that I'm standing still, on foot, not in charging range, and where I want to be so that I can take that nice 12+" bolter shot.

It would be a huge boon to foot-slogging armies if they could take a 24" shot with rapid-fire guns after moving, and/or rapid-fire then charge but lose the bonus attack.

I assume you are talking about unsaved wounds correct?

If yes, then that the bolters took down 1 full termie and the plasma guns killed one full termie.

So 1+1 makes 2 dead termies.

Melissia wrote:If you do not want to continue that conversation, then shut your face and do not continue that conversation. Do not attempt to bring up past threads unless you want to actually talk about those subjects. I am done with this one.

Regardless, bolters are great. Hell, if lasgun spam can do it (BS3 S3 does not lead to nearly as many wounds), then certainly bolter spam can.

you can spam about 3 lasguns for every 1 bolter, and the lasguns have a higher rate of fire. That's why lasgun spam tends to work and bolter spam tends not to.
AF

I like the whole Bolter Family
Bolt Pistol: 12" Assualt Weapon. I have had a pack of Blood Claws Vaporise a Harliquin Troop in Cover in one Turn.

Bolt Gun: You know my Opion of Gunlines

Storm Bolter: I wish I could get more, range 24 Double Tap

Combi-Weapons: Great for Termies, they become 12" Storm Bolters with a suprize. I can't tell you about Sturnguard usage, I just started to get into them.

Do you really want Guard to be able to FRFSRF and then charge, erwos?

SaintHazard wrote:

xxBlazinGhostxx wrote:Well, then those 7 bolters just about double your wound output.

Triple, actually, but you'll never get him to admit that.

I always round down for mathhammer when it comes to wounds inflicted, always gives me the best possible way it could play out for the opponent if everything went avg.

That makes sense right?

What xxBlazinGhostxx meant (guessing)...relates to my point of bolters being supporting weaponry.

Melissia wrote:Do you really want Guard to be able to FRFSRF and then charge, erwos?

Sure! Might make a massed IG charge actually accomplish something, although I doubt it changes the numbers _that_ much. They're still just S3 attacks, after all.

Yup, they are, Abbadon admits this, but they are better then he says they are.

xxBlazinGhostxx wrote:I assume you are talking about unsaved wounds correct?

If yes, then that the bolters took down 1 full termie and the plasma guns killed one full termie.

So 1+1 makes 2 dead termies.

ummm.... yes for this purpose 7 bolters or 1 plasmagun, they're about the same. If you have a squad of rapid firing guys with plasmaguns then you've got 2-3 dead terminators (assuming no cover no storm shields).
The two plasmaguns will do just over half of that damage.

All I'm really saying here is that if you take fewer bolterguns and more specials you'll get a more effective firebase, and that its difficult to bring enough bolters to get a good job done with weight of fire. That's not really controversial is it? Outside of my fan club I mean.
AF

~not worth it~

xxBlazinGhostxx wrote:

SaintHazard wrote:

xxBlazinGhostxx wrote:Well, then those 7 bolters just about double your wound output.

Triple, actually, but you'll never get him to admit that.

I always round down for mathhammer when it comes to wounds inflicted, always gives me the best possible way it could play out for the opponent if everything went avg.

That makes sense right?

Makes sense to me. Hammer out the mathhammer and leave yourself a safety buffer. Limits your options versus playing the numbers closer to the chest, but a margin of error is a safeguard. I do the same thing, since I tend to gravitate towards the more conservative option in most cases.

Sanctjud wrote:What xxBlazinGhostxx meant (guessing)...relates to my point of bolters being supporting weaponry.

That thought prosses is a good one. Remeber the German buit thier Squads around the MG 34/42 and suported them with a 5 shot Bolt Action Rifle. That was a very effective Tactic. With my DIY Marines I build the Squad around a Heavy Bolter and give them a Plasma Gun & Plasma Pistol for light Anti-Armor Work. I usally break them into Combat Squads with the two Plasmas in one and the other with the Heavy Bolter to set up Kill-Zones. The Bolt Guns are there for the HB, but thier Firepower is nothing to ignor.
At 12": 8x S4 Attacks and 3 S5 Attacks
At 24": 4x S4 Attacks and 3 S5 Attacks
At the very least the enemy usally moves to cover witch slows him down.

Yeah but I think it all kind of evens out with the 'big' small arms weapons. Bolters come with SM statlines and armor, Pulse Rifles come with a better gun but a crappy troop shooting it, Shuriken Catapults are Assaulty, well shot, but with less range and less resilience than a SM.

The reason Avengers don't have a heavy weapon is that it is not their role. Nearly everything in an Eldar army just focuses on its own task. You have dedicated heavy weapons and tank poppers from other units, almost no multitasking.

In some ways, sticking a heavy weapon in a squad hampers you because it makes you have to make that tough decision of popping off a missile at the tank and wasting all your bolter fire on it, or wasting the missile to take out a couple of grots in a blast so the bolter guys can shoot at something they can actually hurt, or moving out of harm's way versus still getting off that missile that will inevitably miss, while your guys stay rigid just to let him take his shot. None of these is a good decision to force yourself into having to make.

I think we're all saying the same thing here, excepting the nonsense coming out of AF's face hole.

Can we agree that bolters kick ass, and continue to extoll their endless joyous benefits, instead of hanging on minor out-of-context statistics?

My holy bolter will cleanse the Imperium of it's foes, be it daemonic, foreign, or heretical, all shall fall before me.

Respect and love thy bolter, and thou shall be unstoppable.

So we can stop AF!

All of the sudden there's ten reports. Although I'd prefer to just suspend everyone who posting anything on this thread I'm trying to eat my lunch so will just close it instead.