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So after investing in points for magic for 'Ard Boyz and being thoroughly disappointed, I have been wondering - is it viable to go without any magic at all?

It just seems suicidal to me. An undead player that can freely raise up units, or anyone freely able to let rip with Miasma to lower initiative followed by purple sun or pit of shades...

But then I think how "convenient" it would be that during my turn, all my power dice can be used to dispel remains in play spells that would be annoying without losing the effectiveness of the wizards I've spent so many points on - which is what tends to happen, if my opponent gets the upper hand in magic.

Anyone had any experience with this? Specifically with Warriors of Chaos?

having no magic is certaintly viable.

you can still dispell, you just won't have a wizard level to add to the attempt and you can use power dice in your own turn freely to get rid of enemy RiP spells.

against dwarves it is very good as they are constantly purchasing anti-magic runes which will be totally useless against magic free armies.



i asume when you mean WoC you have an all Khorne army in mind?

go for it, make sure to bring magic resistance along as it's pure gold in this edition.

Nah, not all khorne. Only as much as is necessary I think. I'll play around with it... just very disappointed with the showing I had with magic in general, this time around.

Armies with lots of (cheap) wizards got nerfed as they don't have as many dice to go around now.

my Ogres at low points are forced to go magic free as we simply can't afford casters under 1k points.

The way I see it, you're going to get to stop one or maybe two spells with your dispel dice, then the enemy's level four caster is going to mangle you with magic. Unless you have a couple of wizard assassination methods (a fast-moving hero or monster or the like), not countering him sufficiently is going to hurt. Now that most magic ignores combat status (IE buffs/debuffs), rushing into combat is little protection anymore.

Having said that, the 300+ points not spent on a big bad wizard goes a long way to counteracting the magic casualties...

And remember, now that much of the magic is being done by 1 level 4 wizard, a well-timed feedback scroll can be crippling.

After playing magic and non magic armies I have come to this conclusion.

You can be effective with a non magic list, however in anything over 2000 points you need at least a lvl 2 to dispell (level 4 is better). My level 3 went down in a 2500 point game and his level 4 sorc stomped all over me as any spell he cast was effectively like 1 dice more powerfull because of the wizard level.

If they have a level 4 and you dont have anything, you will need to throw AT LEAST one more dice then them to make up for the difference.

ShivanAngel wrote:After playing magic and non magic armies I have come to this conclusion.

You can be effective with a non magic list, however in anything over 2000 points you need at least a lvl 2 to dispell (level 4 is better). My level 3 went down in a 2500 point game and his level 4 sorc stomped all over me as any spell he cast was effectively like 1 dice more powerfull because of the wizard level.

If they have a level 4 and you dont have anything, you will need to throw AT LEAST one more dice then them to make up for the difference.

I agree completely. The non magic lists suffer at higher points levels. Especially when the buffs/debuffs hit the table. You can dispel them in your own phase but then they get put back on in most cases. I played a game against a non magic WoC list and i wound up getting a minor victory simply because when he hit my lines my buffs/debuffs allowed me to win combat in most cases. The only reason I didn't do better imo was that i had only 3 and 4 power dice on turns 1 and 2, i had 11 on turn three which helped me out alot.

The other main reason is *one* single spell can often do MORE damage than an entire game worth of attacks from most lords. Any of the template spells are great as are buffs that make your guys better

Lets assume you have a fighter with 4 attacks at Strength 6 due to a great weapon.. (4 is pretty standard for a lot of lords and so is that strength). IF you are in combat from TURN 1 until turn 6 you have 12 rounds of combat. You can kill a MAXIMUM of 48 enemy models, and most likely you'll kill around 23 (one round of challenges negating a few wounds)

My level 4 wizard could do 23 kills per turn potentially Im sure with any template spell vs a block of troops. Thats just in a single turn with a single spell. I see no reason to take a CC lord OVER a magic lord (Thats not to say you shouldnt take both if you can). Only real benefit of CC characters is the combat result if youre facing an army that might actually break.. and they do stack better (2 level 4 wizards is fairly pointless)

Also fighter characters scale drastically better with armies that have 1+ save magic items or can reach 1+ easily (chaos, empire, dwarves)..

Can't completely generalize, but more often than not, I think taking lvl.0 magic would be a bad idea in anything at least 2k for sure.

With a lvl.0 vs. an enemy who is lvl.4 (or with extra items and powers basically lvl.5 or 6-ish.) his magic will likely be too much of a force multiplier to deal with if he knows how to play.

Consider spells such as:
Okkam's Razor - turns even an entire unit of basic troopers into S7-S9 monsters (capable of killing a lord with a 1+ armor save easily.)
Flesh to Stone - gives an entire unit +4 toughness. Very few magic items will let your no-magic army beat up units of entirely T7-T8 enemies you need 6s to wound.
Purple Sun - huge tornado rushing into your army that can tear it apart for multiple turns because there's a good chance your dispel fails.
Fate of Bjuna - 2d6 minus toughness hits that wound on 2+ with no armor saves and stupidity if you survive. He can march his squad 8-12" then cast it 12" and kill your general or BSB instantly. (On turn 1 or 2 he can long range kill your BSB, then turn 3 or 4 close range kill your general. Earned his cost back and his BSB will be unhurt so his line is sturdier.)

I think you'd need a special gimmick army to justify zero magic. 1. Such as a ton of super combat units which also move very fast (only way to shorten the time he can magic up.)
2. Or a ton of artillery. Like 6-10 pieces. Then you can possibly kill his mage since half his spells are buffs or close range things.
3. Some super cost-effective spam of so many troopers that even if the enemy gets buffed, you still have 2 more squads charge him in the flanks and possibly break him with SCR. If he can keep enough distance between you and use terrain so you can't flank him or things, magic will likely win.
4. Some special anti-magic stuff. Like Ring of Hotek for dark elves causing extra miscasts. This kinda stuff is often rare and doesn't work against all spells, whereas a lvl.4 wizard defends against pretty much all.

Kirasu wrote:The other main reason is *one* single spell can often do MORE damage than an entire game worth of attacks from most lords. Any of the template spells are great as are buffs that make your guys better

hehe I kind of agree, but against Archaon in my second Ard Boyz game he easily killed more rats then any wizards..... Not hard when your making 10 Str6 attacks a turn...

ShivanAngel wrote:

Kirasu wrote:The other main reason is *one* single spell can often do MORE damage than an entire game worth of attacks from most lords. Any of the template spells are great as are buffs that make your guys better

hehe I kind of agree, but against Archaon in my second Ard Boyz game he easily killed more rats then any wizards..... Not hard when your making 10 Str6 attacks a turn...

Well, he costs 685 points so it'd need to be at least a 2750 point game, plus he costs 685 points.

He only has 5 attacks unless he activates kill-himself mode. 10 attacks and hitting himself on rolls of 1 means he has a 28% chance of wounding himself every fight with it unleashed. Each wound on him is worth like 171 points.

In a 2750 point game, you should have room for counters to deal with him. He costs as much as like 6-8 cannons and the cannons are scarier.

in my opinion

8th will make people take fewer more powerful wizards and more less powerful CC charactors.

this is because having more wizards doesn't mean more spells.

moving the army composition to a percentage system means that you can have 4-6 heros in a 2k game depending on how much you spend on each one. empire could have 5 Captains with full magic item allowance in addition to a General and a Wizard lord.

IMO: the optimim army Comp would be a CC monster for your general(Lord level), a BSB, a couple of cc heros to back up the general, a Lvl4 mage and 1-2 lvl2 mages.

ShivanAngel wrote:After playing magic and non magic armies I have come to this conclusion.

You can be effective with a non magic list, however in anything over 2000 points you need at least a lvl 2 to dispell (level 4 is better). My level 3 went down in a 2500 point game and his level 4 sorc stomped all over me as any spell he cast was effectively like 1 dice more powerfull because of the wizard level.

If they have a level 4 and you dont have anything, you will need to throw AT LEAST one more dice then them to make up for the difference.

Couldn't agree more. Dice attrition means you need even just a level 2 wizard with a dispel or feedback scroll for insurance.

In defense of the close-combat lord level character, it's not so much about doing more wounds or not, it's about the toolbox of options they provide in close combat. Sure, wizards can help you win combat with buffs and hexes, but lord level fighters can tie up monsters, give you extra CR, provide leadership, and not die. Often they do this at a cheaper price than a Lord level caster.

especially now that combat is won or lost on kills alone.

I think a lvl4 caster is almost necessary for me for the +4 to dispel and cast. You can play without one but your just making it harder on your self. That +4 is much better then throwing an extra die every attempt to dispel or cast.

Id love to see someone using no wizards vs my lizardmen .. I basically have +2 dice vs them

Fighty lord means nothing when you got -d3 toughness and -d3 strength.. and/or -d3 WS.. or Im Strength 8-9. No normal character can equal the damage buffs can do from a single wizard

Grey Templar wrote:especially now that combat is won or lost on kills alone.

What? I haven't found this to be true at all. Some combats go that way, sure, but I'm still winning combats with a fully ranked unit, full command unit into the enemy flank...

so there are 5 things which add to combat res.

Musicians

Banners

Charging

elevation if you charged down hill.

and kills


the thing is, musicians, banners, and charging can give you a max of +4 combat res.

when there is an excess of 20-30 attacks coming down on you that +4 doesn't come into play that much.


especially if you are fighting a monster or Monsterous infantry with your infantry horde. 6 Monsterous infantry will have 18+ normal attacks in addition to 6 impact and stomp attacks.

against them you will have a Maximum(assuming 2 attacks from the front rank) of 40 attacks. their attacks will likely be hitting on 4s and wounding on 3s. you will likely be hitting on 3s and wounding on 5s.

they will have 3-4 kills from Impact and stomp + 8 from normal attacks so 11-12 kills.

you will have 26 hits out of 40. and about 8 wounds. most MI have at least 3 wounds and he can stack some on the champ. so IF you are lucky you will kill 2.


this is discounting whether you are going first, you don't take a fear test, they get full attacks.



my point being that kills are what counts.


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Red_Zeke wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:especially now that combat is won or lost on kills alone.

What? I haven't found this to be true at all. Some combats go that way, sure, but I'm still winning combats with a fully ranked unit, full command unit into the enemy flank...

you are winning because you are charging 20+ attacks into 5-7 attacks.

i doubt it has ANY thing to do with ranks(other then the supporting attacks you get and they don't)

No. I'm talking about Dwarf warriors w/hand weapon shield, and sometimes longbeards. So I'm swinging a lot of attacks, but they're at strength 3 or 4. It has a lot to do with ranks.

A ranked unit in the flank or rear (which you haven't mentioned) brings a pretty huge swing- +1 charge, +1 flank, disrupted formation (for an effective swing up to +3) and its own ranks and banner if those bonuses weren't already present.

I'm not saying kills aren't important, but I'm saying it's way too oversimplified to say that everything is purely on kills now.

Your opponents must be new to the game if they are letting you get to their flanks or rear with Dwarves consistantly.

Not at all.. Dwarves are VERY mobile now. March 6" then anvil your way into their flank since its a 3+2d6 move now instead of 6"

Rangers and anvil go a long way into letting dwarves flank attack people

I think that it all depends on the opponents lore and the winds of magic. (at least for WOC going no magic)

If your opponent is a Std Slann build (lore of Life) you only need to stop 2 spells each turn Flesh to Stone and Earth. hey if they regrow d6+1 not a big deal as I will have killer units in combat. Dwellers hurts but against WOC stat lines it is not too bad (except marauders of course, but my marauder horde would stay home to be replaced by warrior horde) also funny when slann miscasts and no one to use cupped hands against

Death magic and shadow are more difficult as there are more than 2 "Must Dispell" spells.

Metal just hurts WOC period.

Light if you prevent speed of light you are good if you prevent speed and timewarp you are great.

Beasts stop wildform... let transform go off... use all your power dice to dispel on your turn

Fire stop the sword otherwise whatever is convenient

and so on....

The point is that you WILL take casualties from magic and you need to accept it. You should stop anything that makes it hard for you to kill them in CC and get to CC as fast as you can (also I recommend 2 hellcannons...sooner or later you will misfire and roll '3' not too mention that they attract fire)

I am not sure that any army other than WOC can go without some kind of magic. maybe khorne deamons?

Only Dwarfs can do no magic properly.

I've been debating using magic resistance to minimize magic casualties. Problem is my trolls always fear pit of shades and purple sun... ugh.

I hate spending upwards of 300 points on a level 4 caster only to have him do very little. First three turns of game 3 at 'ard boyz I rolled 1 and 3 for winds of magic. I couldn't do anything with that against the enemy's level 3.

Spellbound wrote:I've been debating using magic resistance to minimize magic casualties. Problem is my trolls always fear pit of shades and purple sun... ugh.

I hate spending upwards of 300 points on a level 4 caster only to have him do very little. First three turns of game 3 at 'ard boyz I rolled 1 and 3 for winds of magic. I couldn't do anything with that against the enemy's level 3.

True. Shame Khorne lost his ability to generate dispel dice. I found that pretty darn useful to have 6 or so units giving me dispel as long as they didnt run!

Grey Templar wrote:Your opponents must be new to the game if they are letting you get to their flanks or rear with Dwarves consistantly.

Well, all I can say is that there's ways to make it happen- and I build my army around the hold and counter-flank line of thought. I go with multiple medium units (MMU?) to pull this off, and while it's got it's weaknesses, I do get ranked units into the flank. Rangers and MR of Challenge help too.

And to the OP: Sorry about the hijack. I've played about 11 games, and only 2 didn't bring level 4s- one of those was an Empire army with warrior priests for dispel dice too, so I'm not sure where that leaves you. I can say that I've been getting by mostly okay with +1 dispel die (runesmith), 2 scrolls, and the innate dwarven +2 to dispel. Just don't know how well that translates into what anyone else can take.

RZ

Having only played about 6 games of 8th Ed. (with Dark Elves), I still can't imagine not having a Level 4 Sorceress along for defense.

Too many easy opportunities to combo with hexes, augments, and direct damagers like Pit of Shades, Dweller's Below, Purple Sun, etc.

- Blackbone

I have had good luck so far taking no wizards. I do take cluster of radiants, which gives me +1 dispel dice. On a poor winds of magic roll, I can scrape by just fine.

And I've got another nasty combat unit in my army, rather than a wizard. Unfortunately unless I take an elf (which can't join any of my forest spirit units) I only get the lore of athel loren, which isn't too great. So a caster is mainly for magic defense for me, and it has seemed better to take my chances (and even some losses) from magic, knowing that I've spent an extra 400 points on combat units and can afford to take a hit.

It's definitely viable, and in some games can really turn things in your favor by NOT wasting those points on a caster (especially if it's mostly just for defense, like in my case).

Things get into combat quickly now, and if the caster doesn't get off a big spell in turns 1 or 2, a lot of times you're golden!

One question- I see a lot of things about using dice to dispel remains in play spells, which is what I use mine for. But a lot of spells it seems (hexes and buffs) aren't specifically worded as "Remains in Play" but rather something like "lasts until the caster's next magic phase".

Can these be dispelled in your own phase? I think not, but thought I'd ask just in case...

Yes, any enemy spell that is active during your Magic phase may be dispelled using your own Power dice.