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I am really confused about how to build a Chaos Deamon army.

Does it work best to focus on a single God's army?

Can they be mixed effectively?

Yes they can be single god for the sake of theme, but you really hamper the effectiveness of you army. So if you want to have a decent army, sadly, mono god wont be as good, (maybe khorne or Tzeentch, just barely effective)

Mixing is definetly the way to go for an effective, reliable, and balanced list.

The biggest bane of Daemons, is Mech (and DH but seriously, who fields pure DH to play anyway) So you want alot of Vehicle punching elements in your army, such as Princes with Bolt, Horrors, etc.

And another thing, FIENDS FIENDS FIENDS. I always bring 2 Squads of 6 and a Blood crusher Squad for kicks.

Ok, baicly you can make the army how ever you want, 1 theme ( example: maybe a whole army of khorne or nurgle) or maybe 2 or 3 0r all of the themes.

The thing about Chaos Daesmons are that each figure is good in a certain way.

Are you thinking about doing Chaos or something?

I am not a CD player myself but face them (semi)regularly. A few pointers.

- Mix. The CD army really benefits from co-operation between Chaos gods. Mono power armies make for one-trick ponies.
- Icons are a must. Since the army has a unique entry mode, you really must invest in enough Icons. The best working CD lists I have faced all used an "anvil and hammer" approach. The preferred first wave is Nurgle heavy with lots of Icons. Tzeentch/Khorne/Slaanesh heavy wave comes in second.

Feforfar wrote:

Are you thinking about doing Chaos or something?

I am currently playing a full Mech Eldar list, with no CC elements. I want to play a CC heavy army, with little to no shooting. I have read the Ork and Tyranid codices and I just don't like the feel of either. So Chaos Deamons it is.

I just need to figure out how to play them. Their units seem strange compared to the Eldar. I have read some Deamon tactica and have figured out which units "should" be in the list, but I would really like a full khorne/slaanesh army.

Than just simply talk to the people at GW and ask them about it or unless you want us to answer that, if your going for Khorne and Slannesh army than get 10 blood letters and skulltaekr and some fiends, thats a good starting army!

A-P wrote: I am not a CD player myself but face them (semi)regularly. A few pointers.

- Mix. The CD army really benefits from co-operation between Chaos gods. Mono power armies make for one-trick ponies.
- Icons are a must. Since the army has a unique entry mode, you really must invest in enough Icons. The best working CD lists I have faced all used an "anvil and hammer" approach. The preferred first wave is Nurgle heavy with lots of Icons. Tzeentch/Khorne/Slaanesh heavy wave comes in second.

Icons are NOT a must. They aren't terrible to have one, or MAYBE 2 (at really high point values) But for the most part, they aren't worth the hefty points investment. They cause your army to bunch up, make how you come in predictable, and force you to take bigger units than you really want too.

While there is something to be said in an unbalanced wave group, it means that an already gimped army is going to pretty much lose the 1/3 games where the main wave doesn't come in.

I will echo the sentiment that mono god armies are usually bad. Here is a slot by slot break down of the unit choices. Of course it reflects my personal bias, So YMMV

HQ: lots of good choices, but it really comes down to how efficient and how badly the army needs heralds of slaanesh or tzentch. Kairos works for some, and all of the greater daemons have their uses, but its the heralds that shine in efficiency and effectiveness.

Elite: People swear by flamers and bloodcrushers, but I've found them wanting outside of fateweaver lists. The flamers are too suicide squad like, and bloodcrushers attract AP weapons so their superior save is often wasted (and they are slow when they land, more used as an anvil unit than an effective threat projection) Fiends on the other hand hit hard, and move VERY fast. Being the cheapest elite choice also helps their case.

Troops: Troops are for scoring, and being durable. Plague bearers it is. That being said, you don't need all slots with just these guys, in fact you don't need many in each unit. So that leaves you the option of taking other troops, all of which have their niche they can fill. Horrors for ranged ability (feeble as it is). Letters for anti meq, and daemonettes for assaulting into cover.

FA: Not much to choose from here. Hounds are fast and hit hard (have issues attacking into cover). Screamers are as specialized as you get (melta bombs are their only value). Seekers move fast (and assault into cover), but lack durability and hitting power (though quantity of attacks and rending help). Furies are worse than hounds, and can't fill the roles of the other units. (and are the same cost, so draw a conclusion)

Heavy: DP depends on build. Can be a lean mean killing machine, or a bloated points sink unable to do anything. Grinders: their anti tank and infantry ability looks good, except they have BS 3, and they must get into melta range to really hurt infantry.

How good are Fiends of Slaanesh at killing tanks now with the rending change?

Also, the Fateweaver seems AMAZING. All those re-rolls. Can the points be justified at 1500?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
How about this for a starting CC Daemon army:

HQ

Masque - Idea is to move enemy units around so that I can get closer to charge in.

Elite

Fiends of Slaanesh x 5 Unholy Might
Fiends of Slaanesh x 5 Unholy Might

Blood Crushers x 4 Fury/Icon/Instrument
Blood Crushers x 4 Fury/Icon/Instrument

Troops
Bloodletters x 10 Fury
Bloodletters x 10 Fury
Bloodletters x 10 Fury

Heavy Support

Daemon Prince Vanilla
Daemon Prince Vanilla

This comes to 1490, what do you think?

Thats better, and what it mean 'Vanila"?

Vanilla means no upgrades.

Ah, right!

phyrephly wrote:How good are Fiends of Slaanesh at killing tanks now with the rending change?

Also, the Fateweaver seems AMAZING. All those re-rolls. Can the points be justified at 1500?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
How about this for a starting CC Daemon army:

HQ

Masque - Idea is to move enemy units around so that I can get closer to charge in.

Elite

Fiends of Slaanesh x 5 Unholy Might
Fiends of Slaanesh x 5 Unholy Might

Blood Crushers x 4 Fury/Icon/Instrument
Blood Crushers x 4 Fury/Icon/Instrument

Troops
Bloodletters x 10 Fury
Bloodletters x 10 Fury
Bloodletters x 10 Fury

Heavy Support

Daemon Prince Vanilla
Daemon Prince Vanilla

This comes to 1490, what do you think?

Looks better except for the lack of legality.... Seriously, you ONLY get 3 elite slots. Use them well.

Also not a big fan of rending on single models that already have power weapons. Rending works best in units, since its pretty rare to actually get a rend. With crushers and letters... You are S6 and S5 on the charge already, only tanks you can't really pen are AV 14 all around. Why do you need rending?

Your troops aren't really up to the task of living. Sure, 30 guys is going to take a bit of effort to kill, but those guys are blood letters. They are going to need to close (so rapid fire eating) and against smart players are going to have to assault into cover (take losses assaulting before getting to attack). My personal feeling is that you start with a few units of plague bearers, work your way to maxing out the other slots, then come back to the troops slots and get some more offensive power.

Masque is ok at what she does... But it struggles since people like to take mech lists these days. Not as many targets that she can force to dance. It can be helped if you take your DPs with bolt of tzeentch. BS5 armor busting is pretty good, and it becomes a fire magnet (which is good, since it has a 4++)

Fiends can still pen any tank in the game (yes, it requires upgraded strength to do it with them... but it is possible) A S5 fiend will pen most vehicles n the game, has the movement to actually catch them (unlike crushers) and has a bunch of attacks on the charge to actually have a good chance of getting a rend.

Some people squeeze fateweaver in at 1000... can it be justified? Yes... (using the def: to show a satisfactory reason or excuse for something done.) Some people have had success with fateweaver w/crushers. It certainly looks like a formidable Unit O' Death. And it is. Any unit which costs well over 1/3 of you total points better be after all. The problem it is it is slow. Infantry movement without fleet? Obvious target even with rerolls? Since you take less army, more firepower is going to go into less units. You WILL fail a good number of rolls against people who focus fire. AP weapons? a 5++ rerollable will still fail about 45 percent of the time. Torrent of fire can put out the volume to even take wounds off of 3+ rerolls. (I know this since I have played against it with SoB and their bolter/flamer/melta spam)

I find the Daemon armies to be very difficult to balance. Its just, weird

How about the following:

Fateweaver

3 X 6 Fiend Units

4 x 5 Plaguebeare units

2 x DP with Mark and Bolt of Tzeentch?

I like that last list, though i would find points for another prince. Im not liking 4 PB units, 3 would be sufficient.

@notabot
You want rending on the bloodcrushers for wound allocation, that way, every crusher with an upgrade takes a wound first before actually taking out a crusher model.

enmitee wrote:I like that last list, though i would find points for another prince. Im not liking 4 PB units, 3 would be sufficient.

@notabot
You want rending on the bloodcrushers for wound allocation, that way, every crusher with an upgrade takes a wound first before actually taking out a crusher model.

Not worth the points. At least when you do it with nob bikers and maybe crisis suites you are getting a worth while upgrade out of it.

notabot187 wrote:

Icons are NOT a must. They aren't terrible to have one, or MAYBE 2 (at really high point values) But for the most part, they aren't worth the hefty points investment.

I beg to differ. Nothing is more annoying than non-scattering flamer units coming via DS to burn/glance your units to death. Icons are well worth their point cost.

@notabot
I think itw very well worth the point, its actually like getting another crusher in terms of durability. Sure Nob bikers get it, and crisis get it as well, but they are instagimped by MLs and las cannons. Which is most likely going their way.

enmitee wrote:I like that last list, though i would find points for another prince. Im not liking 4 PB units, 3 would be sufficient.

So maybe dropping the PB units to 3 and getting some better upgrades for the DP's?

Ironhide?
Demonic Flight?
Unholy Might?

take out 1 fiend from each squad, and add a 3rd dp with the same upgrades. Or if you cant count on the 4+, keep the fiends and jsut give the 2 prince's armor.

Cool I'll try that thanks.

Are there any non-shooting but still good upgrades for the DP's?

I'm not really sure why people suggest the armor upgrade for the princes. How much better is a 3+ save which you don't get against the typical anti tank weapons sent towards DPs? Why not just take mark of tzeentch for the save that you always get except against some random GK and Ctan weapons?

Ok, maybe that was a bit too specific, for non tzeentch princes it isn't bad. Saves you against small arms and CC But honestly CC princes aren't the greatest due to a variety of reasons, mostly how expensive wings are, and how slow they are without them. So I were to make a DP meant for something other than shooting, I would build the following:

Generic prince: iron hide, wings. ~ 170
This build is relatively cheap, same cost as a tzeentch DP with bolt and breath.

Slaanesh: Iron hide, wings, MoS, aura, musk ~ 205
This build is a bit more expensive, but gains hit and run, Initiative, and grenades.

Khorne: Iron hide, wings, MoK ~ 185
Slight increase in ability over generic prince (+1 attack) other than their really isn't anything else good to take.

Nurgal: Iron hide, wings, MoN, cloud ~ 205
Ability to assault into cover, boosted toughness.

The basic problem with DP upgrades is they cost so much, often for very little increase in ability. They still move like infantry, so if they have a bad deepstrike, or the opponent brings a mobile list... they can have issue getting in close. So that makes CC DPs almost require wings (sure you can usually still find targets, but with wings you can pick and choose your targets). Iron hide is needed for CC princes since they are more likely to have to weather a fair number of wounds (being in RF range and in cc does that)

As for my recommended build? :

Tzeentch: MoT, bolt, breath ~ 170
Good universal save (4++) two weapons at least marginally effective on vehicles (and bolt being very effective) while breath is potentially devastating against any infantry type. While unlikely it is going to find CC, it does happen if you get close to a transport and pop it. While not the greatest CC unit, it still is a DP.

Thanks for the in-depth view notabot.

It is always hard to attempt to remove an element (which is integral to the basics) from a game. In my specific situation, the shooting phase. It looks like I should probably take at least a small amount of shooting capability. That said, would the Soul Grinders not be better than DP's if they are going to end up shooting anyway?

I'm not a fan of soul grinders. They have poor BS, which makes their weapons do less than hoped. Being the only AV unit in the army, they will attract pretty much all the heavy weapons fire that would be going towards DPs... but grinders can be destroyed with a single lucky shot. Or almost as bad, have the mawcannon detroyed (which IIRC destroys all upgrades for it...)

Grinders have the fleet special rule, and a good number of attacks (for a dred) so really if you run them a vanilla one with just vomit and harvester is enough... Remember though, with walker units it is better to be in assault than to be standing at melta range of something after shooting. (and dreds rarely kill off a unit in just one combat round)

I have played Daemons in allot of tournaments and won most of them. I used to play mono nurgle witch is a solid attrition list and allot of fun, but if you want a really really hard hitting list fate crusher is it, here is both of my event winning 1500 lists.

First is fate crusher

Fateweaver
Bloodthirstier no upgrades
10 bloodletters
10 bloodletters
4 bloodcrushers full upgrades
4 bloodcrushers full upgrades
4 bloodcrushers icon and fury

Nurgle

GUO with Cloud of flies
Epidemius
6 nurglings
7 nurglings
7 plaguebeaers
7 plaguebeaers
7 pleagebeaers with icon
7 pleagebeaers with icon
DP mark of nurgle armer wings COF NT
DP mark of nurgle armer wings COF NT
DP mark of nurgle armer COF NT

The first list keep fate and the thirster holding hands and watch them walk through almost anything the bloodcrushers are there to be the tanks. Every thing hits hard as can be and some times when I want to get nasty and I dont see many orcs comming to the event I will run the bloodletters in size of 8 and run scarbrand.

The nurgle the key is to have the tallyman sit in cover with the 6 nurglings and have them away from the battle and taking ground. yea thats a 2+ cover save.

The lists are solid and are allot of fun.

You can play Soul Grinders, you just have to use them right.

Ideally they come on in a first wave, and you drop them far from the enemy. Give them the Phlegm upgrade and they can actually be dropping Battlecannon pie plates on the enemy. Then when the rest of the boys show up they can move in for the kill.

You really don't want to get them close unsupported because they will get meltad into oblivion.

I wouldn't necessarily say put the grinders always in the first wave. I give my grinders both upgrades to up their utility.

As an example I played a game this week against a Tau army. He had 2 piranha's, 2; hammerheads, and 2 broadsides that could actually hurt my grinders. He put the piranha's in reserve and everything else started on the table. Since there was so much str10 stuff out there I elected to drop my 3 tzeentch heralds instead of the 3 grinders. By the time the grinder's came in (on turn 3) they shook one hammer head, one of the chariot's had ripped the gun off of the other hammerhead, and my fiends had made it into combat with his broadsides. Since I kept my grinders more than 18 inch's from his side of the table he effective had nothing that could hurt the grinders.
The other two grinders killed off 3 crisis battle suits between the two of them.

Putting grinders in the second wave gives you an opportunity to eliminate anti-tank and then watch the grinder's run rampant through armies.

Now if I'm playing against someone that has no long ranged anti-tank, then I will drop the grinders first in the middile to back of the board to entice them to come towards me so the fiends can eat them.

the chaos guy wrote:I have played Daemons in allot of tournaments and won most of them. I used to play mono nurgle witch is a solid attrition list and allot of fun, but if you want a really really hard hitting list fate crusher is it, here is both of my event winning 1500 lists.

First is fate crusher

Fateweaver
Bloodthirstier no upgrades
10 bloodletters
10 bloodletters
4 bloodcrushers full upgrades
4 bloodcrushers full upgrades
4 bloodcrushers icon and fury

Nurgle

GUO with Cloud of flies
Epidemius
6 nurglings
7 nurglings
7 plaguebeaers
7 plaguebeaers
7 pleagebeaers with icon
7 pleagebeaers with icon
DP mark of nurgle armer wings COF NT
DP mark of nurgle armer wings COF NT
DP mark of nurgle armer COF NT

The first list keep fate and the thirster holding hands and watch them walk through almost anything the bloodcrushers are there to be the tanks. Every thing hits hard as can be and some times when I want to get nasty and I dont see many orcs comming to the event I will run the bloodletters in size of 8 and run scarbrand.

The nurgle the key is to have the tallyman sit in cover with the 6 nurglings and have them away from the battle and taking ground. yea thats a 2+ cover save.

The lists are solid and are allot of fun.

I doubt that you would win any tournaments with those lists unless you were extremely lucky, or were playing against beginners. You will lose 2/3 of all games with the first list, as any experienced player will immediately kill your bloodletters. And sure, crushers kill stuff, but good luck getting them into combat as you have nothing to pin enemy units with to let the crushers catch up, and practically no antitank. Seriously, any mech army, which is the most common type of army youll face in 5th ed, especially in tourneys, will just run rings around you.

On the second list... if epi doesnt show up on turn 1, youre f*****. Simple as that really.

phyrephly wrote:How good are Fiends of Slaanesh at killing tanks now with the rending change?

Also, the Fateweaver seems AMAZING. All those re-rolls. Can the points be justified at 1500?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
How about this for a starting CC Daemon army:

HQ

Masque - Idea is to move enemy units around so that I can get closer to charge in.

Elite

Fiends of Slaanesh x 5 Unholy Might
Fiends of Slaanesh x 5 Unholy Might

Blood Crushers x 4 Fury/Icon/Instrument
Blood Crushers x 4 Fury/Icon/Instrument

Troops
Bloodletters x 10 Fury
Bloodletters x 10 Fury
Bloodletters x 10 Fury

Heavy Support

Daemon Prince Vanilla
Daemon Prince Vanilla

This comes to 1490, what do you think?

Masque is a 2-wound T3 non-IC. And she can't benefit from cover. Don't count on her lasting, even with her 3++.

DPs need some upgrade to saves and/or toughness. T5 with a 5++ doesn't last very long, even with a decent number of wounds.

You definitely could always use some anti-tank shooting. DP and SG both have things going for them; DPs with Bolt can pretty reliably take out rhinos and such. SGs have a chance of actually taking out LRs that haven't inexplicably decided to go 6" or less, which no other unit is really any good at. (Yes, a lucky Bolt can do it. That's a 1/36 chance, if you hit in the first place.) So it really comes down to which one you'd rather not be able to deal with.

Would any of you fine gentlemen mind taking a look at this list for me?

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/314818.page

I actually thing you hit it on the head earlier.

At 1500 points it's really good to just run the following except I'd drop Fateweaver and replace him with a couple of heralds of tzeentch with bolt and chariot. With 5 wounds and a 4+ invul they survive and function fairly well as mobile bolt platforms.

3xTzeentch Heralds

3x 6 man fiend units

4 x 5 man Plaguebearer units

2 x DP with Mark and Bolt of Tzeentch