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matthc wrote:I actually thing you hit it on the head earlier.

At 1500 points it's really good to just run the following except I'd drop Fateweaver and replace him with a couple of heralds of tzeentch with bolt and chariot. With 5 wounds and a 4+ invul they survive and function fairly well as mobile bolt platforms.

3xTzeentch Heralds

3x 6 man fiend units

4 x 5 man Plaguebearer units

2 x DP with Mark and Bolt of Tzeentch

This list is pretty good for what daemons can do already.

matthc wrote:I actually thing you hit it on the head earlier.

At 1500 points it's really good to just run the following except I'd drop Fateweaver and replace him with a couple of heralds of tzeentch with bolt and chariot. With 5 wounds and a 4+ invul they survive and function fairly well as mobile bolt platforms.

3xTzeentch Heralds

3x 6 man fiend units

4 x 5 man Plaguebearer units

2 x DP with Mark and Bolt of Tzeentch

This list is about as min/maxed as you can get at 1500. Shooting is actually decent enough to be a threat, you have durable troops, and your CC units can threaten anything in the game.

I personally don't use shooting, so I go with a more assault army, which means Slaanesh heralds on chariots, and hounds instead of tzeentch princes and heralds.

The fate crusher list has always done well vs mech because everything can destroy transports really well. With FC and lots of attacks they crush rear armer so easy. VS land raiders there is nothing better in the game to hunt them than a scarbrand/ bloodthirstier. And yes they can kill the troops but if they do at 1500 they are letting the other daemons run free and I will almost always clear the table. At 1500 two troops are enough. This list just destroys mech. The nurgle list yes its better when the tally man is on the board but sense it plays by attrition its offence is of less of the concern. The daemon princes are one of the worst units in the game but with nurgle they are very good to get the tally up but even with the tally all the way up the list is still not that killy it is just very hard to kill anything.

I assure you that I do not just play new players and yes I have won allot.

The lists are very solid just deep strike safely and make your first run count.

the chaos guy wrote:The fate crusher list has always done well vs mech because everything can destroy transports really well. With FC and lots of attacks they crush rear armer so easy. VS land raiders there is nothing better in the game to hunt them than a scarbrand/ bloodthirstier. And yes they can kill the troops but if they do at 1500 they are letting the other daemons run free and I will almost always clear the table. At 1500 two troops are enough. This list just destroys mech. The nurgle list yes its better when the tally man is on the board but sense it plays by attrition its offence is of less of the concern. The daemon princes are one of the worst units in the game but with nurgle they are very good to get the tally up but even with the tally all the way up the list is still not that killy it is just very hard to kill anything.

I assure you that I do not just play new players and yes I have won allot.

The lists are very solid just deep strike safely and make your first run count.

I'm not saying bloodcrushers cant kill vehicles, they can, but they cant catch them in the first place. You have exactly 1 bs5 bolt in your fatecrusher army. Your bloodcruhers move 6". How do you intend to catch anything??

Killing 20 bloodletters really isnt too difficult btw.

notabot187 wrote:

enmitee wrote:I like that last list, though i would find points for another prince. Im not liking 4 PB units, 3 would be sufficient.

@notabot
You want rending on the bloodcrushers for wound allocation, that way, every crusher with an upgrade takes a wound first before actually taking out a crusher model.

Not worth the points. At least when you do it with nob bikers and maybe crisis suites you are getting a worth while upgrade out of it.

Im a little late but it should be said that fury is well worth it on bloodcrushers. It serves a double purpose. One use being wound allocation, the other being insurance vs walkers. When a dread or a defiler charges into your squad of bloodcrushers you will be glad you have one of them that can kill it. Otherwise that unit is now officially tarpitted.

Bloodcrushers have a very large deapstrike foot print and can run the first turn they land so if you land lets say 14 inches away from your target you place the first one and the others closeer then run them on average lets say 4 inches the next turn the tank moves 12 inches away your still in charge range yes you will need 6s but with 16 attacks, and rerolls if you ran skar thats 4 to 8 hits then with str 6 that is really good odds of stopping that tank. Now your right that if they are fast transports moving 24 inches a turn like eldar your going to have a tough time but to think that bloodcrushers have a hard time with mech its simply not true. now I will say some times it takes a turn or 2 to get o the target but that is the same with any assault base army. I have screamers and I dont think those fast troops can kill like bloodletters or bloodcrushers except Raiders of course but that is bloodthirster bait. Mech like IG or any merc army is easy bait for me the tough fights are orcs or bugs.

the chaos guy wrote:Bloodcrushers have a very large deapstrike foot print and can run the first turn they land so if you land lets say 14 inches away from your target you place the first one and the others closeer then run them on average lets say 4 inches the next turn the tank moves 12 inches away your still in charge range yes you will need 6s but with 16 attacks, and rerolls if you ran skar thats 4 to 8 hits then with str 6 that is really good odds of stopping that tank. Now your right that if they are fast transports moving 24 inches a turn like eldar your going to have a tough time but to think that bloodcrushers have a hard time with mech its simply not true. now I will say some times it takes a turn or 2 to get o the target but that is the same with any assault base army. I have screamers and I dont think those fast troops can kill like bloodletters or bloodcrushers except Raiders of course but that is bloodthirster bait. Mech like IG or any merc army is easy bait for me the tough fights are orcs or bugs.

I don't mean to be abrasive but I completely disagree with your advice. Bloodcrushers are nice fire magnets and can kill most non dedicated assault units with ease, yet they really do lack mobility. If you are managing to drop your crushers 14 inches from your target your opponent isn't properly setting up deep strike defense or you are just extremely lucky. Even in the scenario you mentioned you forget that you still need to roll to hit so a smart opponent who notices your lucky drop is going to move counter units into position to prevent you from doing any real damage or is just going to move over 6 inches and you won't hit enough to do any real damage. We can debate the more specific points later, but right now I'm inebriated.

the chaos guy wrote:Bloodcrushers have a very large deapstrike foot print and can run the first turn they land so if you land lets say 14 inches away from your target you place the first one and the others closeer then run them on average lets say 4 inches the next turn the tank moves 12 inches away your still in charge range yes you will need 6s but with 16 attacks, and rerolls if you ran skar thats 4 to 8 hits then with str 6 that is really good odds of stopping that tank. Now your right that if they are fast transports moving 24 inches a turn like eldar your going to have a tough time but to think that bloodcrushers have a hard time with mech its simply not true. now I will say some times it takes a turn or 2 to get o the target but that is the same with any assault base army. I have screamers and I dont think those fast troops can kill like bloodletters or bloodcrushers except Raiders of course but that is bloodthirster bait. Mech like IG or any merc army is easy bait for me the tough fights are orcs or bugs.

Ok, you deep strike so you are really close to the enemy. Lets say 2 inches away. You run to just one inch away. Tank moves 12 away from you. How do you assault? Pro tip: You don't. Blood crushers at their FASTEST (which is assault move or a 6 on a run) which is the same as a tank. Which means you never catch tanks that aren't otherwise pinned in place. Sure, that means that the tank isn't shooting, unless its a skimmer... but you are the one with the 160+ cost unit chasing what is probably a cheap transport or support tank.

I also want to address the post someone made on fury against walkers, about being insurance. To damage a typical AV 12 walker your one model with its 3 attacks has to roll a 6 to rend. Then it needs to roll a 3+ to pen. IIRC it comes out to about 5 percent chance to destroy a SM dred when the dred gets the assault. Rending is good when a unit gets it. Rending is bad when you have to pay points for it on a single model.

ive seen this daemons army used to rather crazy effectivness by a guy at my flgs. not sure on the exact upgrades, just the models.

2x greater nurgle deamons

2-3x max units of bloodletters
3x soul grinders (with max upgrade i believe)
a unit of roughly 5 fiends

points vary around 1850-2k. generally the greater dameons and soul grinders show up first, with the greater daemons showing up in the middle of enemy lines where they start puking on things and the letters and fiends come in second. ive also seen nurgle lesser daemons fielded in this list at higher points.every time ive played against it ive had my butt royally handed to me, although the last time i gave him a good run for the money.

notabot187 wrote:

the chaos guy wrote:Bloodcrushers have a very large deapstrike foot print and can run the first turn they land so if you land lets say 14 inches away from your target you place the first one and the others closeer then run them on average lets say 4 inches the next turn the tank moves 12 inches away your still in charge range yes you will need 6s but with 16 attacks, and rerolls if you ran skar thats 4 to 8 hits then with str 6 that is really good odds of stopping that tank. Now your right that if they are fast transports moving 24 inches a turn like eldar your going to have a tough time but to think that bloodcrushers have a hard time with mech its simply not true. now I will say some times it takes a turn or 2 to get o the target but that is the same with any assault base army. I have screamers and I dont think those fast troops can kill like bloodletters or bloodcrushers except Raiders of course but that is bloodthirster bait. Mech like IG or any merc army is easy bait for me the tough fights are orcs or bugs.

Ok, you deep strike so you are really close to the enemy. Lets say 2 inches away. You run to just one inch away. Tank moves 12 away from you. How do you assault? Pro tip: You don't. Blood crushers at their FASTEST (which is assault move or a 6 on a run) which is the same as a tank. Which means you never catch tanks that aren't otherwise pinned in place. Sure, that means that the tank isn't shooting, unless its a skimmer... but you are the one with the 160+ cost unit chasing what is probably a cheap transport or support tank.

I also want to address the post someone made on fury against walkers, about being insurance. To damage a typical AV 12 walker your one model with its 3 attacks has to roll a 6 to rend. Then it needs to roll a 3+ to pen. IIRC it comes out to about 5 percent chance to destroy a SM dred when the dred gets the assault. Rending is good when a unit gets it. Rending is bad when you have to pay points for it on a single model.

You also need to note that 2 inches is really really darn close. If you are deepstriking 2 inches away from your opponent you probably don't need our advice as the dice gods are smiling upon you.

In regards to whether it's better to go for a Single-God Army; I'd say so. It's much more Themed and Focussed as an Army. My pick would be Nurgle. Epidemius, GUO, Plaguebearers, Nurglings, BoNs and you're set.

"Better" in what sense? I love my Tzeentchian guys (with occasional help from a Slaanesh unit), but if I wanted to win more often I'd do more mixing.

And no, mono Nurgle isn't the best. They are lacking good ways of dealing with vehicles, even more than other daemon lists.

matthc wrote: You also need to note that 2 inches is really really darn close. If you are deepstriking 2 inches away from your opponent you probably don't need our advice as the dice gods are smiling upon you.

I was just illustrating that even in the luckiest deep strike you can't actually catch a mobile opponent.

Also... You know how 1/3 of the time you are on target, then when you scatter, you only scatter towards the opponent like half of the time, and even then not always directly towards them? Also how the average scatter distance is 7 inches, and most tanks and infantry units are not 7 inches in depth. If you scatter toward the enemy, if you start your deep strike close, you have good chance of ending up on the other side of him. If you scatter away, the worst you end up is 14 inches away (assuming a 2 inch away deep strike attempt) If you are on target, you are right in his face. So the only time you have issues is if you both roll below average, and you scatter towards the unit you are landing next to. Now if your opponent is deployed well, then you still might scatter onto other units... But that is the problem with deep striking isn't it?

If your opponent castles up, going for the super close deep strike is a powerful move. Especially if you do it on all fronts, as it denies his ability to break out of the pocket. Against a daemon army, a non mobile enemy is a dead enemy.

Now if your opponent is smart, he will move to spread out, putting his unts about 7 inches apart... Then he will give you a nice big open space to safely deep strike into... This nice open space is also known as the killing zone... So then the option is to take the bait, and hope you can weather the fire... land on a flank outside of the zone and hope to roll it (while the other flank has the chance to play keep away) or to play the risky game of landing inside his army (which can screw you, or make a mess of his best laid plans)

I was agreeing with you. I was just highlighting the fact that you were indeed referring to "the luckiest" you could be get except for a direct hit. Plus it's not like crushers really do that much anyways if it's against mech. With 6s to hit and then at least another 4+ to glance you really aren't going to do that much.