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Do you use them to hold objectives at all? I'm debating to use a squad of 20 shoota boys with some big shootas to camp on rear objectives. However I feel boyz should always charge the enemy with sluggas and choppas otherwise its a wasted Powerklaw half the time...Should I just use some grots? What do you do for objectives?

I have a 67pt mob of Grots I use to hold backfield objectives for Capture and Control.

For Seize Ground, I place all but one of my objectives centrally and then rush my Trukk boyz out to hold them while my Grots hold my central(to prevent outflankers) backfield one.

My list has 5 Trukks of boyz so not too much objective holding power, I usually play for a late game grab.

Grots. Take whatever the min size is, get them on the objective, and go to ground.

Cheap and survivable.

It's really simple for Orks, I'll give you an Ork mission by Ork mission breakdown

Seize Ground = Annihilation
Capture and Hold = Annihilation
Annihilation = ...Annihilation

Seriously play to table your opponent in every mission

19 grots + runtherd for back field holding, just put them in terrain and go to ground, also reserve if you want to have them come in later. Paying double to have boys just sit there is pointless.

General_Chaos wrote:It's really simple for Orks, I'll give you an Ork mission by Ork mission breakdown

Seize Ground = Annihilation
Capture and Hold = Annihilation
Annihilation = ...Annihilation

Seriously play to table your opponent in every mission

I know Orks aren't meant for their strategy compared to say Eldar, but at least some grots on an objective could work. Although I see where your coming from in the point of annihilation. It's just so damn Orky

If you want nuance play Tau... Orks in a non-annihilation mission means we beat the snot out of those silly gits that consider themselves troops and on turn 5 run to the objective...

Deff koptas and buggies are also great for contesting objectives...

QuietOrkmi wrote:If you want nuance play Tau... Orks in a non-annihilation mission means we beat the snot out of those silly gits that consider themselves troops and on turn 5 run to the objective...

Well said i use grots to decorate my vehicles that's it why spend points on something thats just going to die whether it gets shot or assaulted. The 50ish point grot squad can be 2 more power klaws or 5 big choppa or even better 5 rokkit launchas on your orky vehicles. The more rokkits you fire at the enemy the better eventualy one will swerve into its intended target.

Personally I'm not a big fan of ork squads. Their cost is cheap, but not cheap enough considering their problems (lack of armor, BS, decent weapon options, decent dedicated transport... you know, things most other armies get). Take a big squad to get past their lack of abilities... and they become unwieldy. Take a small squad, and they die too easy if you actually try to use them offensively.

So instead of boyz, I take grots and nobs as troops. Grots for friendlier objectives, nobs for capturing enemy held ones.

notabot187 wrote:Personally I'm not a big fan of ork squads. Their cost is cheap, but not cheap enough considering their problems (lack of armor, BS, decent weapon options, decent dedicated transport... you know, things most other armies get). Take a big squad to get past their lack of abilities... and they become unwieldy. Take a small squad, and they die too easy if you actually try to use them offensively.

So instead of boyz, I take grots and nobs as troops. Grots for friendlier objectives, nobs for capturing enemy held ones.

I definitely disagree with you. Boyz are, IMO, the most versatile troops choice in the game. Shootas can hold objectives, two mobs of sluggas in Trukks can mow down most anything, and they're only six points each to boot!

Really? The most versatile troop in the game when its save, BS, weapon options, transport options, and points per model (so all of the actually important things) are overshadowed by the lowly guardsman? What do you get in return? A slightly strong gun, on a tougher model, with more attacks that has furious charge? Guard can get furious charge AND counter attack with an upgrade character. So orks are tougher, and have more attacks.

On top of that, the thing that was supposed to be a boost to them, the fearless rule, is a huge liability in 5th ed with fearless wounds on 6+ save models. Great, not only did I lose more models (even though I won in points destroyed) I get to lose almost as many more? My big squad in one full turn no longer fearless?

Anyways... Versatility is NOT what orks are good at. Let the ultra SMurfs be the best generalist, and guard actually do blob hordes better. Orks take the extreme road. Need a objective holder, doesn't really need to do anything? Grots are cheap. Need a scoring unit to take ground? Nobs with warboss it is, you pay through the nose, but can go toe to toe with most anything.

I guess I just have trouble imagining a list with no boyz in it being successful at much.

notabot187 wrote:...the fearless rule, is a huge liability in 5th ed with fearless wounds on 6+ save models. Great, not only did I lose more models (even though I won in points destroyed) I get to lose almost as many more?

I couldnt agree more! Fearless SUCKS!!! I managed to loose half of all three of my boyz mobz last tourney because of this freakin rule!
From now on, think Ill field Nobz and warbosses and go for the kill!!!

While I wouldn't call Boyz the most versatile but I would call them the BEST Troops choice in the game! These are a troop choice you actually want to take over the mandatory two choice you have to take

Guard blob > Ork Horde??? This has to be a joke...

Go ahead and take Grots to hold that objective on Capture and Hold it's only one mission. If am playing seize ground I place all my objective on the same side at my opponents hoping they take that side cause that's where am going anyways.

Orks arent versatile

But they are very effective at doing 1 or 2 jobs!

General_Chaos wrote:While I wouldn't call Boyz the most versatile but I would call them the BEST Troops choice in the game! These are a troop choice you actually want to take over the mandatory two choice you have to take

Guard blob > Ork Horde??? This has to be a joke...

Go ahead and take Grots to hold that objective on Capture and Hold it's only one mission. If am playing seize ground I place all my objective on the same side at my opponents hoping they take that side cause that's where am going anyways.

Yes, guard blob can do the horde better. Give each sarge a PW, add in a priest (with Eviscerator), a commissar (with some CC gear, fist or sword) a Sister HQ with book (for effectively LD 9 or10 stubborn, that you can turn off). Have Straken near by and you get: A blob squad with 20+ guys, a bunch of armor ignoring attacks (including potential hidden powerfists). Counter attack and furious charge, a rerolled LD 10 stubborn, and righteous fury. You can buy a bunch of durable transports that have worthwhile weapons on them (effectively moving walls when you blob up, which is optional...)? Give them orders? Sure at minimum what I propose is about 300 points. (and can easily reach over 800) A 30 ork blob usually costs 200-250 if you give them the normal upgrades. Is the ork blob nearly as good as that guard blob? I think not.

Or you can put the objectives down spread out... so your strategy isn't controlled by your opponent. If you have capture and control, grots can move just a little bit foward, and objectives. As for the ones the enemy has better access too, that is what nobs are for.

As for calling the Ork boy the Best troop in the game... you don't actually look at other armies much do you? I've already explained why guard's troops are better. SMurfs get more durable and better armed guys that have effective transports (as opposed to the lol mobiles the boyz can buy). Nids have a bunch of specialized troops, who aren't role confused. Dark eldar can take skimmers with Lance weapons, have a lance weapon in the squad (and a choice of special weapons), or take a squad that has 2 heavy weapons and 2 special weapons. Witch Hunters get both cheap storm troopers and the cheapest power armor in the game on BS 4 models that can take 2 special weapons in a squad (and get transport options).

As for wanting to take more than just 2 units of boyz: I've only had this as a problem because of how much competition there is for the elite slots. Want shooting that doesn't suck? 3 units of Lootas. Looks like you can't take nobs unless you take a war boss, or kommandos at all. How do I get some CC ability back in? Maybe ork boyz can kind do the job?

notabot187 wrote:Yes, guard blob can do the horde better. Give each sarge a PW, add in a priest (with Eviscerator), a commissar (with some CC gear, fist or sword) a Sister HQ with book (for effectively LD 9 or10 stubborn, that you can turn off). Have Straken near by and you get: A blob squad with 20+ guys, a bunch of armor ignoring attacks (including potential hidden powerfists). Counter attack and furious charge, a rerolled LD 10 stubborn, and righteous fury. You can buy a bunch of durable transports that have worthwhile weapons on them (effectively moving walls when you blob up, which is optional...)? Give them orders? Sure at minimum what I propose is about 300 points. (and can easily reach over 800) A 30 ork blob usually costs 200-250 if you give them the normal upgrades. Is the ork blob nearly as good as that guard blob? I think not.

add in HQ's, transports, and allies... ok... now I could sit here and mathammer/theoryhammer this for you, break it down point for point, but I got the feeling its gunna be a waste of time. So you win... a Guardsmen can whip a Ork boyz ass

Yea the ork boys sucks...

I had fun with a 20 strong squad of Shoota Boyz today. While not considerd an optimal tourney list, I was still able to string out the squad to hold 2 out of 4 objectives while my opponent had to deal with the rest of my army. However, it was the 2 objectives I placed pretty close to the center of the table 12" apart...

Situational of course, but I've not found anything in any book that works 100% every time. Bad rolls can ruin any battleplan.

I run a really tough foot sloggin hoard that has only been defeated 3 times now, my strategy with objectives? place objectives near your opponents and rush, you killed my front line? theres a back one. wait, i took all those wounds and am no longer feerless? fine, the other 30-60 boyz will assault you next turn and annihilate you. tanks, seriously? fine, dreads with full DCCWs, big mek with KFF, and maybe some PK nobz for fun. why not take kanz? cause you can't run and shoot and i want to chop you to bitz now!!! add in the whole single group deffkopta deal and you have a recipe for victory.

So recap
-place objectives near opponents, if he splits, put them near 1

-rush, rush, rush (why I like slugga boyz footsloggin, because i'm not afraid to make them run instead of shoot)

-don't forget to take some big meks with KFFs

-Add more nobz as you see fit, but I like to take as many squads of boyz as possable (but i have 2 or 3 squads of 20 in front to soak up fire)

notabot187 wrote:

General_Chaos wrote:While I wouldn't call Boyz the most versatile but I would call them the BEST Troops choice in the game! These are a troop choice you actually want to take over the mandatory two choice you have to take

Guard blob > Ork Horde??? This has to be a joke...

Go ahead and take Grots to hold that objective on Capture and Hold it's only one mission. If am playing seize ground I place all my objective on the same side at my opponents hoping they take that side cause that's where am going anyways.

Yes, guard blob can do the horde better. Give each sarge a PW, add in a priest (with Eviscerator), a commissar (with some CC gear, fist or sword) a Sister HQ with book (for effectively LD 9 or10 stubborn, that you can turn off). Have Straken near by and you get: A blob squad with 20+ guys, a bunch of armor ignoring attacks (including potential hidden powerfists). Counter attack and furious charge, a rerolled LD 10 stubborn, and righteous fury. You can buy a bunch of durable transports that have worthwhile weapons on them (effectively moving walls when you blob up, which is optional...)? Give them orders? Sure at minimum what I propose is about 300 points. (and can easily reach over 800) A 30 ork blob usually costs 200-250 if you give them the normal upgrades. Is the ork blob nearly as good as that guard blob? I think not.

Or you can put the objectives down spread out... so your strategy isn't controlled by your opponent. If you have capture and control, grots can move just a little bit foward, and objectives. As for the ones the enemy has better access too, that is what nobs are for.

As for calling the Ork boy the Best troop in the game... you don't actually look at other armies much do you? I've already explained why guard's troops are better. SMurfs get more durable and better armed guys that have effective transports (as opposed to the lol mobiles the boyz can buy). Nids have a bunch of specialized troops, who aren't role confused. Dark eldar can take skimmers with Lance weapons, have a lance weapon in the squad (and a choice of special weapons), or take a squad that has 2 heavy weapons and 2 special weapons. Witch Hunters get both cheap storm troopers and the cheapest power armor in the game on BS 4 models that can take 2 special weapons in a squad (and get transport options).

As for wanting to take more than just 2 units of boyz: I've only had this as a problem because of how much competition there is for the elite slots. Want shooting that doesn't suck? 3 units of Lootas. Looks like you can't take nobs unless you take a war boss, or kommandos at all. How do I get some CC ability back in? Maybe ork boyz can kind do the job?

Here is where your argument fails, What you propose costs more points. In a game with a point system meant to keep balance if something costs more it will be better/more effective. That's the whole point of the point system (pun?).

Granted yeah your guardsmen there could beat out ork boyz but ork boyz cost 200-250, whereas yours costs 300-800, that is a SEVERE point difference.

The point is (Bonus points for whoever coints how many times I've said point/s) You win because it costs more points and that's the way this entire game is set up.

notabot187 wrote:Sure at minimum what I propose is about 300 points. (and can easily reach over 800) A 30 ork blob usually costs 200-250 if you give them the normal upgrades. Is the ork blob nearly as good as that guard blob?

Pardon me for quoting this when it's already been posted, but surely 300pts > 200pts? In fact, shouldn't 300pts of infantry unit be 50% better than 200pts of infantry unit?

What happens if the points values are equal?

A full mob of Ork Shoota Boyz armed with Stikkbombz and lead by a Nob with a Power Klaw is 245pts.

A Platoon of Imperial Guard Infantry composed of a Platoon Command Squad with a Flamethrower, and two Infantry Squads eaching including a Commissar with a Power Weapon, and a Sergeant with a Power Weapon is 245pts.

I'd bet on the Orks.

If you must have a unit for this, 2x minimum squads of grots will do the trick. Personally I stack my objectives as close to the enemies as possible, and turn 6 (if I haven't tabled) spread out with 1 or 2 of my mobs.

@ Nurglitch. I wouldn't, bearing in mind that if you are blobbing them then taking two Commissars is a waste of points (and as such can take some other upgrade instead) and if you aren't blobbing them then the Commissar is also a waste (as the squad is dead after a round of combat anyway). The biggest problem for the Orks is that no matter which way you do it its still 1 unit vs 2-3 units, which gives the Guard player a massive tactical advantage. For example they can send in one unit at a time to slow the Orks down and keep shooting till they are close enough to flame and finish off. Obviously in some fantasy world where all the units are instantly in combat then the Orks would probable come out on top, they are definitely one of the best troop units around but they aren't that flexible. Its a pointless debate in any case as you can't look at units in a vacuum like that and Guard have massively superior support units in pretty much every slot.

gregor_xenos wrote:

notabot187 wrote:...the fearless rule, is a huge liability in 5th ed with fearless wounds on 6+ save models. Great, not only did I lose more models (even though I won in points destroyed) I get to lose almost as many more?

I couldnt agree more! Fearless SUCKS!!! I managed to loose half of all three of my boyz mobz last tourney because of this freakin rule!
From now on, think Ill field Nobz and warbosses and go for the kill!!!

Ya, fearless sucks... I guess you could have it taken away, lose by 2, and have the other 20 boyz sweeping advanced. Might give you a new perspective.

The problem you guys are missing here, is when we say Ork boyz are the best troops choice, we are talking point for point. Period. Not using tactics and building a unit thats 100+ pts over a standard boyz mob. Thats not comparing properly. Point for point the boy is WAAAAAAY up there on the list. at 6 points, they have WS4 T4 S4 (on the charge)furious charge and can WAAAGH! to assault after running.

That is a bad thing for anything to take point for point. So you just add an Ork until whatever your paring them with until its about equal. So 3ish boyz per SM, ouch. I dunno what the normal guardsmen costs, but he will statistically miss half his shots, is weak, and sucks in CC. A boy can close the gap and be right on a guardsmen in no time flat, and will hulk smash him in CC


So yea, they are hardcore and arguably the best troops choice. After that, your talking tactics and player skill and crap you cant really use mathhammer to find a REAL answer. So make another thread if you want to bitch fest that one

I've decided to run some math on the ork boyz squads (I did this a long time ago for myself, when I still ran boyz). It takes 3 slugga boyz charging to kill about 1 Meq. A PK nob kills just under 2 models on average when it charges. A boy costs 6 points per model, or 18 points per dead meq. A PK nob costs 41 (as a unit upgrade, with no other options) Or 20.5 points per dead meq.

What does this tell us? Ork boyz are pretty efficient at killing meqs, but it takes a bunch of them to do real damage. Ork nobs aren't as efficient at doing this, but not that much worse.

Why does this matter: If you take large squads of boyz, the PK isn't required to actually kill infantry at all. Weight of numbers does the job for cheaper. If you take truk boyz... assaulting should kill 2-3 of them if you don't PK (assuming you take some losses before you swing, if you don't then you probably kill 4). So in this case it pays to PK, as you only get one chance to really do some damage.

So my conclusion was since ork boyz win with weight of numbers in large squads, and PK attacks are very important in truck boyz... I should run choppa boyz with PK nobs in truk and battle wagons. And give up the choppa for shootas in the big units and just march up the field shooting (with no nob). Ork horde units are slow, even with the Fleet move they get for one turn... terrain and random movement can do that. So why waste time chasing things when you could be shooting? 60 shots even at BS 2 is going to kill things. 20 hit, 10 wound, 3 failed saves. CC is fine for throw away truk boyz, or somewhat larger Wagon squads, but your big unit ends up losing the numbers require to do well in CC after a few rounds of shooting and going last in CC.

So with those mathhammer conclusions in had, I set up and played a bunch of 40k (30+ games with orks before going back to the drawing board). What did I learn from playing? Truks die turn 1, explosion kills nearly half guys inside unit is no longer fearless, is often pinned and is easy pickings even if not. Big blob squad inflicts some mild damage to some units, hurts some elite stuff even. Then it gets hit with multi templates of doom, or a REAL CC unit (like gene stealers or assault termies.) Nearly wiped out or wiped out inflicting only mild casualties. Hmmm. Why did this happen? Didn't bring enough? So I bring 150 foot slogging models. Deployment so crowded can't even move well. Army bunchs up, forced by terrain to come in waves (even the shooting, since 18 inch range means that in big units that the back ones often can't fire). Each wave wiped out. Well, that didn't work. What If I.... Give up on boyz, take nobs and gretchin as troops instead? With all the points and slots freed up, I bring more dangerous units, in larger quantities... I win a bunch of games.

Why is that? Nobs have a greater density of PK, which means they kill their targets quickly. So that means you don't have to take a huge unit to kill things. They have 2 wounds, can do wound allocation tricks, can get FNP, a 4+ armor, and a 5+ invul. So they will survive when they attack their target, and even weather the return fire if they get stranded after a combat or vehicle is destroyed. They can take battle wagons as dedicated transports... so they can take the best transport in the army without hurting the HS slots. My 5 unique model squad + warboss and wagon Costs 450 points... But they last longer than a truk boy squad, kill what they target, and aren't the slow liability that mobs can be. Grots do a fine job of scoring, for far cheaper than a boyz squad, and are far down on the threat list your opponent has to deal with.

For the price of 5 orks, you get 6 guardsman... but lets compare...

18" range is an Orks gun, but this is bumped up to 24" as it is an assault weapon. Matches the guardsman range.

An Ork can fire 2 shots from his gun, a guardsman has to 18" away to move 6" and then rapid fire.

Orks hit of 5s and wounds on 4s, while a guards man hits on 4s and wounds on 5s... matches the guardsman firepower...

However in assaults the Orks leap over the guardsman in terms of effectiveness, are hit by marines on 4s and are wounded on 4s. 20.83% death rate

A guards man is hit and wounded on 3s but saves on 5s... 29.63% death rate

After that is taken into account, an Ork shoota boy (on the charge) will have 25% chance of wounding a marine compared to the 16% represented by the guardsman. The 3 attacks on the charge for the Ork shoota boy means that 25% of the ork models still alive should kill a marine. While the 2 attacks for the guardsman means it would take 9 guardsman to take down a marine.

For the trade off of close combat, they are a point cheaper. For the trade off of slightly less range then an ork boy, they can be given orders to fire more shots.

notabot187 wrote:I've decided to run some math on the ork boyz squads (I did this a long time ago for myself, when I still ran boyz). It takes 3 slugga boyz charging to kill about 1 Meq. A PK nob kills just under 2 models on average when it charges. A boy costs 6 points per model, or 18 points per dead meq. A PK nob costs 41 (as a unit upgrade, with no other options) Or 20.5 points per dead meq.

What does this tell us? Ork boyz are pretty efficient at killing meqs, but it takes a bunch of them to do real damage. Ork nobs aren't as efficient at doing this, but not that much worse.

Why does this matter: If you take large squads of boyz, the PK isn't required to actually kill infantry at all. Weight of numbers does the job for cheaper. If you take truk boyz... assaulting should kill 2-3 of them if you don't PK (assuming you take some losses before you swing, if you don't then you probably kill 4). So in this case it pays to PK, as you only get one chance to really do some damage.

So my conclusion was since ork boyz win with weight of numbers in large squads, and PK attacks are very important in truck boyz... I should run choppa boyz with PK nobs in truk and battle wagons. And give up the choppa for shootas in the big units and just march up the field shooting (with no nob). Ork horde units are slow, even with the Fleet move they get for one turn... terrain and random movement can do that. So why waste time chasing things when you could be shooting? 60 shots even at BS 2 is going to kill things. 20 hit, 10 wound, 3 failed saves. CC is fine for throw away truk boyz, or somewhat larger Wagon squads, but your big unit ends up losing the numbers require to do well in CC after a few rounds of shooting and going last in CC.

So with those mathhammer conclusions in had, I set up and played a bunch of 40k (30+ games with orks before going back to the drawing board). What did I learn from playing? Truks die turn 1, explosion kills nearly half guys inside unit is no longer fearless, is often pinned and is easy pickings even if not. Big blob squad inflicts some mild damage to some units, hurts some elite stuff even. Then it gets hit with multi templates of doom, or a REAL CC unit (like gene stealers or assault termies.) Nearly wiped out or wiped out inflicting only mild casualties. Hmmm. Why did this happen? Didn't bring enough? So I bring 150 foot slogging models. Deployment so crowded can't even move well. Army bunchs up, forced by terrain to come in waves (even the shooting, since 18 inch range means that in big units that the back ones often can't fire). Each wave wiped out. Well, that didn't work. What If I.... Give up on boyz, take nobs and gretchin as troops instead? With all the points and slots freed up, I bring more dangerous units, in larger quantities... I win a bunch of games.

Why is that? Nobs have a greater density of PK, which means they kill their targets quickly. So that means you don't have to take a huge unit to kill things. They have 2 wounds, can do wound allocation tricks, can get FNP, a 4+ armor, and a 5+ invul. So they will survive when they attack their target, and even weather the return fire if they get stranded after a combat or vehicle is destroyed. They can take battle wagons as dedicated transports... so they can take the best transport in the army without hurting the HS slots. My 5 unique model squad + warboss and wagon Costs 450 points... But they last longer than a truk boy squad, kill what they target, and aren't the slow liability that mobs can be. Grots do a fine job of scoring, for far cheaper than a boyz squad, and are far down on the threat list your opponent has to deal with.

Yeah but 'ard boyz with Mad Dok Grotsnik get a 4+/5++ for cheaper/model than nobz and FNP and they can field more dudes.

Ork Boyz can answer back.

And do those dudes have multiple PKs? Or base S4? Or able to take combi weapons (like skorchas)? Or able to play wound tricks and last longer than their 13 wounds (including the warboss) would make you think? How about taking battle wagons without using heavy support slots. Can boyz do that? Taking mad doc means you have to follow the rules for him... which takes away some options on how to use that unit.

If you take a nob with the same war gear as an 'ard boy, with the FNP, the nob is going to cost 30 points, or 15 points per wound. His FNP is coming from a 50-55 point model. Those'ard boy costs 15 points (15 points per wound...) and its FNP costs 160. Nobs get +1 attack, but you can take twice as many 'ard boyz, so that comes out to be slightly in favor of the boyz. The nobs have +1 S, so at least they wound more often. So its a bit of a wash. Where the real problems come in comparing the units is the cost of the FNP on the Doc list is so much higher than the regular pain boy. As long as that nob unit keeps its upgrades and War boss cost under what its costs to field the mad doc, its actually a much better unit per point. If you take different wargear, you can take as many as 7 wounds without losing offensive potential (2 on warboss, and 5 on each nob). What happens when the 'ard boyz take 7 unsaved wounds? You lose over half the squad.

For fun I decided to point up what Cybork gretchin with the mad doc would cost. 300 points for 30 (with 3 grot prods) Threw in a big mek for some cover saves (KFF, 'eavy armor, cybork, PK). So that is 38 wound unit with a 5+ cover, 5+ invul, FNP rerollable LD, 9 base poisoned attacks, 7 base PK attacks. Total cost ~ 580 points.

Total cost per wound? Slightly higher than 15 points per model, including cost of all characters.

Grots can answer back.