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note: I don't have the chaos codex.

an opponent of mine, keeps running the following

-squad of chaos termies+ sorc in terminator armor
-All the termies have 4 attacks base (2 +1 from 2 claws, +1 from being chosen(?))
-They all have twin linked bolters, two have TL autocannons or somesuch
-the chaos sorc has warptime, that can be used every turn (even mine? and still while in close combat?)
-all the termies have a 4+ invulnerable save.

I understand that its a ton of points, but is all that legal together? it seems like there's too much "stuff" on one unit of guys...

Grundz wrote:note: I don't have the chaos codex.

an opponent of mine, keeps running the following

-squad of chaos termies+ sorc in terminator armor
-All the termies have 4 attacks base (2 +1 from 2 claws, +1 from being chosen(?))
-They all have twin linked bolters, two have TL autocannons or somesuch
-the chaos sorc has warptime, that can be used every turn (even mine? and still while in close combat?)
-all the termies have a 4+ invulnerable save.

I understand that its a ton of points, but is all that legal together? it seems like there's too much "stuff" on one unit of guys...

If you don't think it is legal, ask to see his codex.

We cannot give you rules wholesale.

What I can tell you is that:
1) Is legal.
2) Is incorrect. Any Number of Only one models (the Champion) will can have that many attacks if they are upgraded.
3) Is also incorrect (if by All you mean they have Two LC and a TL Bolter AND a Autocannon).
4) Is correct.
5) Is correct only if he takes a certain Icon of Chaos. And you cannot take more than one Icon.

He can onlyy have 4 attacks if they have the Mark of Khorne, and even then the Autocannon ones wouldn't get 4, as they would need 2 Lightning Claws. Also, he can only have 2 Autocannons if it was a 10 man unit.

So you're right, it isn't completly legal but most of it is.

and if they have mok they cant have 4++

2) Is incorrect. Only one model (the Champion) will have that many attacks, unless you take a certain Icon of Chaos.

Wrong, any number of terminators in the unit can be upgraded to champions.

Oscarius wrote:

2) Is incorrect. Only one model (the Champion) will have that many attacks, unless you take a certain Icon of Chaos.

Wrong, any number of terminators in the unit can be upgraded to champions.

You are indeed correct. I appologise. I misread the codex.

Need a bit of clarification.... How many termies? All have dual lightening claws?
as far as I can tell he needs a unit of 10 to run 2 reaper cannons. And he loses the TL Bolters on each model with dual LC.

helgrenze wrote:Need a bit of clarification.... How many termies? All have dual lightening claws?
as far as I can tell he needs a unit of 10 to run 2 reaper cannons. And he loses the TL Bolters on each model with dual LC.

all of them have 2 LC's, 8 have bolters as well, 2 have 4 shot autocannons., all have the extra attack, all have the 4++

4 shot autocannons??
they cant have both 4++ and 4 base attacks
and they lose bolter if they take claws

you have been cheated

They can't have dual claws AND a shooting weapon at the same time. Also, the Autocannons are 2 shot twin-linked, not 4 shot.
All can have an extra attack (From upgrading everyone to champions, veery expensive) and all can have the 4++ (From an Icon)

Ask to see his codex and point out to him that he can't have the shooting AND dual claws at the same time and that the auto's are twin-linked.

Devastator wrote:4 shot autocannons??
they cant have both 4++ and 4 base attacks
and they lose bolter if they take claws

you have been cheated

thats what I thought, thanks

for what its worth I did horribly maul the unit with 30 buffed gargoyles, but it didn't seem like it was legal, I quick thumbed through his codex but with all the icons, and champions, and such and mixing daemon types, and me being used to 2nd edition where you picked 1 god and stuck with it, I was a bit lost.

It /is/ legal to use warptime while locked in cc though?

Grundz wrote:It /is/ legal to use warptime while locked in cc though?

yes(it only affects the sorcerer) but remember he must re-roll EVERYTHING

btw awesome sig

Well, I can tell you this...

1) taking twin lightning claws you keep your twin liked bolters unless you replace them with a combi weapon.

2)Chosen can not take termie armor.

3) warp time takes place before any players turn. not in close combat.

4) Attaks are this Termies get 2 atts, +1 for LC, +1 att Mark of Khorne, so thats a total of 4 atts per basic termie in close combat only. at ranged attack its 2 attacks.

5)All Termies have a save of +2 save, +5 invulnerable save.

6) if its a full unit of termies (10) then yes you can take 2 reaper auto cannons.

Hope that helps...

Grundz: Warptime is allowed once per player turn, including when "stuck" in close combat.

And they CAN have 3 attacks + the LC bonus aswell as a 4++ at the same time. (Though you wrote it as 4 "base" which can confuse many)

EDIT: I'm a slow writer.

Devastator wrote:

Grundz wrote:It /is/ legal to use warptime while locked in cc though?

yes(it only affects the sorcerer) but remember he must re-roll EVERYTHING

btw awesome sig

Wrong.

The Sorceror may reroll rolls to wound and to hit.

It doesn't say he must reroll anything at all.

so now we have people claiming they both do, and don't keep the bolters/autocannon with the claws >.>

I'll have to get the codex it seems.

LordWynne wrote:
1) taking twin lightning claws you keep your twin liked bolters unless you replace them with a combi weapon.
2)Chosen can not take termie armor.

1 incorrect you replace your bolter if you take two claws
2 its probably champion upgrade

sorry for wrong stuff chaos termies can have 4 base attacks

edit i mixed doom and warptime

SaintHazard wrote:

Devastator wrote:

Grundz wrote:It /is/ legal to use warptime while locked in cc though?

yes(it only affects the sorcerer) but remember he must re-roll EVERYTHING

btw awesome sig

Wrong.

The Sorceror may reroll rolls to wound and to hit.

It doesn't say he must reroll anything at all.

'round and 'round!

Yes, the re-roll rules give an option to re-roll, but Warptime specifies the option is to re-roll all to hit and all to wound.
Other abilities state "all misses", "all failed", or just "re-roll to hit rolls" or "re-roll to wound".

There is often debate as to whether they meant to write that ability uniquely because it works uniquely or not.

No one that plays CSM reads it that way though, so you will rarely (never?) seee someone trying to play it that way.

"Any model may replace their twin-linked bolter and power weapon with a pair of lightning claws for X pts per model"

The above is the direct quote from the Chaos codex, edited only to remove the value of X.

Any model may be upgraded to a terminator champion; and that upgrade give the Champion 3 base attacks(then +1 for the pair of claws).

The only thing you got cheated on was the ranged attacks from the unit, everything else is perfectly legal.

KK is right.

2A basic, +1 for twin claws, +1 for champions.

Mark of Tzeentch improves their invulnerable save by +1.

Once you have two LC you have NO ranged attacks, and in addition the termies with Reaper autocannons CANNOT have twin LC.

Reaper autocannons are 2 shots, twin linked. Not 4 shots.

Warp time only affects the Sorc. Yes, the "may" allows you to reroll ONLY what you want to reroll.

I just want to chime in and say I disagree with Nos on the Warptime. It says you may reroll ALL rolls to hit or wound.

It does not say you may reroll SOME of them. It's all or nothing, RaW.

You MAY reroll ALL.

This combined with the reroll rules allows you to reroll any up to and including "all"

"All" and "any" have vastly different meanings in the 40k rulebook.

You MAY reroll ALL, like you said, is the wording in Codex: CSM. In other words, you may reroll all of them or none of them.

If it said you MAY reroll ANY, then you could reroll any number of hits or wounds.

If you use Warptime and want to reroll misses and/or failed wounds, you have to reroll ALL rolls to hit and/or ALL rolls to wound.

nosferatu1001 wrote:You MAY reroll ALL.
This combined with the reroll rules allows you to reroll any up to and including "all"

Read both rules, there's nothing in there that lets you take something as static as "reroll all dice" and turn it into "reroll the ones you want to"

thats like saying for my griffons I can reroll one of the distance dice if I feel like it.

"you may reroll the scatter dice" (same wording, i guess i can chose to only reroll some of them?)
"you may reroll ALL hit or wounds" (there's no wording that says i can chose to reroll anything less than all of them, unlike in other codexes or in the same one elsewhere) "may rereroll all failed hits or failed wounds"

Except the rules for rerolls which allow you to choose which ones you wish to reroll. Being allowed to reroll all means you can indeed reroll any and all of them.

nosferatu1001 wrote: Being allowed to reroll all means you can indeed reroll any and all of them.

We've been over this before, in depth. You're trying to take 'any' and 'all' to mean the same thing. The reroll rules allowing you to pick up the dice you want to reroll doesn't over-ride a specific rule telling you what you're allowed to reroll. As in every other case of apparent conflict in the rules, the more specific rule takes precedence. A rule telling you that you can reroll all the dice in a specific situation will therefore take precedence over a general rule for rerolls that tells you that you can choose which dice to reroll.

You are bound by the restrictions of the actual rule in question. Otherwise, you could just take the reroll rule to mean that you can always, at any time, choose to reroll whatever you like.


Additionally, as has been pointed out in the past, historically when GW have clarified rules over the 'any' or 'all' options, they have pretty consistently gone with 'all' meaning 'all or none' and 'any' meaning you can choose any number of them. 'All' members of a unit being allowed to take an upgrade, for example, meaning that they all take it, or none do.

Can I add the next step to the "What does Warptime do?" tango? Here goes...

The rule for Warptime states that the sorcerer can re-roll all rolls to hit and wound that turn.

Clearly, that means that at the end of the turn, the sorcerer is permitted to say, "Nope, now that I've seen all of the rolls, I'm going to choose to re-rol all rolls to hit and wound now" and it has to happen at the end of the turn since you can't re-roll dice that haven't been rolled yet, and you'd have to roll all of the dice before they can be re-rolled.

And this would be the correct interpretation because the army book's specific rule, specifying that the sorcerer can re-roll all of those rolls, trumps the general rule about re-rolling and the general principle that you can't re-roll something you didn't roll in the first place.

Who wants the part?

Couldnt it also mean that you could force ur opponet to reroll his hit/wound rolls. since it does say all rolls.

Not at all(or ever) the Rule clearly states the Sorcerer may reroll all to hit or damage.

So only the sorcerer does this.

Which also means technically the Model itself must do the rolling, but it is not a huge leap to allow the player to do it.

*puts the dice in the models hands* now roll em!