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So I fielded this list on the weekend:

HQ:
Chaplian

Troops 1:
6 Man Combat Squad
Heavy Bolter Razorback

Troops 2:
5 Man Combat Squad
Heavy Bolter Razorback

Elite:
Dreadnought Twin-Twin-Linked Autocannons

I was fighting a nurgle list:

HQ:
Sorcerer
Doombolt
Mark of Nurgle
Melta Bombs

Troops 1:
5 Plauge marines
2x Meltas
Rhino

Troops 2:
5 Plague Marines
Aspiring Champion
2x Plasmas
Melta Bombs
Rhino

I got my ass handed to me on a plate in 3/4 games and drew the 4th. My tactics were as good as they could be and the Dreadnought was the real star of the show, taking out both of his rhinos in almost every game and putting the hurt on his marines where possible. The troops SUCKED though, 3's to hit, 5's to wound then he had his 3+ and if he failed that 4+ FNP saves.

I had stupidly awesome rolls with the to hit and wound dice but I just couldn't take them down.

Where did I go wrong? What would you suggest I change? I tried to stay mobile with razorbacks to take the objectives and the heavy bolters on them proved the most useful, the troops just sucked though, I was getting beaten in shooting, beaten in hand to hand, just flogged all about the place. I have another two games against this list tomorrow and would like some advice.

Cheers

Jack

Well I kinda prefer having 10 man Tacticals. Yes expensive but it gives what they need, Special and Heavy Weapons. Bolter Marines probably did little to the plague marines who have T5 and FNP.

IIRC, space marines can take Plasma Guns in a squad w/ five marines. The AP 2 denies both the armor save and FNP. Maybe you could arm the dreadnought with a plasma cannon in place of one of the autocannons. Not sure how this would run points wise, but you could always downgrade to rhinos to compensate?

Not in the new rules unfortunately.

*if the squad numbers ten they may...(take an assault weapon)"

"if the squad numbers ten they may...(take a heavy weapon)"

I like the idea of taking large squads so I can get the special and heavy but at the cost of mobility in objective games is it worth while? We have a 500pt cap for this week then are up to 750pts next fortnight.

So I could run a chaplain and 2x 10man squads with plasma guns and plasma cannons for 490 total but no mobility.

My 750pt list looks like:

Librarian
Terminator Armour and Storm Shield.

Troops 1
10 Man Tactical squad,
plasma gun
plasma cannon
razorback with lascannon/twin-linked plasmagun.

Troops 2
10 Man Tactical squad,
plasma gun
plasma cannon
razorback with heavy bolter.

Elite:
Dreadnought, Twin-Twin-Linked Autocannons.

750 (possibly drop the terminator armour on the lib for another Lascannon/Twinlinked Plasmagun weapon upgrade on the razorback)

What do I do this week though, I got my asshammered, am I better footslogging it to have some more firepower against his plague marines?

Cheers guys

Jack

I have played Plague Marines a good amount. I would say for starters, high ap weapons are the way to go on them. I am actually pretty surpised that your dread did so well. Killing the rhinos isn't too suprising, but auto cannons are a pretty suboptimal weapon V plague marines. Still gets his armor save cause its ap 4, and still gets FNP cause its not S double T. Yeah you are wounding on 2s, but still if they are your main problem, you might be better of switching one of those auto cannons to a ML.

Also, I am a little confused as to how your list is organized. I assume you combat squad and put half the squad in the razorbacks? I also don't think its worth giving up the ability to fire out of your vehicles for a HB razorback. Personally, I hate heavy bolters. They never come that cheap for the SM army, and they aren't really that great at anything but killing weak troops you could have just killed with bolters or CC anyway. Another LC/PG setup would be nice.

Finally, Whats the battle plan with the plasma cannons? You were worried about losing mobility, and with a plasma cannon in each squad you are going to have to choose between moving and killing. Also, at such low points, you are putting 2 marines/squad at risk every turn you are firing. At higher points values it might not hurt you too much, but if you lose a guy to Gets Hot early at such low point values, you are really going to feel the pain.

Personally, I'd ditch the razorbacks and plasma weapons, take rhinos and meltas and fire out of them. Meltas are great for everything in your opponents list. Alternatively, keep the razorbacks but put LC/TL PG on both, just run them empty maybe. Then you have 2 10 man squads on foot, maybe give them a plasma gun and a lascannon or something. The biggest weakness of plague marines is that they have to be up close to do anything to you. Use that to your advantage and pound away at him from range. If you can stop his rhinos, he shouldn't really get a chance to sniff you from up close.

Nice one, thanks brother. I'm new to conventional SM and havn't got much of an idea for fit outs. Last army was all berserkers and DP.

Didnt see that you have a 500 point cap for this week. I'd definitely take at least one combi melta or plasma per squad of marines. That will give you some extra punch when he gets up close. I would also avoid CC as much as possible. The combination of FNP, T5, Defensive Grenades, and the Bolter/Bolt Pistol/CCW sleaze that started with the chaos codex makes them a troop that few can match in CC. Also, what powers are you taking on your Librarian? Avenger could do you pretty well. I would definitely ditch the Terminator armor and storm shield though. At range, he isn't going to be able to hit your Librarian unless you want him to take a wound and save a marines life, and he doesn't have any powerfists or anything for CC. Thats way too many points to spend on an HQ in such a low points game.

He does have a forceblade though and with no invulnerable save it was eating me aliive. Unfortunatly with his rhinos he was driving his guys up in quite an agressive manner and getting all up in my grill with those attacks.

In the 500pt games I actually ended up switching to a Chaplain because of the fearless rules and the invulnerable save he is rocking.

Good information though, cheers bloke.

Jack

I dont think you really need fearless since you already have combat tactics and ATSKNF

Auto cannon is a bit fail tbh.

The issue is that while you have 'volume of fire' he's got high t and AP weapons, you have no AP2/3 weapons at all!

Toughness can always be overcome but the armour is the clincher.

I'd put TL lascannon and missile launcher on your dred - krak rockets.

Take a tactical squad w/ missile launcher and melta gun. Split it into 2 5 man squads w/ razorback w/ lascannon. Give the sgt a power weapon. Stick the chaplain with this squad. blitz him with it. Be careful shooting the melta gun at enemy men - if he kills the wrong one you may not be able to assault.

The other 10 man squad - missile launcher or lascannon and plasma gun. Give the sgt a combi-plasma again split in rhino. These are fire support. Run up, jump out and rapidfire his azz.

Meanwhile dreddy, and the 2 x missiles/lascannosn are popping tanks or instagibbing dudes in the open.

I find that dread is too expensive in this cap for what it does... How about this?

HQ: 130
Captain (relic blade): 130

TROOPS: 255
5xscout (4xsniper, 1xML): 85
5xscout (4xsniper, 1xML): 85
5xscout (4xsniper, 1xML): 85

HEAVY SUPPORT: 115
Vindicator: 115

In 500pts, your anti-horde is taken care of, and you can pop down those transporters... Any MC will be blown away by snipers... And vindi can take care even of heavy armor...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Note that this isn't optimized agaist chaos, but vindi is death for them, also ml can be ok...

I played a similar list to this once. I play guard though. For what it's worth I took it apart with plasma and melta riding around in chimera's. My multilasers and HF's on Chimera's did absolutely nothing. my plasma and melta's shredded him. He popped one chimera, but was left looking at 4xplasma sitting in a crater with a 4+cover saver rapid firing.

I know marines can't do quite the same, but if you 10 man squads you can take a melta or plasma, and also give the sarge a plasma pistol right?

If you want to stick to 5 man squads you could do the razorbacks with twin linked plasma and a lascannon. Drop the Dread. Use the Lascannon Razorbacks to pop his transports, and the snipe with the twin linked plasma? use the extra points for It's a bit of a point sink, but you've gotta overcome that T5. Other option is 10 man squads in rhino's spewing plasma or melta.

I'm going to go with the Librarian tonight,

2x10 man Tac squads, Plasma guns and Multi Meltas and just slog it up to the objectives.

We will have the same range on one of his squads and the other squad will have a shorter range and will either take longer to get into range or come closer into rapid fire range for me.

I think I might give the original list of mine a burn tonight against the ork guy and see how it goes.

Thanks for the help guys, I see now where I was going wrong and I kinda do need to specialise a bit if I am to fight these hard bastards.

I've seen a fair amount of low-points space marine fail myself as of late. Universally, the problem they face is too many toys. In the case of low-point marines, this means any toys at all.

Have your 750 pt. list be 3 10-man tac squads with fist and melta and tell us if you have the same kinds of problems at this points level.

Yeah it's pretty hard to be loyal when you're so outgunned.. No wonder they turn to chaos.

Gods.. 'So you've got 2 options right; You can pick 4 mates, wear shiny colours to stand out on the battlefield, have no toys and no special abilities. OR come with us and you can pick 4 mates, make as many saves as you need until you get the right number, get cool mutations, every second bloke gets a plasma and you can live forever. You might get a bit of a belly and bad breath though..'

With small lists you want as much firepower as possible.

Don't try and go for expensive HQ because it's not worth it below 1000 points.

750 list for you to consider:

Librarian
Null Zone & The Avenger/Might of Ancients
100

TROOPS

Tactical Squad (5 man)
Sergeant: Combi-Melta & Powerfist
Razorback w/ T-L PLasma Gun & Lascannon
200

Tactical Squad (6 man)
Sergeant: Combi-Melta
Razorback w/ T-L Plasma Gun & Lascannon
175

Tactical Squad (6 man)
Sergeant: Combi-Melta
Razorback w/ T-L Plasma Gun & Lascannon
175

Scout Squad (5 man)
Heavy Bolter w/ Hellfire Shells
Camo Cloaks x 5
100

750 points

Hs plays 500pts...

oops ok....500 points

Librarian
Null Zone & The Avenger/Might of Ancients
100

TROOPS

Tactical Squad (5 man)
Sergeant: Combi-Melta & Powerfist
Razorback w/ T-L PLasma Gun & Lascannon
200

Scout Squad (5 man)
Missile Launcher
Camo Cloaks
100

Scout Squad (5 man)
Missile Launcher
Camo Cloaks
100

So, battle report:

I got in 3 games tonight, the first was up against those cheeky nurgle marines.

I went with:

Terminator Librarian (Had some spare points) with Storm shield.
2x10 man Tac squads with Plasmaguns and Multimeltas.

I won the first game without too much grief, he did come to me though as I sat my lads on the objective. Terminator Librarian did fk all but soaked up some plasma/melta/psyker shots for a turn and kept the heat of the lads.

The second game i tried another approach list wise against orks, and failed dismally, he had 50 boots on the ground, 4 power klaws and at me alive with WAAGH goodness and numbers. By turn 4 it was all over and I was wiped out.

The third battle was a 3 way between all of us with a central objective. The ork player sent the nobz, warboss and a big squad of shootaz over my way and pulled up 2" short on the WaAGH. Both squads then tore the Shootaz to pieces and the Librarian went after the Boss and Nobz solo to buy me some more time to manouver. He ended up taking out the boss and a nob in 2 rounds and survived everything they had to throw at him (2+/3+ is amazing!). My tac squads ended up moving around and on to the objectives to duke it out with the nurgle boys. At this stage though it wasn't looking goo as he still had a full strength force and I only managed to bring him down maybe 4 models before he took me out of play.

Good times, great to get more games under the belt now (thats 8 games of 5th edition for me!) and I look forward to going up to 750 next week to get some more boots on the ground.

Problem in small pts are horde armies, like nids and orks... You can field about 50 boyz + nobz and 20 marines can't take that out...
In 500pts having 2 full squads of tacs is a bad idea (as you could observe ).... You have to make your army more anti-horde... I'd make shooty scout sniper army with libby standing in them and one vindicator... Scouts would have ML... And if you take 3 scouts, vindi and libby... There is still place for 30pts this way...
So what I'm trying to say is:
Marines are great, and will do the job, but they MUST be supported... So if you don't have pts to support them (and you don't in 500, but there is room in 750) don't take them... Rather take snipers which will do their job from distance and something dedicated against hordes (landspeeders typhoons aren't bad, but I prefer vindi)... Only problem is if there are limitations like max AV, or similar...

Chinchilla wrote:You can field about 50 boyz + nobz and 20 marines can't take that out...

You CAN, it's just that you have to actually use your bolters, equip your men right, and not take toys. Bolter marines shouldn't have much of a problem against horde armies at this points level. It's when you waste points taking stuff specifically designed to kill harder targets that hordes have a field day with low point marines.

I managed to kill 60 boyz with 20 marines... But they were supported... If they have no support there is NO chance of pulling it off unless your opponent is noob.. Yes, you can take out entire mob, but if opponent has positioned his troops like he should, all of your marines are goners unless there is something behind you to help you... So having just 2 squads of marines against 50 orks is not so good idea...

in 500 points I usually takes this:

10 man tac squad and plasma gun 180
rhino 35

(combat squads - plasma squad gets the ride)

10 man tac squad and meltagun 175
rhino 35

(combat squads - melta squad gets the ride)

5 scouts 75
(Weapons depends on what you want to do with them)

but this is for "patrol missions" (Don't know if that is the correct name), so i don't have that mandatory HQ choice wich frees some points to invest in other things.

Sillyboy

Chinchilla wrote:I managed to kill 60 boyz with 20 marines... But they were supported...

Supported by what?

As previously stated. In small point games you s8imply can't field enough fire popwer to deal with most of the stuff out there. mariens shine in hight points games becasue of shear versatility. I hear alot of people say "ohh amriens are so easy to win with", in all honesty that isnt true in the slightest. You need to sit down and read your codex, and know theirs all by heart. Agaisnt the orcs, you need scouts with bolters and missles, backed up by a 10 man squad that you break down into combat sqiads so you get 2 5 man squads, put a melta gun in there give the srgt a power fist and a rhino, give the remiang 5 a missle and set them back. You goal in that game is sit back make bolter lines and brace for impact. Agaisnt nurgle lose the scouts take another 10 man tac same set up, lose the rhinos and take laserbaclks with plasma, if hes playing nurgle aggresivly let him leave some room between you and the objective melt his rhinos with the meltas and use your P. fist srg to take out the nurgle marines. as for hq a Captin is gonna do you the best. you can fanagle points around and give him a p. weapon or fist and send him onn his way. Marines are all about tacctics, thats why they run sucha wide aray of weaponry.

Ailaros wrote:

Chinchilla wrote:I managed to kill 60 boyz with 20 marines... But they were supported...

Supported by what?

By heavy weaponry... So that you break down opponents numbers before you flame orks to death (it wasn't them who killed 60, they took down half of that)...

Marines are deal-breakers... You use them for final hit... But there are few units that can be attacked with marines and die without dealing damage to unit... Trick is to use marines wisely and weaken the targeted unit, use rhinos to block any possible assault and to block los... If used efficient they are worth every pts you pay for them... But alone, I don't think so....

You're telling me that 15 scouts and a vindicator took down 40-50 ork boyz before they waaaaughed you? You were either very lucky or your opponent was very foolish.

It depends on deployment... If you stick 15 scouts on same hill you'll lose... But if you have big enough table, having 3 squads each on it's own side, you'll pick him apart... I play typhoons to take out infantry and light transports on 750 with marines... But vindi can do a lot too... Actually, I'd play single marine squad with libby and avanger, but the problem is that in 500pts, marines can't take much... And please don't tell me that 20 marines, who don't have good enough weapons since you have only 200 pts to spend per squad, can do so much... You can't even take full squads with rhino (since it is 205). And marine squad without heavy weapons and special weapons? Who will 9 marines manage to kill with bolters and pistol? They usually kill 5-6 orks... With flamer and avenger + if you put two squads on same target, they will do the job... But what then? Waagh and probably assault, and marines are goners... Sarge has no power weapons, so you have 9 normal attacks...

Only way to get enough marines on the field to take on hoardes:

Librarian
Avenger & Null Zone
100

TROOPS

Scout Squad (5 man)
Heavy Bolter w/ Hellfire Shells
85

Scout Squad (5 man)
Heavy Bolter w/ Hellfire Shells
85

Scout Squad (5 man)
Heavy Bolter w/ Missile Launcher
85

Scout Squad (5 man)
Missile Launcher
85

FAST ATTACK

Landspeeder
Heavy Flamer
Tornado Heavy Flamer
60

500 points

Against hoardes (especially tyranids) you have:

2 flamers
Avenger
16 bolters
1 Bolt Pistol
2 Heavy Bolters firing Hellfire Shells (blast, wound on 2+)
2 Missile Launchers (Str 8 or Str5 blast)

Infiltrate on everything but librarian and landspeeder.

Can librarian go in landspeeder?

For the same pts as your 20 scouts you can take 2 full tactical squads. I know what Id prefer.