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I'm looking for a cheap general purpose weapon to put on some Sentinels for outflanking goodness. Key targets will be transports, artillery or shooty squads.

Either one of these weapons really stand out as a superior choice? I'm leaning towards the Multi Laser just because its unique to IG.

Multilasers make me sad. I stopped feilding Dreadnaughts because they would always get popped by Multilasers before they could do anything.

No joke, My dreadnaught once survived 5 lascannons only to be shot and blown up by a multi laser

Run them both in the vehicle simhammer to see which performs better.
http://www.simhammer.com

I would go with the autocannon myself, as I like the way it can also be used vs MC, but they both have their perks.

Slarg232 wrote:No joke, My dreadnaught once survived 5 lascannons only to be shot and blown up by a multi laser

Not in 5th edition, though. Multilasers can't destroy AV12 anymore.

As for the OP, meh. Neither weapon is really all that great in single numbers. As such, if you're not taking the sentinel for it's firepower, then what are you taking it for? If it's to surprise someone with outflanking, a heavy flamer would be better. If it's to provide cover saves for vehicles behind it, then I guess I'd keep it as cheap as possible. If it's just going to be a throw-away unit, then why spend points on it?

Ailaros wrote:
As for the OP, meh. Neither weapon is really all that great in single numbers. As such, if you're not taking the sentinel for it's firepower, then what are you taking it for? If it's to surprise someone with outflanking, a heavy flamer would be better. If it's to provide cover saves for vehicles behind it, then I guess I'd keep it as cheap as possible. If it's just going to be a throw-away unit, then why spend points on it?

Well a large part of it is that I think the models are cool and they're cheap enough to incorporate into most lists fairly easily.

I'm thinking of 2-4 of them, depending on the other FA options I go with but most likely it will be a pair in a single squadron, so thats 4 S7 shots or 6 S6 shots, enough to knock out a Rhino or something of the sort which is all I'm really expecting of them.

If they are outflanking, then you can get side or rear shots on armor too, so suddenly that predator your shooting at is AV 11 or 10. That makes your weapons much more effective.

Just because you outflank does not mean you need to be close to the target either. You can keep the sent's on the edge of the board plucking at his rear armor.

If your using them specifically for transports THEN cleanup, go with the Autocannon, the S7 allows you to pop AV11 reliably, and even AV 12 is threatened if your out of targets. If your going more for infantry and the odd transport that crosses your path, then go with the multilaser for quantity of S6 shots. Either way if you kill either 3 marines or a transport you made your points back per sentinel.

I use multilasers with mine personally, its a good well-rounded weapon, unless I'm hunting transports, then I give it the Autocannon.

minigun762 wrote:I'm thinking of 2-4 of them, depending on the other FA options I go with but most likely it will be a pair in a single squadron, so thats 4 S7 shots or 6 S6 shots, enough to knock out a Rhino or something of the sort which is all I'm really expecting of them.

How loose are your tolerances? I mean, if you spend 100 points on sentinels and they don't destroy a rhino before they deliver their cargo that game, how upset will you be? I ask because 2 autocannon sentinels will kill a single rhino before they hit your lines only about every other game, and that's assuming you're always getting first turn (about once every 4 games if you always go second). The odds are even worse for a multilaser.

Personally, occasionally slightly slowing down some marines on occasion isn't worth spending going on 100 points EVERY GAME for. If the point is to do damage, then sentinels are a really poor way to go about it. Really, it's the sentinel's other roles that make it worth taking. If you don't want to use those roles, don't take sentinels.

I've had fun with both. if you have the 5 points, go with the AC. no matter which you use, or what you arm them with, i've always had people stop at least part of what ever grand battle plan they had come up with to deal with them. even if i rolled all 1's when the sentinels would shoot, they where devoting some element to deal with the perceived threat.
YMMV.

Technically you can destroy AV12 with a Multi-Laser. Cumulative Damaged results (Weapon Destroyed + Immobilized) will convert to Destroyed (Wrecked) results. You're still better off with the Autocannon though. Better range, hitting power, damage potential, and while we're on the topic of objective properties: cool.

Exactly. Having AV10 show up from out of nowhere and scare people, or having AV10 give a 4++ cover save to vehicles, or being able to tie up enemy light infantry in close combat don't require you to fire a shot. As such, giving them crappy firepower doesn't matter if you're taking the sentinels for these roles.

Of course, if you're wanting to spend spare points on something that will do damage...

I like outflanking them with autocannons and hunter killer missiles. This makes them a real pain for things like whirlwinds and other backfield artillery, one of the few times i will ever take missiles on a vehicle. Even if they are killed they will already have fired at vulnerable side armour.

If points are an issue i will just use the cheap multilaser loadout. Volume of fire will kill most light vehicles, and charging is suprisingly effective against any non combat units.

The autocannon isn't generally worth the 10pts to upgrade it, but the more AV 12 you see, the better it becomes.

And while Aillaros has a good point in that neither is great against vehicles, he's one of the few players I've seen to completely dismiss their value.

:-) I prefer the autocannon myself, but if points are tight the laser works ok... I have used the flamers and missile launcher as well... With the AC or missile launcher you get the 48" range to threaten things on the far side if you wind up coming out on the wrong side. Mind, I'm using them as light cav to run a flank and generally distract the opponent, if they actually kill stuff then great.

The problem I have with the autocannon is the number of ways IG can get autocannons in their list. Three Scouts with ACs runs, what, 135pts? That nets out to 3 S7hits a turn, when a Vendetta buys you reliably 2 S9 hits a turn. A HWS with three ACs runs 75pts, and at a pinch you can buy three Infantry squads with an AC each for only 180pts, which also gives you three scoring units and a ton of flashlights. And, as always, the hydra gives you the same firepower for only 75pts.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
By the same token, the heavy flamer is really a non-starter in my book. Any opponent that allows you to hit his soft squads with a heavy flamer mounted on an AV10 open topped walker is probably either not going to do so again, or isn't the sort of opponent you need to spend a lot of time building lists against.

Again, for outflanking squads that mess up light infantry, I recommend penal legion. They scout, they're stubborn, they do small amounts of damage, and they score. They're also fun to model and can help bubble wrap your tanks if you need it.

The missile and lascannon are both far too pricey for what you get to merit serious consideration. The Multi-laser allows a squad of Sentinels to be cheap, scout/outflank, and hassle infantry and light vehicles.

If I have the extra points and slots maybe. But as pointed out theres many other options like vendettas or hydras

For me, the Sentinels are a decent choice... In a pinch, they can shoot something up then actually engage it in HtH to tie it up... I've had mine at least tie up Dev squads, random basic Marines, Tau, Zoanthropes, etc... Don't have to kill it, just keep it out of the game for a while... Yes, it does rely on a bit of luck for the flanking move, but since I have a bunch of ancient "Death Chickens", it seems to work... Hydras are really nice for throwing out firepower, but really require a static placement, and mine at least seem to be major targets that get silenced quickly. I think of the Vendetta as a tank hunter mostly... So a different mission altogether.

Have to agree the Flamethrower is more of a "gimmick", but it still comes out for me on occasion and sometimes it really surprises the other guy... Tau especially seem to hate this configuration...

Its a sad thing scout sentinels cant take plasma cannons. You could really ruin someones day with 3 of those. Like seriously ruin someones day.

Heavy flamer is the adequate option for scout sentinels. But seeing your transport hunting, may as well take an autocannon. Multilasers are bad weapons. Useless against infantry, useless against tanks, not much better against MCs.

@Polonius

Hahaha, you kill me, man. I second your points.

In truth, the sentinel is so weak compared to the other amazing fast attack choices you have as an IG player.

I love variety though, so if you want to use them, go for it. Labmouse, that tool is bad ass.

Let's see.

If you take 3 sentinels and arm them all the same, you get:

105 for three with multi lasers.

hat gives you 4.5 strength 6 hits.

Against av10: 2.25 results on the damage table.
Against av11: 1.5 results on the damage table.
Against av12: 0.75 results on the damage table.
Against av13: Nothing.

So in practical terms with rough figures,

av10: glance and a punch
av11: glance and a punch
av12: glance
av13: Nothing.

Against tough 4 infantry:
3.75 wounds at ap6

real world: 4 wounds

For three with auto cannons you run 120 points.

That lands you 3 hits on average.

Against av10: 2 results on the damage table.
Against av11: 1.5 results on the damage table.
Against av12: 1 result on the damage table.
Against av13: .5 results on the damage table.

real world with rough figures:

av10: most likely two punches
av11: 50/50 for two punches or a glance and a punch
av12: 50/50 for a glance or a punch
av13: 50/50 for a glance

against tough 4 infantry:
2.5 wounds at ap4

Call it 3 wounds.

So, after analyzing the figures in a very rough fashion, it appears clear to me that the lower cost and greater damage output of the multilasers is the best choice in a 3 sentinel squad.

In a 1 or 2 sentinel squad, the bonus of the larger amount of shots of the multilaser is diminished.

Against av13 it is no contest, but then, if you need sentinels to kill av13, you are doing something wrong.

lastly to consider is range. 48" allows you to stay at a safe distance and shoot more so than 36" although 36" is usually sufficient.

For me, I would run three with multilasers as that appears from this breakdown to net you the most efficiency for the least amount of points.

I love my multilaser sentinels. I run 2x3 sentinels, 210 points, 2x9 s6 shots on the flank. Outflank, hit a side, and assault if able. 6s5 cc attacks dont suck either. The cost of upgrading the multilaser instantly makes it not worth it.

With 9 shots and 6s5 cc attacks I can fairly reliably kill backfield weapon squads or vees.

I think the hardest part about sentinels is the loss of being able to take them in other slots. The HQ sentinels of old would be great--troop sentinels even better. Anything competing against vendettas is gonna come up short in the fast attack slot sadly.

@ Reecius

thanks for spelling out the math, I currently run 2 with AC might have to think about switching them to Multi lasers. Main reason I take AC is because it hought it would more reliably penertrate AV10.

I use mine as spare points which outflank and be a nuisance....thus I use it bare....

Don't forget the sentinel can assault, and thus it may surprise a non-moving tank sitting back near the sides...2 S5 autohits vs rear armor 10 may cause nasty surprises sometimes...

The funny thing is that players simply do not like any enemy unit in their firebase...and the sentinel thus gets a disproportionate of firepower just to get rid of it, or nothing at all...

If you use it together with alrahem's outflanking platoon, the sentinel can provide interference too, and mobile fire support...

A vendetta can zap 1.9 marines dead at crazy range. 3 autocannon sentinels for slightly less can only kill 0.8 marines.

Against vehicles, 2 S9 hits versus 3 S7 hits is no question.

Against monstrous creatures, vendetta putting out way more than twice as much damage as the 3 autocannon scouts.

Open-topped AV10 walkers that are destroyed on Immobilized result seem too fragile to me. A glance roll of a 5 or 6 destroys it (where a normal vehicle isn't hurt by glance.) A pen roll of 3, 4, 5, or 6 destroys a sentinel in the squad due to open-topped.

So enemy autocannons pen. scout 3x more often, 2x as much damage each time, glance the same but 1/3 glances are lethal.

As you can see, they're pretty much the easiest vehicle possible to kill. Even a basic chimera is more survivable (and fields a multilaser) plus it can be a scoring unit with troops taking advantage of the 5 shooting spots.

A distraction is only effective if the object is likely to kill something. Killing 0.8 marines per turn for 120 point squad is probably not that good. Especially since 10 basic marines rapid-firing would kill 0.75 sentinels per turn, weapon destroy 0.37 sentinels, and stop 0.37 sentinels from shooting next turn. Those aren't anti-tankers, those are regular marines.

I use regular sentinels...and always singly.....

Its not what they actually kill, but the effect the sentinel achieves...

I have used a single sentinel a lot, and it doesn't have to kill to be effective. Picking the right target is key..for example..immobilizing or causing a weapon destroyed on a vindicator is a great result already....the single sentinel has also immobilized/destroyed eldar skimmers, as the sentinel managed to shoot at the rear armor...

The nice thing is that a single sentinel is quite a small target which can enter buildings and ruins, and it's not hard to find cover for the sentinel. In some games the sentinel has survived till the end of the game, immobilized and weaponless, but alive nonetheless.

I would vote for autocannons, possibly adding HK missiles. Better range, just about as good against AV10-11, better against AV12 which will be an issue sometimes. But as polonius justly points out, some other choices, like vendettas, fulfill the same outflanking role better. As a matter of fact you could even take creed and have the option to outflank hydras!

My regular IG opponent fields AC Sentinels against both my marines and my nids. In all honesty they seem effective against my marines (until they get wiped out which is all too easy to do in most cases) but against the nids they don't tend to survive long enough to do enough damage to make them worthwhile (noting that we only play 750 point armies on 5th ed and 1200 points on 4th so they to draw a fair bit of fire in more recent games).

If you're outflanking with them then you don't really need the strength available with an AC, as mentioned above you'll more than likely be facing side or rear armours and shooty infantry that probably wont have much toughness anyway, the only thing to worry about then is the poor AP value. Against horde armies or shooty opponents the multilaser seems good enough if you're flanking. If you're going to deploy them with the bulk of your army then ACs are probably the way to go if you're looking to tank hunt. Have you considered magnetizing the models so that you can more easily tailor them to different opponents?

Sentinels are not effective for me so far, nevertheless I have fielded them in so few games to form some sort of trend. Anyway, if it were up to me, field them in three's that seems to add some more punch to their rather lack luster stats.

Autocannon is a good choice if you're hunting trukks, I tested them on simhammer and the autocannon destroys 13% while the multi-laser destroys 9,6%.

Hmm I gotta say I'm surprised, I thought they'd be better then that.

Sounds like its time to go shopping for a Vendetta.

Ailaros wrote:How loose are your tolerances? I mean, if you spend 100 points on sentinels and they don't destroy a rhino before they deliver their cargo that game, how upset will you be?

This is one of the things I think you consistently fail to understand. The Rhino does not *need* to be destroyed. Immobilising or stunning is just as good, as it effectively shuts the transport down for a turn. This allows the rest of your units at the very least a turn to position themselves effectively. Destroying is obvously better, but when you understand, and accept that, simply preventing movement for a transport is as important as outright destroying it, you'll be much more effective at proritising your targets.

Ailaros wrote:I ask because 2 autocannon sentinels will kill a single rhino before they hit your lines only about every other game, and that's assuming you're always getting first turn (about once every 4 games if you always go second). The odds are even worse for a multilaser.

Again, your looking at only destroying the Rhino. Simply preventing it from moving would more than make the Sentinels (tactically) pay for themselves.

Ailaros wrote:Personally, occasionally slightly slowing down some marines on occasion isn't worth spending going on 100 points EVERY GAME for. If the point is to do damage, then sentinels are a really poor way to go about it. Really, it's the sentinel's other roles that make it worth taking. If you don't want to use those roles, don't take sentinels.

Define 'occasionally'. 2-3 AC Sentinels shooting at side (or front) armour will prevent movement more than 50% of the time. Refer to my statements above as to why this is beneficial.

To answer the OPs question, I would choose AC every time. The +1 S is hugely important in the mech-heavy world that we live in and the extra range is also beneficial, forcing the opponent to either risk getting his rear armour riddled with holes, or dedicating some of his forces to deal with your Sentinels, either way your Sentinels are achieving their goals.

L. Wrex