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Israel's military broke international laws during its raid on a Gaza-bound aid flotilla, a UN Human Rights Council investigation says.

The three-member panel said the Israeli commandoes' response to the flotilla was "disproportionate" and "betrayed an unacceptable level of brutality"

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-11393836

that whole operation was a fiasco. I dont know about you all but Im tired of how the jews hijack american politics. We ought to ask ourselves what we're getting out of our alliance with israel. Seems to me like it helps them more than it helps us. AF

I believe the commandos on this one. I am also of the opinion that if you try to run another country's blockade you shouldn't be surprised whan something bad happens to you.

well of course they werent surprised. getting the isrealis to over-react was the point. like morons the isrealis obliged them and made an international incident out of it. if anyone in that govt had a clue they would have used watercannon sound guns etc.
AF

Monster Rain wrote:I believe the commandos on this one. I am also of the opinion that if you try to run another country's blockade you shouldn't be surprised whan something bad happens to you.

I can generally agree with this, Running a blockade when you've been told they'll stop you is really stupid. But I can also agree that Israel has a habit of being very heavy handed. Whenever I hear about some military action conducted by Israel its usually in horribly disperportionate force.

Running a blockade in International Waters is not a crime. Israel had no legal right to do what they did where they did.

But that's Israel for you. Call them a name, and they'll shoot your dog. Shoot their Dog, and they'll bulldoze your street. Always over reeacting, always claiming anti-semitism when someone tries to stand up to them. It's pathetic if you ask me.

Yes. It is. If I were a palestinian I would be fighting too. To hell with the israelis.

We should just build a big fence around the middle east, and keep them from bothering us.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:well of course they werent surprised. getting the isrealis to over-react was the point. like morons the isrealis obliged them and made an international incident out of it. if anyone in that govt had a clue they would have used watercannon sound guns etc.
AF

Patient: It hurts when I do this.

Doctor: Don't do that.

isreal didnt need to kill anyone to stop that fleet. not that their blockade is legal or justified anyway.

I think Israel should simply be nuked, and to hell with the 'holy land' bullsh**. Religion is a curse on the human race anyway.

MasterDRD wrote:I think Israel should simply be nuked, and to hell with the 'holy land' bullsh**. Religion is a curse on the human race anyway.

Real classy.

I hear lots of people say that, but I don't think they think it through very well.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:isreal didnt need to kill anyone to stop that fleet. not that their blockade is legal or justified anyway.

They say they had reason to fire.

For me the question is how Israel let this thing get so messed up. If they had done this operation correctly, not gotten their commandos swamped by pipe wielding activists, they would have been able to stop the boat, turn it around, no PR win for their enemies.

I'm assuming they just totally underestimated what was going to happen when they hit the decks, but it seems strange that they'd really have NO idea. I mean, they didn't have a SINGLE operative on the boat? The thing was FULL of people. They didn't have anybody who could notify them that there were dudes waiting with pipes to attack boarders? They didn't have any contingency plan, besides "fight for your life?"

Whatever though. People want to make this into a big "Israel is evil" thing. Both sides are pretty crap. The only noteworthy part of this thing is how bad Israel botched the operation.

For me the question is how Israel let this thing get so messed up. If they had done this operation correctly, not gotten their commandos swamped by pipe wielding activists, they would have been able to stop the boat, turn it around, no PR win for their enemies.

I'm assuming they just totally underestimated what was going to happen when they hit the decks, but it seems strange that they'd really have NO idea. I mean, they didn't have a SINGLE operative on the boat? The thing was FULL of people. They didn't have anybody who could notify them that there were dudes waiting with pipes to attack boarders? They didn't have any contingency plan, besides "fight for your life?"

I think it's more telling that they went ahead with the operation despite the fact that there was clearly a large number of people on the boat deck. They fast-roped into a mob. This was a failure at absolutely every level, and it's something they should be embarrassed about for quite a long time.

Whatever though. People want to make this into a big "Israel is evil" thing. Both sides are pretty crap. The only noteworthy part of this thing is how bad Israel botched the operation.

That and the questionable legality of their blockade, as well as the disgusting lengths they go to keep the palestinian people in abject poverty. The noteworthy part is that this became newsworthy and painted them as the oppressors when they have traditionally enjoyed the spotlight as the plucky tiny country surrounded by evil. That image didn't survive this too well.

I don't know.

I think it's easy to sit in judgment from our relative safety in the West, but I bet you'd see Israel's point of view a little better if you'd lived with the reality of indiscriminate rocket fire and suicide bombers for a decade or two. Or three.

I'd have more sympathy for the Israelis if it seemed like they were unable to establish themselves anywhere else. But the reality appears to be quite the opposite; they very specifically wanted that one piece of land, for religious/cultural reasons, and some random island or other stretch of land wouldn't be worth trying to establish a new nation on at all.

Monster Rain wrote:I don't know.

I think it's easy to sit in judgment from our relative safety in the West, but I bet you'd see Israel's point of view a little better if you'd lived with the reality of indiscriminate rocket fire and suicide bombers for a decade or two. Or three.

They've lost like 27 people to that rocket fire in the last decade. It's a smoke screen for western press coverage, they are in no danger. They also have no interest in peace talks. Israel wants palestine, it doesn't want "safety".

ShumaGorath wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:I don't know.

I think it's easy to sit in judgment from our relative safety in the West, but I bet you'd see Israel's point of view a little better if you'd lived with the reality of indiscriminate rocket fire and suicide bombers for a decade or two. Or three.

They've lost like 27 people to that rocket fire in the last decade.

Listen to yourself.

That's exactly what I'm talking about. I suppose you'd be that nonchalant about it if it was people from your neighborhood then?

Policy is one thing, but there are real people over there dealing with some real gak.

I'm sure there have been more Americans killed by the Mexican drug cartels than Israelis killed by Palestinian rockets. Should we annex Mexico? Kill a few thousand people in the process? There gets to be a point where levels of reprisal are simply not justifiable.

Orkeosaurus wrote:I'm sure there have been more Americans killed by the Mexican drug cartels than Israelis killed by Palestinian rockets. Should we annex Mexico? Kill a few thousand people in the process? There gets to be a point where levels of reprisal are simply not justifiable.

If you're asking whether I think the US should do something about the situation in Mexico, at least on our border, the answer is yes.

Monster Rain wrote:

Orkeosaurus wrote:I'm sure there have been more Americans killed by the Mexican drug cartels than Israelis killed by Palestinian rockets. Should we annex Mexico? Kill a few thousand people in the process? There gets to be a point where levels of reprisal are simply not justifiable.

If you're asking whether I think the US should do something about the situation in Mexico, at least on our border, the answer is yes.

Is that answer to raid and kill people on aid flotillas after we spend years keeping mexico under relative siege keeping out items like cloth and meat? Or is this one of those situations where because israel lost 27 people it's totally cool that they've killed over 1,200 in reprisal while intentionally starving those people and bulldozing their homes?

Lets flip that question. Palestine is being slowly subsumed by israel while it's people are forcibly relocated and intentionally impoverished (and killed). When is it ok for palestine to "fight back"?

Monster Rain wrote:

AbaddonFidelis wrote:isreal didnt need to kill anyone to stop that fleet. not that their blockade is legal or justified anyway.

They say they had reason to fire.

well I guess its ok to kill a dozen people.... as long as they had a reason.

No, I'm asking if it should be annexed and blockaded. Building a fence on the American-Mexican border wouldn't even come close to the security measures Israel takes with Palestine. The difference is a very important one, if we're discussing whether Israel's actions are proportionate to the threat against them, rather than merely discussing whether they should respond to threats against them in some fashion (it's obvious that they should).

::EDIT:: Oops, Shuma beat me to it.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:

AbaddonFidelis wrote:isreal didnt need to kill anyone to stop that fleet. not that their blockade is legal or justified anyway.

They say they had reason to fire.

well I guess its ok to kill a dozen people.... as long as they had a reason.

It is actually. Question is was it a good reason? I'm leaning towards not

The real thing about the Isrealis is that they are basically foreign occupiers backed by the west. They're like the french in vietnam or the British in India. They have no right to that land. They stole it from other people at the point of a gun. If that kind of thing happened here I'd be fighting too. I don't have any sympathy for the Isrealis. They're foreign, colonial occupiers of other peoples land.
AF

AbaddonFidelis wrote:that whole operation was a fiasco. I dont know about you all but Im tired of how the jews hijack american politics. We ought to ask ourselves what we're getting out of our alliance with israel. Seems to me like it helps them more than it helps us. AF

Your avatar has never been more appropriate.

lol

AbaddonFidelis wrote:The real thing about the Isrealis is that they are basically foreign occupiers backed by the west.

They're not really foreign occupiers. The UK gave them that land, which at the time was technically British owned.

They're like the french in vietnam or the British in India.

Last I checked, Israel isn't a colony of an imperial power that is exploited for that powers gain. If anything it's the opposite.

They have no right to that land. They stole it from other people at the point of a gun.

The British gave it to them because they kept asking for it and Britain was tired of the Palestinians being rebellious /exageration

The noteworthy part is that this became newsworthy and painted them as the oppressors when they have traditionally enjoyed the spotlight as the plucky tiny country surrounded by evil. That image didn't survive this too well.

It survived it just fine in the communities where that image is favored.

This incident doesn't really change much of anything. There is some feeling that Israel is "slipping" and isn't the ruthlessly efficient machine it once was. This certainly helped that idea along. But as far as "who's the victim" this changes nothing. Some people back Israel, some back Palestine. The polls on that issue were not changed by this incident.

It's a smoke screen for western press coverage, they are in no danger.

No, they're in very real danger, just not from rocket attacks. There is some truth to their assertion that if they let their guard down, they will be attacked. It's not nearly as dire as they suggest, and some might suggest it's their own fault, but they do have a lot of people gunning for them.

The possibility of them getting attacked with a nuclear weapon is much MUCH higher than virtually any other nation on earth. They're not in NO danger.

I realize that you don't mean they're in NO danger. Everyone is in SOME danger at all times. And I agree with what I think your sentiment is, which is that they're greatly exaggerating their own peril. Unfortunately, by doing the same thing in the reverse, you're playing the same rhetorical game they are, which is equally unhelpful and inaccurate.

The British gave it to them because they kept asking for it and Britain was tired of the Palestinians being rebellious /exageration

That, and the fact that the Zionists were waging an insurgency against the British, and blowing them up. It wasn't exactly 'at the point of a gun' so much as 'within the blast radius of a bomb,' but whatever.