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In response to OP.

I think the response to the topic of this thread if it was a newspaper headline would be:
"Israel decides to ignore UN findings".

The only thing Israel did wrong on a geopolitical level was go in too early, if they had waited until they were in Israeli waters they could have sunk the buggers.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:well of course they werent surprised. getting the isrealis to over-react was the point. like morons the isrealis obliged them and made an international incident out of it. if anyone in that govt had a clue they would have used watercannon sound guns etc.
AF

No they would have used torpedoes and sunk them. Maybe they'll learn next time.


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Monster Rain wrote:

Orkeosaurus wrote:I'm sure there have been more Americans killed by the Mexican drug cartels than Israelis killed by Palestinian rockets. Should we annex Mexico? Kill a few thousand people in the process? There gets to be a point where levels of reprisal are simply not justifiable.

If you're asking whether I think the US should do something about the situation in Mexico, at least on our border, the answer is yes.

We invaded Mexico for that before. We may have to do it again.

ummmm.... no.... the US directly after the revolution was not heavily dependent on support from france. where do you get this stuff from? honestly? I mean you talk about reading history alot but as near as I can tell you dont know anything about it.

So you fail at US history too? It was one of the reasons for the war with the Barbary States. The US had no ability during or directly after the revolution to defend its shipping and had a treaty with France that obligated them to defend US ships. For a decade we were completely dependent on France for our survival.

What you've said about India is true but doesnt have anything to do with anything. Did you know that?
Virginia was governed directly by the British govt for the majority of its history.

So you don't know anything about US history? Not surprising... After the Virginia company was dissolved, surprise surprise, the crown took over and it was still a colony! Subject to rule by the king. It remained that way until the Revolution.

Massachusetts was never run by a company.

And you're saying I don't know anything? Wikipedia yey!. The English used this model for much of their early colonization before dissolving or revoking charters and taking direct control of colonies themselves rather than handing the power down to enterprises. This was called Charter Colonization.

Read a history book.

the american revolution was not the result of the revocation of the charter of the Virginia, Massachusetts, or any other colony.
You plainly do not know what you are talking about.

The Revolution was a direct result of royal rule, but it would take a whole page to discuss the unique circumstances that created the Revolution. Enlightenment. 16th-17th Century England. Protestant Reformation. Go read up on some of that stuff. And refresh your US history.

A militia is a military organization and it was administered by the state. It fit the criteria you provided.

No. A militia is not a standing military. See what a militia is.

ok well lets just stick to what I actually said ok? it's no secret that there is a powerful jewish lobby in this country. I'm not making that up.

What's its name? Who is in it? Sorry. THe Jewish lobby conspiracy has been proven false. Try studying political science instead of spouting off.

That's all I can honestly think after reading this thread. My face is actually in the palm of one of my hands as I type this.
Again for effect.



In this thread, I've read people advocating the nuking of Israel, the removal of the 'Jews' back to wherever they came from, due to the fact that they are 'colonial oppressors'. Israel has been accused of being controlled completely by the US, and of desiring to commit mass genocide on every single Palestinian if they got the chance.

And those are just the things that really jumped out. There was far more minor stuff I'm not even raising.

I want to post, and make a constructive, well thought out rebuttal to the amount of stupidity, ill informed statements, and general 'fail'(to quote) in this thread. But I actually don't know where to begin. I'm actually speechless. Congratulations OT forum. My brain has finally overloaded due to the amount of fake conjecture, statement of opinion as fact, and simple retardedness that this thread possesses.

This forum has hit a new low.

Waaagh_Gonads wrote:In response to OP.

I think the response to the topic of this thread if it was a newspaper headline would be:
"Israel decides to ignore UN findings".

The only thing Israel did wrong on a geopolitical level was go in too early, if they had waited until they were in Israeli waters they could have sunk the buggers.

You're making the assumption that the problem is with the legality of when they enforced the blockade. That makes no sense. Strangely enough, people's decision making is based on more than the specifics of maritime law.

What really matters is the actual nature of blockade, and Israel's willingness to use deadly force to enforce that blockade.

Ketara wrote:

That's all I can honestly think after reading this thread. My face is actually in the palm of one of my hands as I type this.
Again for effect.



In this thread, I've read people advocating the nuking of Israel, the removal of the 'Jews' back to wherever they came from, due to the fact that they are 'colonial oppressors'. Israel has been accused of being controlled completely by the US, and of desiring to commit mass genocide on every single Palestinian if they got the chance.

And those are just the things that really jumped out. There was far more minor stuff I'm not even raising.

I want to post, and make a constructive, well thought out rebuttal to the amount of stupidity, ill informed statements, and general 'fail'(to quote) in this thread. But I actually don't know where to begin. I'm actually speechless. Congratulations OT forum. My brain has finally overloaded due to the amount of fake conjecture, statement of opinion as fact, and simple retardedness that this thread possesses.

This forum has hit a new low.

no u

Phryxis wrote:

a body of people living in a new territory but retaining ties to the parent state

There several problems.

First off "the west" is not a state. It's a moniker often used to describe a vaguely defined group of first world nations.

ok. but it is a group of states. Russia Germany France the USA etc.

Phryxis wrote:
Second, the state is described as a "parent," which is verbiage you repeated in order to describe Israel as a "child" or "client" state. This is how colonies are generally understood to operate, and is completely inapplicable to Israel, which is an exceedingly independant minded state.

they cant act without us. they are dependent on our political protection, on our military alliance (they cant manufacture alot of their own hardware - we sell it to them at knock down prices) and on our trade. If we stopped supporting them they could never last, and they know it. I think that disqualifies them as independent.

Phryxis wrote:
Third, the definition itself is uselessly vague in this discussion.

then provide another and we'll talk about that one. I'm not opposed to looking at other definitions. I'm just opposed to making them up.

Phryxis wrote:
It could just as well describe, for example, Somali immigrants living in the United States, who send money back home. Is there a Somali "colony" in the United States? By the provided definition, yes. But that's not really how the word is used.

yes, there is a somali colony in the united states. It's not how you're used to using the word, but according to that definition it is not a wrong use. Colony has a broader meaning than just the ways we're used to thinking about it - like the British in Africa or in North America. I recognize that we're not used to applying it to Isreal but I think that has more to do with habit than anything else.

Phryxis wrote:
I think it's probably no coincidence that you chose dictionary entries that were as vague as possible, rather than something like this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colony

"In politics and history, a colony is a territory under the immediate political control of a state."

Immediate political control is not present with Israel. The fact that you keep trying to allege that there is that sort of control suggests that you KNOW the actual definition, even as you look for softer, vaguer ones that don't undermine your argument as immediately.

so....because the dictionary agrees with me.....I'm dishonest? I'm really sorry you look at it that way. Imagine how it looks to me when you all dont have any definition at all, you just flatly assert, on your own authority, that isreal isnt a colony. well anyway I'm glad to talk about colony under other definitions.

from the same article: The term "informal colony" is used by some historians to describe a country which is under the de facto control of another state, although this description is often contentious.
which is our relationship with Isreal. perhaps satellite state would have been a better description. from that wikipedia article:
A satellite state (sometimes referred to as a client state) is a political term that refers to a country that is formally independent, but under heavy influence or control by another country....A satellite state is a country that is dominated politically and economically by another nation.
Do you think we dominate Isreal politically and economically? please say yes.

I think colony is particularly apt as a description because most Isrealis are 1st or 2nd generation immigrants. that is, they come from somewhere else. Also, since you all seem to be stuck on the 19th century context of that word, reflect that Isrealis are westerners with access to high technology who are surrounded by a numerically superior but technologically inferior, hostile, darker skinned group of people. It's really not all that different than English operations in India or in Africa.
AF


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Sebster
sure the Isrealis want peace. on the basis of continued injustice. a second state or political freedom and full equality before the law are just too scary for them. well thats what it would take, so if they cant be serious they get no peace. I dont disagree that theyre genuinely tired of the situation. but theyre not willing to make the concessions necessary to make it go away, so they kind of deserve what they get.

it would be ideal if the jews living in that area had not created this situation. If someone commits a crime and they are punished by the police, both actions have an element of force but they are not morally equivalent. what the criminal did was a crime. what the police did was justice. force is necessary in order to create justice. So ideally yes the Isrealis would atone for their crime by leaving the area. That would be a good first step. I recognize that analogies about personal morality dont tell the full story, but I think that morality is applicable to groups as well as to individuals. We at least should recognize that. Acting under the protection of the law does not make a persons actions right. There needs to be accountability to something more than that.

I'd like to point out also that if we're against forcing people off of their land, but we aren't in favor of restoring that land to the people it was taken from, then it follows that we're favoring aggressors over the victims of aggression. Under that system any group that can defeat its rival and set up a new status quo now has the right to the land because it would be too hard for them to go back to where they came from. Basically you're just legitimizing armed conquest. Well that's the whole problem. Yes the Isrealis took the land yes they have it now; it doesnt follow that they should be allowed to keep it.

It matters more than the people from a thousand years ago because those people are dead and nothing we can do will effect how their lives turned out. but we can effect the living. so the palestinians and their children, who have been directly affected - those people we can and should help.

I tend to think that the rocket attacks and bombings would stop if the Palestinians could vote in Isreali elections.
Its not that relations would be great between the jews and palestinians; but it would be a start. If the palestinians tried to turn the apparatus of state against the Jews then it would be our obligation to help the jews. But if the Isrealis cant admit the palestinians to full citizenship and equality because theyre terrified of being swamped by a sea of brown people, then they should, as you say, recognize Palestine as a sovereign state.

Getting the jews to give anything like justice to the palestinians is crazy difficult. They want peace, but they dont want to do whats necessary to make it. Therefore the Palestinians resist. I hope they continue to make trouble for Isreal, because politically thats the only way you get things done. No one in Isreal or in the rest of the world would care 1 way or another about the Palestinians if it werent for the rocket attacks. Their choice is either to use those rockets or to be forgotten about entirely. Well under the circumstances I think rocket attacks are fair. There just isnt any alternative for people seeking justice at the hands of a state that would just a soon kill them as look at them.
AF

AbaddonFidelis wrote:so....because the dictionary agrees with me.....I'm dishonest?

No. You're using a very definition that is so broad that just about anything could be a colony. It works for the general idea of what a colony is but it in no way gives a proper understanding.

I'm really sorry you look at it that way. Imagine how it looks to me when you all dont have any definition at all, you just flatly assert, on your own authority, that isreal isnt a colony.

We've both directed you to Wikipedia, which has a generally good article that gives a basic overview of what a colony is. You just don't accept it. It isn't our authority, its the actually description of a colony.

Do you think we dominate Isreal politically and economically? please say yes.

No. Israel has an economy of its own. The loss of US aid would be big but its not going to result in the collapse of Israel. They'll get along just fine. Politically they're completely independent from us. You have to concoct a Zionist conspiracy and a non-existent Jewish lobby and a false application of colony to make it seem they aren't. Phyrix and me can just point to the fact that there isn't a jewish lobby with the level of power you suggest to disprove you. It's quite simple.

They are not a satellite state. We don't have that much control over them. They aren't a puppet state either cause we don't have enough control over them. At best, the US can walk to the Israeli government and ask them to do something which we can do with pretty much any country. They usually don't listen.

I tend to think that the rocket attacks and bombings would stop if the Palestinians could vote in Isreali elections.
Its not that relations would be great between the jews and palestinians; but it would be a start. If the palestinians tried to turn the apparatus of state against the Jews then it would be our obligation to help the jews. But if the Isrealis cant admit the palestinians to full citizenship and equality because theyre terrified of being swamped by a sea of brown people, then they should, as you say, recognize Palestine as a sovereign state.

Getting the jews to give anything like justice to the palestinians is crazy difficult. They want peace, but they dont want to do whats necessary to make it. Therefore the Palestinians resist. I hope they continue to make trouble for Isreal, because politically thats the only way you get things done. No one in Isreal or in the rest of the world would care 1 way or another about the Palestinians if it werent for the rocket attacks. Their choice is either to use those rockets or to be forgotten about entirely. Well under the circumstances I think rocket attacks are fair. There just isnt any alternative for people seeking justice at the hands of a state that would just a soon kill them as look at them.
AF

Its extremely interesting, and by interesting I mean revieals a lot, that you keep saying Jews. Israel is a nation. Jews are part of a religion. The fact you think rocket attacks against children is justified is just the icing on the cake. I guess its just too bad that don't have enough Zyklon B to put on those warheads eh?

On the positive, if this thread isn't Exhbit A on why the OT should be eliminated I don't know what is.

Well, might as well start with correcting a few problems here....

If we stopped supporting them they could never last, and they know it. I think that disqualifies them as independent.

Verification. Please. To claim a nation as geographically distant, and radically different as Israel is 100% susceptible to, and influenced by the whims of American foreign policy requires substantial, unarguable proof, let alone to claim that the nation would collapse altogether. Please provide this evidence in the form of academic citation, or at the very least, a verifiable and academcially respected source. Until then, I'll take such a wild sounding statement with a small mountain of salt.

you just flatly assert, on your own authority, that isreal isnt a colony.

You just as equally assert that is. A link to a dictionary does not equate proof. As a War Studies student (think history and politics combined), who recently finished a term studying the myriad types of colonialism from British Empire building, to American financial colonialism, you will have to excuse me if I take the umpteen dozen books I just read on the topic over your word for it.

reflect that Isrealis are westerners

Where does this perception of Israeli's as white skinned westerners come from? Have you ever met many Israeli's? Methinks not.
There were Jews who lived there long before Israel came into existence. By this stage of the game, fifty years down the line, the racial groupings get a little blurred. They're all quite tanned, and fairly similar. Please, no more bad analogies to prove this 'colonialism' point.

they kind of deserve what they get.

Y'know, I could turn that on it's head quite easily. For example, you could say that any American who gets blown up by an Islamic terrorist deserves what he gets, because US troops are in Afganistan. And I mean, if the US was willing to make the concession, and pull out, that terror attack would never have happened. Right? He clearly had it coming!

it would be ideal if the jews living in that area had not created this situation......So ideally yes the Isrealis would atone for their crime by leaving the area.

Let em get this straight. You think the Israeli's should all pack up and leave? Despite them having been dumped there fifty years ago by a world that didn't want them? Hang on. Little backstory on the creation of Israel here.

The plan to give the Jews their own homeland was proposed by the British goverment pre World War 1. The idea got pushed to one side shortly after due to larger events. Post World War 2, the Allies had all these Holocaust survivors left on their hands that they didn't know what to do with. The French mentione dthe original British idea of a Jewish homeland, but the British weren't interested. They'd gone off the idea. Not only that, they closed their doors to the survivors. Didn't want them in their country. The French did the same. The Jews were moved out of Nazi camps into marginally better camps, but they still had nothing apart from the clothes on their backs.

The French kept pushing the idea, mainly to hack off the British. The Americans weren't too keen on taking in all these boatloads of refugees either, so they pressured the British into agreeing. Hence, all the Jews got moved to Israel.

As you can see, they kind of didn't have much choice in the equation. They didn't invade, they didn't even set up their own 'homeland'. They were dumped there by an international community who wanted nothing more to do with them.
They didn't 'steal' the land. I think this is a very basic error that colours everything you say on the topic. I hope that once you realise this, you'll also realise how very, very foolish you sound when talking about how they should all be 'leaving the area'.

This thread is made of win.

I always find it odd how so many people hate the Israelis.. but most of all i love all this aggression... yeah!

mattyrm wrote:This thread is made of win.

I always find it odd how so many people hate the Israelis.. but most of all i love all this aggression... yeah!

On the positivbe I find it strangely reassuring that Matty could probably drink the entire Middle East under the table and manage to stagger out of the pub without difficulty.

Frazzled wrote:

mattyrm wrote:This thread is made of win.

I always find it odd how so many people hate the Israelis.. but most of all i love all this aggression... yeah!

On the positivbe I find it strangely reassuring that Matty could probably drink the entire Middle East under the table and manage to stagger out of the pub without difficulty.

Based on the performance he put on in Nottingham, I agree.

dogma wrote:

Phryxis wrote:
Also, none of this happens in a vaccuum. Let's say Iran decides that they're going to weaponize their fissionable materials, announces it. The world community will whine and do nothing. Then Israel strikes against their nuclear facilities. Iran responds with large scale ballistic strikes of their own.

You SERIOUSLY can't see the world community wringing their hands and doing nothing with that?

An open war with each combatant on either side of the world's most significant oil producing region, one of them almost definitely possessing nukes and a history of using excessive force? Absolutely not.

Hell, even China would probably be willing to commit troops, and they get about 7% of their oil from Iran.

I've always wondered what would happen if you nuke an oil field, hell it might solve this whole mess by removing the region entirely

Frazzled wrote:

I tend to think that the rocket attacks and bombings would stop if the Palestinians could vote in Isreali elections.
Its not that relations would be great between the jews and palestinians; but it would be a start. If the palestinians tried to turn the apparatus of state against the Jews then it would be our obligation to help the jews. But if the Isrealis cant admit the palestinians to full citizenship and equality because theyre terrified of being swamped by a sea of brown people, then they should, as you say, recognize Palestine as a sovereign state.

Getting the jews to give anything like justice to the palestinians is crazy difficult. They want peace, but they dont want to do whats necessary to make it. Therefore the Palestinians resist. I hope they continue to make trouble for Isreal, because politically thats the only way you get things done. No one in Isreal or in the rest of the world would care 1 way or another about the Palestinians if it werent for the rocket attacks. Their choice is either to use those rockets or to be forgotten about entirely. Well under the circumstances I think rocket attacks are fair. There just isnt any alternative for people seeking justice at the hands of a state that would just a soon kill them as look at them.
AF

Its extremely interesting, and by interesting I mean revieals a lot, that you keep saying Jews. Israel is a nation. Jews are part of a religion. The fact you think rocket attacks against children is justified is just the icing on the cake. I guess its just too bad that don't have enough Zyklon B to put on those warheads eh?

On the positive, if this thread isn't Exhbit A on why the OT should be eliminated I don't know what is.

anyone who calls a jew a jew is a skinhead. disappointing but entirely predictable.
I say jew because its not just the isrealis that were talking about. they are a cultural group no matter what their particular country of origin.
AF

AbaddonFidelis wrote:they are a cultural group no matter what their particular country of origin.
AF

No, they are many different cultural groups. There is no single defining 'Jew'. While many may be pro-Israel on foreign policy, there are also those that aren't. There are some that are highly religious and others that aren't at all with everything in between. By lumping them all together you propagate the misconception that they are some sort of bizarre hive mind.

Ketara
I'll find some sources for you. It wont convince you or anyone else, but whatever. Sources you will have....
AF


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Atman
lol. of course theres a definition of a jew. are you from another planet?


Jew   /dʒu/ Show Spelled
[joo] Show IPA

–noun
1. one of a scattered group of people that traces its descent from the Biblical Hebrews or from postexilic adherents of Judaism; Israelite.
2. a person whose religion is Judaism.
3. a subject of the ancient kingdom of Judah.


http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/jew?&qsrc=
AF

AbaddonFidelis wrote:anyone who calls a jew a jew is a skinhead. disappointing but entirely predictable.

No, but someone who lumps Israelis, Jews, and anyone else even remotely close either in ethnicity, religious practice, or geographical location into a single group and considers them interchangable is displaying a certain lack of... not being a jackass.

You don't have to be a Jew to be an Israeli and you don't have to be an Israeli to be a Jew. There are a lot of Jews in Israel, but there are also a lot of Jews in West Palm Beach. Neither has much to do with the other. When you're speaking of Israel I'd strongly recommend using terms like Israel and Israeli and avoid statements like, "Just throw all the Jews out."

I say jew because its not just the isrealis that were talking about. they are a cultural group no matter what their particular country of origin.

Jew =/= Israeli
Jewish People =/= Israel
Jews are also not interchangeable as they run the gamut of political opinions on the subject from "kill all the Palestinians" to "Lets just give them their land back."

I know this is high level political gak but trust me, there's a difference.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Atman
lol. of course theres a definition of a jew. are you from another planet?

AF

Are you having a special moment? I didn't say there wasn't a definition. Someone who claims Judaism as their religion is a Jew, but there is no singular culture or viewpoint within Judaism. A Russian Orthodox is not the same as an American Reform and their perspectives on issues can be different as well as their priorities. It is akin to saying Westboro Baptist is the same as The Church of Hip Hop. Sure they are both Christian in designation, but there theology and viewpoints are radically different. Saying "Jews do this" is just not true because there is no singular Jewish ideology.

Tyyr
sure there's a difference. did I say there wasnt?
If you dont think there's an affinity between jews world wide - that they dont self identify as belonging to a group - then you're out of your fething mind. No matter how painful it is to your precious fething sensibilities, jews do self identify as a group.
AF


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Ahtman wrote:there is no singular culture or viewpoint within Judaism.

did I say there was?
AF

AbaddonFidelis wrote:Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ahtman wrote:there is no singular culture or viewpoint within Judaism.

did I say there was?
AF

Every single time you open your mouth on the subject. Or put fingers to keyboard in this case.

For example: "Getting the jews to give anything like justice"

This insinuates that there is some wierd pan-Judaic view of the world and that they all act and think the same. You aren't just lambasting Israeli policy and it's supporters, you going after all people who claim Judiasm as their faith. You have done this consistently.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:Tyyr
sure there's a difference. did I say there wasnt?

Given your continued use of Jew and Israel as interchangeable you sure are acting as if there isn't.

If you dont think there's an affinity between jews world wide - that they dont self identify as belonging to a group - then you're out of your fething mind.

Affinity does not mean they act as a single block, think as a single block, all believe the same thing etc. To suggest that would make you... well see your own comment. Do Jews self identify as Jews? Sure. Does that mean they are a coherent inseparable whole? About as much as Christians, Muslims, Brits, or Americans represent coherent same thinking groups. Treating them as if they were totally united demonstrates a level of understanding on the subject that pretty much disqualifies you from discussing it with anyone over the age of five.

Atman
If you dont think there's an affinity between jews world wide - that they dont self identify as belonging to a group - then you're out of your fething mind. No matter how painful it is to your precious fething sensibilities, jews do self identify as a group.
AF

AbaddonFidelis wrote:isreal didnt need to kill anyone to stop that fleet. not that their blockade is legal or justified anyway.

Did you bother watching the video's of the attack? Israeli's only used deadly force once it was warranted. The second the Commando's hit the ship, they were attacked by a mob weilding deadly weapons. When a man comes running at you with a giant metal bar, you do not try to engage him with your hands. That bar will kill you with one hit. You put two in his chest, and move on to the next target. Rules of Engagement and LOAC made that a legal engagement. The commando's were met with deadly force while enacting a lawful boarding action, and they responded with deadly force.

And please cite how the blockade is not legal? They are at war with the governing body of Gaza. Hamas launches numerous attacks against Israel all the time. Even President Obama says the blockade is legal.

Israel has delivered more then 2 billion pounds of aid to Gaza in the last year and a half. Thats more then 1300lbs per person. Meanwhile, Egypt which also shares a border with Gaza, has blockaded all aid shipments to the area through their territory. Israeli's are the bad guys though.

Israelies provide medical care to the citizens of Gaza. Treating them in hospitals that Hamas attacks with rockets. But the Israeli's are the bad guys.

Hamas attacks aid convoys entering Gaza, and steals the content and then sells it to the highest bidder. But the Israeli's are the bad guys.

Hamas attacked a UN Aid station and stole all the supplies there. Israeli's are the bad guys though.

Hamas illegally takes over the Gaza Strip, instigating the entire crisis, but Israel is to blame.

Within 6 months of Hamas taking over the Gaza Strip, they launched nearly 700 rockets, and nearly a thousand mortar attacks into Israel. Israeli's are the bad guys though. Even though they waited 14 months after the take over to declare the Gaza Strip a hostile region.

It never ceases to amaze me that a terrorist organization gets more support by people like you then a country actively fighting the terrorists.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:Atman
If you dont think there's an affinity between jews world wide - that they dont self identify as belonging to a group - then you're out of your fething mind. No matter how painful it is to your precious fething sensibilities, jews do self identify as a group.
AF

I see you don't know any Jewish people. That is like saying Christians self identify as belonging to a group. Sure, they call themselves Christian, but that doesn't mean they think the same on subjects and that they blindly support each other. You probably aren't a skin head or anything like that, but you are obliviously fairly ignorant on the subject.

MasterDRD Wrote ATTENTION EVERYONE WHO THINKS ISRAEL IS IN ANY WAY A VICTIM:
Watch this documentary. It should be eye-opening for you. And if you're too busy to watch this and broaden your understanding of a very serious issue going on in our world for many years, one you've been arguing about in this thread for hours, then wtf are you doing in the OT forum debating anyway? If you're not willing to research your stance then you don't belong in a debate.

For the ones who know what's really going on, I would imagine you've already seen this; but if not then you should watch it too.

Just watched this "documentary"! I think it's funny how a documentary about Israeli propaganda is really a Palestinian propaganda movie. Not that I expected much, both sides are pretty good at pulling the heart strings to your face, while being evil behind your back.

According to this documentary it's all Israels fault. It's much more than that. I feel for the average Palestinian person, it sucks! They can't really leave, as their friends (the other arab countries) don't want them either, they just want to use them as pawns against the Israelis.

Look stop throwing rocks, launching rockets, and blowing gak up and maybe the Israelis won't shoot you all the time. Everytime there is peace it's almost always the Palestinians that start the problems again.

You lost your land in the 60's. Get over it, move the *&^ on! Oh wait your friend's don't want to help you, they will just give you weapons to be a thorn in Israels side.

The fact that often times the Israelis use teargas, rubber bullets and pepper balls against the Palestinians, shows to me that they aren't just out to massacre, everyone. Yes, ok, that may be a tactic, less than lethal munitions can get you sympathy.

I don't know I'm sick of the whole thing really. The blockade run is a prime example. Pretty stupid to bait the Israelis with a blockade run, Pretty stupid of the Israel's to respond the way they did. However, they could have waited until they actually broke the blockade and just sunk the ship. Call the Israelis what you want, but they are not being as belligerent as they could be. The Palestinians are however being as belligerent as they can be.

You can agree or disagree with the blockade. The fact is it's there. To bait it is just asking for trouble.

Even in this documentary you see that there are average Israelis that are trying to help the Palestinians rebuild their homes, and others trying to help the Palestinians. When was the last time you saw an arab or a muslim helping anybody that isn't one of their own, much less an opponent?

Ahtman wrote:

AbaddonFidelis wrote:Atman
If you dont think there's an affinity between jews world wide - that they dont self identify as belonging to a group - then you're out of your fething mind. No matter how painful it is to your precious fething sensibilities, jews do self identify as a group.
AF

I see you don't know any Jewish people. That is like saying Christians self identify as belonging to a group. Sure, they call themselves Christian, but that doesn't mean they think the same on subjects and that they blindly support each other. You probably aren't a skin head or anything like that, but you are obliviously fairly ignorant on the subject.

Christians do self identify as belonging to a group.
consider yourself..... dismissed.
AF

AbaddonFidelis wrote:

Ahtman wrote:

AbaddonFidelis wrote:Atman
If you dont think there's an affinity between jews world wide - that they dont self identify as belonging to a group - then you're out of your fething mind. No matter how painful it is to your precious fething sensibilities, jews do self identify as a group.
AF

I see you don't know any Jewish people. That is like saying Christians self identify as belonging to a group. Sure, they call themselves Christian, but that doesn't mean they think the same on subjects and that they blindly support each other. You probably aren't a skin head or anything like that, but you are obliviously fairly ignorant on the subject.

Christians do self identify as belonging to a group.
consider yourself..... dismissed.
AF

You can't be serious. You're not this ignorant, right?

Please tell me you're joking around here.

Monster Rain wrote:

AbaddonFidelis wrote:

Ahtman wrote:

AbaddonFidelis wrote:Atman
If you dont think there's an affinity between jews world wide - that they dont self identify as belonging to a group - then you're out of your fething mind. No matter how painful it is to your precious fething sensibilities, jews do self identify as a group.
AF

I see you don't know any Jewish people. That is like saying Christians self identify as belonging to a group. Sure, they call themselves Christian, but that doesn't mean they think the same on subjects and that they blindly support each other. You probably aren't a skin head or anything like that, but you are obliviously fairly ignorant on the subject.

Christians do self identify as belonging to a group.
consider yourself..... dismissed.
AF

You can't be serious. You're not this ignorant, right?

Please tell me you're joking around here.

You didn't notice by his poor understanding of history? US or otherwise.

djones520 wrote: Israeli's only used deadly force once it was warranted. The second the Commando's hit the ship, they were attacked by a mob weilding deadly weapons.

The Isrealis knew they would be resisted, they could have used non-lethal force to control the situation, they didnt do it, thats a war crime. If the people on that ship had attacked them with a machine gun it would have been different.

djones520 wrote: And please cite how the blockade is not legal?

they are an occupying power with obligations under the 1949 geneva conventions to the civilian population of that region.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7069203.stm

The UN, Human Rights Watch and many other international bodies and NGOs consider Israel to be the occupying power of the Gaza Strip as Israel controls Gaza's airspace and territorial waters, and does not allow the movement or goods in or out of Gaza by air or sea
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_Strip

djones520 wrote:
They are at war with the governing body of Gaza.

an entirely predictable result of invading someone else's territory, forcibly evicting its inhabitants, setting up a state, then using the aperatus of that state to conduct a program of systematic racial oppression. damn peculiar, that...

djones520 wrote:
Israel has delivered more then 2 billion pounds of aid to Gaza in the last year and a half. Thats more then 1300lbs per person. Meanwhile, Egypt which also shares a border with Gaza, has blockaded all aid shipments to the area through their territory. Israeli's are the bad guys though.

You're asking me for my sources. I think its fair to ask you for yours.
Egypt's culpability does not excuse or justify Isreal's actions.

djones wrote:
Israelies provide medical care to the citizens of Gaza. Treating them in hospitals that Hamas attacks with rockets. But the Israeli's are the bad guys.

Hamas attacks aid convoys entering Gaza, and steals the content and then sells it to the highest bidder. But the Israeli's are the bad guys.

Hamas attacked a UN Aid station and stole all the supplies there. Israeli's are the bad guys though.

Hamas illegally takes over the Gaza Strip, instigating the entire crisis, but Israel is to blame.

People cannot and should not be bought off by being thrown the scraps of someone else's charity. The Palestinians have the same rights as any other group of people; to full political and legal equality within the state. That means either getting their own state or being admitted on equal terms within the Isreali state. But since the Isrealis arent willing to do that then they have every right to take up arms.

djones520 wrote:
Within 6 months of Hamas taking over the Gaza Strip, they launched nearly 700 rockets, and nearly a thousand mortar attacks into Israel. Israeli's are the bad guys though. Even though they waited 14 months after the take over to declare the Gaza Strip a hostile region.

Why arent you counting all the bombs and missiles the Isrealis have dropped on the Palestinians?

djones520 wrote:
It never ceases to amaze me that a terrorist organization gets more support by people like you then a country actively fighting the terrorists.

sadly the post 9/11 reality is that all you have to do to discredit someone is call them a terrorist. Why the hell do you think those people are fighting? They have no home, no future, no rights, all because the damn isrealis are holding the whole region by force and refusing every sensible compromise. Under those circumstances I would be fighting too. Whats worse, we're the ones who make it possible. Because the Isrealis are white like us and the palestinians are brown like Osama. The whole thing is racist. We should be on the side of justice, not on the side of skin color.
AF


Automatically Appended Next Post:
MonsterRain
sorry did you actually have something to say? I missed it.
AF


Automatically Appended Next Post:
LordOfHats
pretention and ignorance is a bad combination.
There was never a massachussetts bay company. It didnt have a corporate charter. There was a massachussetts bay COLONY however. Please google this gak before you type. Watching you is painful.
AF