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soo today i was talking to a buddy about deepstriking and all that come with it. he then tells me that deepstriking mishaps arent RAW, saying that for a mishap to happen you have to move within 2" of an enemy models or 1" of my own, or off the table. (dont have a rulebook on me atm so the distances may be off). hes not arguing the off the table mishap, hes saying that the rule book says you cannot move with in 2" or 1", so if you scatter on top of said units, you stop at either 2" or 1", since the rules say you cant move on top of them...

any help with this would be great, thanks.

There are a few units that stop short of the enemy unit and avoid a mishap, but those are clearly detailed in their relevant codex entries (mycetic Spore and Drop Pods being two).

The problem with his wording is, the units do not exist on the board until the final position of the scatter is determined. Then they magically appear at whatever the location is. If this location would put them into a place where they cannot legally exist (within 2 inches of an enemy unit) they suffer a mishap, since they cannot "move back" to where they were (well, technically they can, but that's one of the mishap results) as they technically did not exist until just this moment.

page 95 Deep strike mishaps covers this.

If any model cannot be deployed because it would land fall off the table in impassable terrain or on top of a friendly model or within 1 inch of an enemy model it mishaps.

Roll your scatter, if it WOULD fall within on of these conditions it will mishap.

Unfortunately, your friend is correct (sorry Mecha and Melchiour). Deep Striking does the following

1) Place the model on the board
2) Roll the scatter result
3) If off target, move the model in the direction rolled the distance rolled

Sadly, it is this last one that the problem occurs. You model moves that distance. So, if he happens across impassible terrain (including enemy models) he would stop and a mishap doesn't occur.

Of course, this is one of those silly RAW things that people are (usually) going to ignore. If your friend was pointing out how silly the rules are, he's right and we should all get together and have a fine laugh and GW's expense. But, if we was actually trying to avoid a mishap, next time you play him, take as much long range weaponry you can and deploy on the bookshelf behind his forces. RAW, this is legal.

Grakmar wrote:So, if he happens across impassible terrain (including enemy models) he would stop and a mishap doesn't occur.

So just to get save the time of looking up the text, you are asserting the model is counted as moving--following all the rules that requires--before its unit is deployed?

Not so fast.

The model does not MOVE. It SCATTERS.

This is not normal movement.

Just like an assault move is not normal movement.

If scattering deep strikers were moving normally, and therefore could not mishap, then assaulters, who are moving, can never assault, since they couldn't move within 1" of an enemy model.

Mishap works by virtue of not being normal movement.

kirsanth wrote:

Grakmar wrote:So, if he happens across impassible terrain (including enemy models) he would stop and a mishap doesn't occur.

So just to get save the time of looking up the text, you are asserting the model is counted as moving--following all the rules that requires--before its unit is deployed?

Yes, it occurs in the moving phase, and you are instructed to move the model.

But, to be clear, in my mind, this falls into the same category of things like models without eyes not being able to fire. This is funny to point out, but should be 100%, completely, totally, absolutely ignored in a real game.

Grakmar wrote:

kirsanth wrote:

Grakmar wrote:So, if he happens across impassible terrain (including enemy models) he would stop and a mishap doesn't occur.

So just to get save the time of looking up the text, you are asserting the model is counted as moving--following all the rules that requires--before its unit is deployed?

Yes, it occurs in the moving phase, and you are instructed to move the model.

But, to be clear, in my mind, this falls into the same category of things like models without eyes not being able to fire. This is funny to point out, but should be 100%, completely, totally, absolutely ignored in a real game.

See my above post.

I liked the idea of letting my spods ignore scatter since they cannot move.

Or limiting my a Mawloc to 6" max on the 2d6 since its max move is 6".

Oh well.

P11 about movement: "A model may not move within 1" of an enemy model unless assaulting."

P95 about deep strike: "If a scatter occurs, roll 2d6 to see how many inches the model moves away from the intended position."

That seems to indicate that their scatter is, in fact, movement.

Edit: Oh, and kirsanth, I believe forced movement (which deep strike seems to be) can be more than your maximum normal movement.

Also page 11:
"Sometimes a unit may have to move a random distance instead of the usual 6" or be forced to move in a certain way. . .Such situations are discussed later"

Note:
Page 95 is later.

Your point? Assaulting is also movement. So is disembarking. So is Lash of Submission. So is Pavane of Slaanesh. So is teleportation.

None of them are standard movement. They're all special kinds of movement that specifically ignore the movement rules in some way or another. While a couple of those still have a few of the same restrictions, you'll notice not a single one of those examples I just mentioned, despite them all being "movement," share ALL of the restrictions of normal movement.

Deep strike scatter is no exception.

SaintHazard wrote:Your point? Assaulting is also movement. So is disembarking. So is Lash of Submission. So is Pavane of Slaanesh. So is teleportation.

None of them are standard movement. They're all special kinds of movement that specifically ignore the movement rules in some way or another. While a couple of those still have a few of the same restrictions, you'll notice not a single one of those examples I just mentioned, despite them all being "movement," share ALL of the restrictions of normal movement.

Deep strike scatter is no exception.

But, assaulting is the only one that is listed as being allowed to violate the 1" rule.

If you're saying deep striking movement doesn't get the 1" restriction, then am I allowed to disembark within 1" of the enemy?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, and I'd like to add that I'd love to see this loophole in the rules closed! So, I'm hoping you guys win this argument!

Grakmar wrote:But, assaulting is the only one that is listed as being allowed to violate the 1" rule.

If you're saying deep striking movement doesn't get the 1" restriction, then am I allowed to disembark within 1" of the enemy?

No, but you ARE allowed to disembark and then continue moving as normal (a full 6" assuming your transport hasn't moved) despite already having "moved" (since disembarkation is movement).

Like I said, they don't all have the same restrictions, but none of those special cases have ALL of the restrictions. One of the restrictions deep strike scatter does NOT have is the inability to move within 1" of an enemy. It explicitly tells you that it can happen by telling you what happens if it does.

And again, they don't move, they scatter. It's not deep strike movement, it's deep strike scatter. Proper terminology is important, because that's how you make the distinctions. Just like assaulting is movement, but you don't call it that, because it doesn't have the same rules as movement.

SaintHazard wrote:
No, but you ARE allowed to disembark and then continue moving as normal (a full 6" assuming your transport hasn't moved) despite already having "moved" (since disembarkation is movement).

Like I said, they don't all have the same restrictions, but none of those special cases have ALL of the restrictions. One of the restrictions deep strike scatter does NOT have is the inability to move within 1" of an enemy. It explicitly tells you that it can happen by telling you what happens if it does.

And again, they don't move, they scatter. It's not deep strike movement, it's deep strike scatter. Proper terminology is important, because that's how you make the distinctions. Just like assaulting is movement, but you don't call it that, because it doesn't have the same rules as movement.

But, Hazard, how do you know what restrictions apply to what movement? I'm under the impression all restrictions apply unless that sub-set of movement specifically lists an exception.

Oh, and the mishap table exists to tell you what happens "if" this situation occurs. Which can occur if you are aiming to deep strike on top of an enemy unit, or if you have too many models and can't place them in a circle around the one that was forced to stop by encountering impassible terrain.

Grakmar wrote:But, Hazard, how do you know what restrictions apply to what movement? I'm under the impression all restrictions apply unless that sub-set of movement specifically lists an exception.

Oh, and the mishap table exists to tell you what happens "if" this situation occurs. Which can occur if you are aiming to deep strike on top of an enemy unit, or if you have too many models and can't place them in a circle around the one that was forced to stop by encountering impassible terrain.

You know because it tells you. The rules for disembarking specifically tell you that if the transport hasn't moved, the troops may then take their normal movement.

Likewise, the deep strike mishap rules tell you that you can move within 1" of an enemy unit, or onto impassible terrain, or on top of your own units, or off the board, because it tells you what happens in that scenario.

It's a bit snarled up (chalk another one up to GW's poor proofreading), but it works.

I'm looking for another example to back this one up, gimme a minute.

Okay, for example, Pavane of Slaanesh, in Codex: Chaos Daemons.

"The Pavane of Slaanesh is a ranged weapon with a range of 18". Roll to hit as normal. If the target unit is hit, it will immediately begin to dance to the tune of the Lord of Excess - the firer can immediately move the target up to D6". This movement follows the same rules as a normal move, except that it is not slowed by difficult terrain."

The Pavane of Slaanesh is used in the Shooting phase, where normal movement cannot take place.

I totally get what you're saying. And, I agree that's how I would like to interpret things.

But, how is this different than the Frenzy problem (sorry to bring this up again, but it's the best example I can think of ).

Frenzy tells you what to do if you can draw LOS, but you can't, so it doesn't work. Mishap tells you what to do if you move onto an enemy model, but you can't, so it doesn't work.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Aww... I was enjoying this discussion.

Hazard, don't worry, I'm excited to know if you've got a good explanation for the difference! Write it down and remember it!

The difference between drawing LOS and not drawing LOS is a very definitive line and a completely different scenario that really has no bearing on the movement scenario in discussion.

The rules are very clear about where you can and can't move during normal movement for everyday foot troops. Deep striking is an exception to the movement rules as you can deep strike "anywhere on the board" that you want. There are simply stipulations for what happens if your unit ends up in a certain situation. Not to mention that even though the rule for deep striking says "movement", you are following the movement rules for deep striking not the movement rules for standard unit A.

Also, I believe deep striking happens before the movement phase anyway.

The biggest issue is:

Kevin949 wrote:Also, I believe deep striking happens before the movement phase anyway.

On your opponent's turn? Check out the turn sequence on page 9.

Also, page 94 regarding rolling for reserves states "at the start" not "before the start" of the movement phase.

Grakmar wrote:Unfortunately, your friend is correct (sorry Mecha and Melchiour). Deep Striking does the following

1) Place the model on the board
2) Roll the scatter result
3) If off target, move the model in the direction rolled the distance rolled

Sadly, it is this last one that the problem occurs. You model moves that distance. So, if he happens across impassible terrain (including enemy models) he would stop and a mishap doesn't occur.

Of course, this is one of those silly RAW things that people are (usually) going to ignore. If your friend was pointing out how silly the rules are, he's right and we should all get together and have a fine laugh and GW's expense. But, if we was actually trying to avoid a mishap, next time you play him, take as much long range weaponry you can and deploy on the bookshelf behind his forces. RAW, this is legal.

Wow, please don't answer any more questions.

kirsanth wrote:The biggest issue is:

Kevin949 wrote:Also, I believe deep striking happens before the movement phase anyway.

On your opponent's turn? Check out the turn sequence on page 9.

Also, page 94 regarding rolling for reserves states "at the start" not "before the start" of the movement phase.

Ok...it still supersedes any other movement. It really doesn't matter to the rest of what I said originally anyway, and I did state that I wasn't sure so you can leave the sarcastic tone out of it if you wouldn't mind. Feel free to put in any other comments on what I said though if you agree/disagree with what was said.

Grakmar wrote:... But, if we was actually trying to avoid a mishap, next time you play him, take as much long range weaponry you can and deploy on the bookshelf behind his forces. RAW, this is legal.

Deploying on the bookshelf behind his forces is not legal.

Grakmar wrote:P11 about movement: "A model may not move within 1" of an enemy model unless assaulting."

P95 about deep strike: "If a scatter occurs, roll 2d6 to see how many inches the model moves away from the intended position."

That seems to indicate that their scatter is, in fact, movement.

Edit: Oh, and kirsanth, I believe forced movement (which deep strike seems to be) can be more than your maximum normal movement.

A scatter is not true movement. you only place the model at the intended position because thats where you intend for it to land.

In the case of a drop pod (or anything else dropped from the sky) where it scatters to is where it will land after being dropped out of the sky, and it will never have occupied the space you placed it on, since it landed somewhere else.

Let's not forget that models without eyes can't shoot either.

Sorry if I am not understanding the conversation, but my understanding is that if I deep strike a drop pod into an open area, it scatters into an enemy model or impassable terrain, the pod stops as close as it can normally get to that obstacle. My understanding is that a Drop Pod can only mishap if you place it on enemy models or impassable terrain or if it scatters off the board.

Is this RAI and not RAW?

This is RAW just fine.

Some people are attempting to say that "RAW", when it isnt, is that scattering == movement and therefore you cannot scatter your marker (whichi s what the model is, a marker, nothing more) within 1" of an enemy unit, meaning mishaps for a normal unit would rarely occur.

If deepstrike scattering were movement which followed the exact same procedures as normal movement (thus stopping at impassible/1" of enemy) then wouldn't you have to take Difficult/Dangerous tests if such would apply?

Also, isn't there a bit of difference in the fact that when deepstriking, you place a single model down, do the move, then place the rest of the unit AFTER the scatter. This is very different then the normal rules for movement.

Its not a "RAW Loophole" (don't get me wrong, those do exists, this is just one of those instances where its a 'percieved loophole' instead of an 'actual loophole') its a very obscure interpretation to state that Deepstriking rules and page 22 normal movement rules.

Its kinda like how some people purposely misinterpret the "Sniper" rule to state that Sniper "hits cause a wound on a 4+" so no roll to wound is required(other then to check for rending, on a 6) as the rules states the wound is cause on the To Hit roll of 4+....

Deepstriking is fine, according to RAW

The "can't-mishap because the Deep Strike rules use 'move'" argument is the counter to the "can't-target-another-unit because the Deep Strike rules use 'place'" argument.

Neither is actually true, as there are no rules-loaded keywords in the rules.

Place where you want, scatter through terrain- the initital model isn't anything more than a target token until you're finished with the scatter procedure and actually place all of the unit.

DeathReaper wrote:Deploying on the bookshelf behind his forces is not legal.

Well, there's no rules at all governing deployment. You're given a "deployment zone", but the rules are lacking any actual words saying "And all your deployments must be in this zone". There's also nothing forbidding you from moving around off the board. Again, this is a silly circumstance that it's best to pretend the rules do have these stipulations.

DeathReaper wrote:
A scatter is not true movement. you only place the model at the intended position because thats where you intend for it to land.

In the case of a drop pod (or anything else dropped from the sky) where it scatters to is where it will land after being dropped out of the sky, and it will never have occupied the space you placed it on, since it landed somewhere else.

Yes, that is the logical explanation. But, RAW often times violates logic. So, in a purely "what do the rules tell you to literally do" sense, the model is placed on the board, then moved due to scatter.

XionXxen wrote:Sorry if I am not understanding the conversation, but my understanding is that if I deep strike a drop pod into an open area, it scatters into an enemy model or impassable terrain, the pod stops as close as it can normally get to that obstacle. My understanding is that a Drop Pod can only mishap if you place it on enemy models or impassable terrain or if it scatters off the board.

Is this RAI and not RAW?

Drop Pods have special rules for their deep striking, specifically telling you to avoid mishaps.

nosferatu1001 wrote:This is RAW just fine.

Some people are attempting to say that "RAW", when it isnt, is that scattering == movement and therefore you cannot scatter your marker (whichi s what the model is, a marker, nothing more) within 1" of an enemy unit, meaning mishaps for a normal unit would rarely occur.

But, where does it say that this model you've placed on the board is just a marker? Is there any precedent in the rules for a model being anything other than an actual model?

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:If deepstrike scattering were movement which followed the exact same procedures as normal movement (thus stopping at impassible/1" of enemy) then wouldn't you have to take Difficult/Dangerous tests if such would apply?

Also, isn't there a bit of difference in the fact that when deepstriking, you place a single model down, do the move, then place the rest of the unit AFTER the scatter. This is very different then the normal rules for movement.

Its not a "RAW Loophole" (don't get me wrong, those do exists, this is just one of those instances where its a 'percieved loophole' instead of an 'actual loophole') its a very obscure interpretation to state that Deepstriking rules and page 22 normal movement rules.

Its kinda like how some people purposely misinterpret the "Sniper" rule to state that Sniper "hits cause a wound on a 4+" so no roll to wound is required(other then to check for rending, on a 6) as the rules states the wound is cause on the To Hit roll of 4+....

Deepstriking is fine, according to RAW

I believe difficult terrain is ignored for forced movement. But, yeah, I guess you would have to take a dangerous terrain test.

And, yes, there's a huge difference between deep striking and "normal" movement. But, the restriction to be outside 1" applies to all movement other than assault, which the rule specifically mentions it doesn't apply to.

forkbanger wrote:The "can't-mishap because the Deep Strike rules use 'move'" argument is the counter to the "can't-target-another-unit because the Deep Strike rules use 'place'" argument.

Neither is actually true, as there are no rules-loaded keywords in the rules.

Place where you want, scatter through terrain- the initital model isn't anything more than a target token until you're finished with the scatter procedure and actually place all of the unit.

Again, what in the rules says that the initial model is just a token? And, you roll the scatter, and then move the random distance. It doesn't say you actually scatter the placement, it says roll scatter and move.




The wording of the deep strike scattering makes it look more like the random movement of spore mines then the scatter of a blast weapon.

Because the rules say to see how far the model scatters. Exactly like a blast marker.

The rule doesn't say move within 1"...it says if you CANT place your model there due to enemys within 1" or impassable terrain you take a misshap. Therefor doesn't break moving rules.

Also even if it did specific > general. Same way that jump troops can move through enemy models even though movement rules say you can't.