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nosferatu1001 wrote:Because the rules say to see how far the model scatters. Exactly like a blast marker.

They do not say you roll to see how far the model scatters. They do say you roll to see how far the model moves.

P95: "If a scatter occurs, roll 2d6 to see how many inches the model moves away from the intended position."

So tell me then how an immobile drop pod can "move" then. It can't, unless given explicit permissions above and beyond the normal rules for movement...which deep strike rules do.

Or how a model can move when its unit is not deployed.

Or how infantry can move 12".

Or not. . . .

Kevin949 wrote:So tell me then how an immobile drop pod can "move" then. It can't, unless given explicit permissions above and beyond the normal rules for movement...which deep strike rules do.

Actually, that's a very interesting question. Does forced movement override immobile? Can you use Lash of Submission to force an immobile vehicle to move?

kirsanth wrote:Or how a model can move when its unit is not deployed.

Or how infantry can move 12".

But, you have already deployed them (twice actually). You first deployed them in reserves. You then deployed that first model by placing it on the board.

And, a forced movement can exceed your normal movement distance.

Grakmar wrote:But, you have already deployed them (twice actually). You first deployed them in reserves. You then deployed that first model by placing it on the board.

And, a forced movement can exceed your normal movement distance.

Page 94 "When deploying their army, players may choose not to deploy one or more units and instead leave them in reserve"

So when were they deployed first?

Page 95 describes deploying via deepstrike--yet the placement of the first model is NOT the deployment of the unit. In fact, the entire unit's arrival is what is desribed as deployment--not only when the first model is placed.

So when were they deployed second?

And where is the allowment for forced movement to override normal movement?

I see one place that I quoted before, page 11 when it lets you know that movement rules have a unique application when random and compulsory movement is involved--they are exceptions to the movement rules.

kirsanth wrote:Page 94 "When deploying their army, players may choose not to deploy one or more units and instead leave them in reserve"

So when were they deployed first?

Ah, my mistake, I thought that you actually had to deploy them in reserves. You're right.

kirsanth wrote:
Page 95 describes deploying via deepstrike--yet the placement of the first model is NOT the deployment of the unit. In fact, the entire unit's arrival is what is desribed as deployment--not only when the first model is placed.

So when were they deployed second?

Well, this is a tricky situation. If you look at the rules for reserves, there's no clear moment when they suddenly count as "deployed". You have to move them, measuring from the edge of the board. But, are they "deployed" when they're still off the board? If so, then that raises some interesting questions about units being off the game board. If they aren't "deployed" until after movement on, then you are, apparently, allowed to move before a unit is deployed.

kirsanth wrote:
And where is the allowment for forced movement to override normal movement?

For example: Fall back moves. Surely, when you're falling back 2d6, you aren't limited to 6", are you?

kirsanth wrote:
I see one place that I quoted before, page 11 when it lets you know that movement rules have a unique application when random and compulsory movement is involved--they are exceptions to the movement rules.

Page 11 isn't particularly helpful. It says sometimes a unit may have to be forced to move in a certain way. But, you aren't given permission there to violate the 1" restriction, nor are you given permission to violate 1" in the deep strike rules. There are other "special" movements that we do assume have to follow the 1" restriction, even though they don't say that they do. For example, the run rules on page 16 just tell you to move d6". Are you allowed to use run to get into BtB? No. So, why are you allowed to use the deep strike forced movement to get into BtB (and thereby mishap)?

Grakmar wrote:Page 11 isn't particularly helpful.

So where are you getting your rules?

Page 11 says that compulsory and random movement is covered elsewhere.

If you are going to say it is movement, it is random and compulsory--which means its rules are covered under deepstriking, since there is nowhere else to look. There is no 1" restriction listed in Deeptrike rules--instead there are rules telling you what to do if you end up there.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
I think it is really worth remembering that 40k (GW?) does not use (key)words like many other game companies.

"Move" does not always mean the same thing.

Like "Storm Shield", "Initiative", or "Smoke Launchers" do not always mean the same thing.

It is one of the main reasons that nit-picking can carry on so long.

Fact of the matter is, this is a case where an exception is made because the Rules directly addresses it. There's no roundabout way to go at it.

Grakmar wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:Deploying on the bookshelf behind his forces is not legal.

Well, there's no rules at all governing deployment. You're given a "deployment zone", but the rules are lacking any actual words saying "And all your deployments must be in this zone". There's also nothing forbidding you from moving around off the board. Again, this is a silly circumstance that it's best to pretend the rules do have these stipulations.

It does, on Page 92 under deploy forces. Under Pitched battle "...He then deploys his force in his half of the table..."

It defines where you can deploy.

Grakmar wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:
A scatter is not true movement. you only place the model at the intended position because thats where you intend for it to land.

In the case of a drop pod (or anything else dropped from the sky) where it scatters to is where it will land after being dropped out of the sky, and it will never have occupied the space you placed it on, since it landed somewhere else.

Yes, that is the logical explanation. But, RAW often times violates logic. So, in a purely "what do the rules tell you to literally do" sense, the model is placed on the board, then moved due to scatter.

RAW you have to deploy to come onto the table, be it deep strike or regular deployment.

P 94 under rolling for reserves "...the player picks any one unit and deploys it moving it onto the table as described later..."

So the initial placement of the one model from the unit is not sufficient and the unit is not yet deployed until the whole unit is on the table. Therefore, until you determine the units final position, it can not interact with the rest of the battlefield.

So then if the 'model' being placed for Deep Strike scatter counts as movement (so would stop before 1" of enemy models/at impassible terrain), wouldn't that make scattering illegal for any unit composed of more then one model (As it would be outside of coherency with the other models in its unit)?

No, because you can move models individually e.g. 6", you arent required to move all models at the same time (although rules for such might making OrK hordes fun.....!) You are then compelled to bring any other models into coherency with their movement - but cannot know if you have or havent as you cannot measure them until you place them.

Good job it isnt movement after all...!

nosferatu1001 wrote:No, because you can move models individually e.g. 6", you arent required to move all models at the same time (although rules for such might making OrK hordes fun.....!) You are then compelled to bring any other models into coherency with their movement - but cannot know if you have or havent as you cannot measure them until you place them.

Just to clarify (as this statement seems confusing). Would this mean that I am able to move my squad of ten Tac marines in such a manner.

1st Model moves 6" to the left

2nd Model moves 6" to the right

3rd Model moves 6" backwards

4th-10th Model moves 6" forward.

Next turn I would be required to move them closer togeather to regain coherency, but this inital move would be completely legal as I don't have to check for coherency until the entire unit finishes movement (and checking before that would be premeasuring)?

That's a good issue. The BGB says that you have to maintain unit coherency, and that you have to move models out of coherency in at their earliest opportunity, but there's definitely times when you accidentally end up with a model more than 2" away from another model. What happens?

Grakmar wrote:That's a good issue. The BGB says that you have to maintain unit coherency, and that you have to move models out of coherency in at their earliest opportunity, but there's definitely times when you accidentally end up with a model more than 2" away from another model. What happens?

The BGB says that once a unit has finished moving that the models "...must form an imaginary chainwhere the distance between one model and the next is no more than 2"."
So you cannot move a unit the way Daemon-Archon Ren sggested, because it would not be a legal move.
Should a unit lose coherency during a turn, usually by taking casualties, then the next turn the models "...must be moved in such a way that they restore coherency in their next Movement phase." and if that is not possible then they must restore coherency as soon as they can (possibly by running instead of shooting).

Bottom line, you cannot voluntarily move a unit without the models in it being in coherency at the end of the move.

DAR - no, as that isnt what I said.

If you consider the model to be more than a marker, and to be part of the unit, and for the scatter to be a move, then you still dont have to worry about coherency - as the unit isnt on the board and not embarked on a vehicle you cannot measure to it to show it is outside of 2".

What I am saying is that *temporarily*, AS you are moving it is OK to have models out of coherency. However once you finish moving you must again be in coherency.

If you required models to be in coherence *as you move*, then it would make playing horde orks VERY interesting!

nosferatu1001 wrote:
What I am saying is that *temporarily*, AS you are moving it is OK to have models out of coherency. However once you finish moving you must again be in coherency.

Ok, I was a bit confused there (sorry about that) I thought you were saying that you didn't have to check for coherency untill ALL models have moved (not each individually).

And either way after reading it, coherency doesn't matter, as scatter would be "involuntary movement" (which does not require coherency, unless otherwise stated).

But regardless, the "marker" model doesn't follow normal movement rules when scattering (as otherwise argued) so that they would stop before "landing in Impassible terrain or within 1" of an enemy model" as the rule book makes no mention of the scatter counting as movement described in the BRB section: THE MOVEMENT PHASE. If it was that same level of movement, then if you passed though difficult(remember, deepstriking units count difficult terrain as dangerous) or dangerous terrain during your scatter (but ended up in either) you would have to take a dangerous terrain test, and if your marker failed its dangerous terrain test before the rest of the unit arrived, the game would break.