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Made in ca
Aspirant Tech-Adept





suject says it all, im thimking of getting at lease 1
   
Made in us
Blood-Raging Khorne Berserker





Riverside, Cali

Very nice APC, Space Marines do great with it, just a shame the Guard can not use it for special weapons teams.

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Made in us
Wicked Ghast





The vast blue ocean

Very good, I'ts a scoring AV 12 TL Plazma/Lazcannon

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Cryx: 100 pts painted
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Thinking of Joining a Davinite Loge







Very good, I'ts a scoring AV 11 TL Plazma/Lazcannon


Fixed that for ya!

Jidmah wrote:That's why I keep my enemies close and my AOBR rulebook closer.


 
   
Made in us
Hurr! Ogryn Bone 'Ead!





California

AV 12? I am looking at AV11.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Beat me to it.


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On topic though, is using the TW Assault Cannon any good?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2010/10/19 16:32:12


 
   
Made in us
Charing Cold One Knight




Lafayette, IN

Assault cannons were better last edition, for obvious reasons.

This edition, while they are decent, they are too expensive and too short ranged. SM already have a bunch of really good 24 inch range weapons, the razorback is one of the few platforms where you can get a cheap las/plas unit.

 
   
Made in us
Battleship Captain




Oregon

I think the Razorback works wonders with small squads like Devs, Long Fangs or Sternguard.

When in doubt, take the cheap TL Heavy Bolter I say.
   
Made in au
Devestating Grey Knight Dreadknight





I dont get the assault cannon remark. Assault cannons happen to be one of the most versatile weapons in 40k?

They are a prize av 14 hunter, they rape light infantry, can pass the armour of heavy infantry, and put wounds on MCs. Whats not to love?
   
Made in us
Xeno-Hating Inquisitorial Excruciator




Jaon wrote:I dont get the assault cannon remark. Assault cannons happen to be one of the most versatile weapons in 40k?

They are a prize av 14 hunter, they rape light infantry, can pass the armour of heavy infantry, and put wounds on MCs. Whats not to love?


Wait wait wait...

Assault cannons are not all that great against AV 14. A TL assault cannon should not get a rend the first time it fires at the said AV 14. The next time it should not get a rend. It should have to get three rends to get a pen. (Silly ryhmes) That means ~6 turns to get a pen. To kill the AV 14, thats 18 turns of shooting. Stick with melta.

On a different note, TL lascannons don't give you as much bang for the buck as Las-Plas, but against certain armies when your shooting really needs to count TL Las is more reliable.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/10/20 02:13:29


 
   
Made in ph
Stealthy Space Wolves Scout





For a gret deal of time spent in forums, I still dont get how the assault cannon is good against AV14.

There are 2 kinds of Dakka members: People who just think the game and people who actually play the game. Which one are you? 
   
Made in us
Araqiel




Yellow Submarine

Twin linked assault cannons are best for BA due to their Lucifer patterned chassis. My two favorites are twin linked lascannon and the coaxial lascannon/plasmagun but they need to be fielded in large numbers to be effective.

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Made in us
Stern Iron Priest with Thrall Bodyguard





Atlanta, Ga

As to the original topic...Razorbacks as a model...every Space Marine should buy the instead of the Rhino.

Why you ask? Because for $5 you get 2 vehicles...'nuff said.

Gameplay wise...they're good in the hands of a skilled player. Razorspam and all that aside...a few Razorbacks can mean the difference between your fireteams, combat squads etc. being out gunned and out ranged. You just need to play them right to get the most mileage.

As to the Assault Cannons...its only 1 of 3 items that belong on a Razorback, the other 2 have to deal with Lascannons and Stronos gak. The fact of the matter is, Assault Cannons are extremely versatile for reasons as mentioned before. The whole AV14 idea doesn't make much sense other than the fact that if all else fails, this weapon has the same likelihood of popping a Land Raider as a Krak Missile...


"United States Marine Corps: When it absolutely and positively has to be destroyed overnight"


"If all else fails, empty the magazine" 
   
Made in us
Lone Wolf Sentinel Pilot






Philadelphia

I don't understand the argument for the Las/Plas combo. You can't fire both in the same turn, unless you stay still. And isn't the point of a transport to move? I would rather the TL Lascannon. That way you can blow away anything at 48" instead of having to choose either Las or Plas.

 
   
Made in us
Lord Commander in a Plush Chair






Mustela wrote:
Jaon wrote:I dont get the assault cannon remark. Assault cannons happen to be one of the most versatile weapons in 40k?

They are a prize av 14 hunter, they rape light infantry, can pass the armour of heavy infantry, and put wounds on MCs. Whats not to love?


Wait wait wait...

Assault cannons are not all that great against AV 14. A TL assault cannon should not get a rend the first time it fires at the said AV 14. The next time it should not get a rend. It should have to get three rends to get a pen. (Silly ryhmes) That means ~6 turns to get a pen. To kill the AV 14, thats 18 turns of shooting. Stick with melta.

On a different note, TL lascannons don't give you as much bang for the buck as Las-Plas, but against certain armies when your shooting really needs to count TL Las is more reliable.


Where are you getting that Idea; you should get a rend in 1 out of every 6 hits; with Twin-linked Ass-cannons on a marine vehicle you should get 3.25 hits/turn. in 2 turns that would be 6.5 hits, or 1.083 rends, of those you will damage an AV 14 Vehicle 2/3 times; penetrating 1/3 times. so yes you need to rend, and to pen, and yes it is about 6 turns based soley on math if you are applying an increased step; but we should really go more by the percentages than the number of times you "have to shoot" I will do that when i get home from picking up the wife from work.

LordWynne; the razorback is an IFV not an APC.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/10/20 02:55:05


This is my Rulebook. There are many Like it, but this one is mine. Without me, my rulebook is useless. Without my rulebook, I am useless.
Stop looking for buzz words and start reading the whole sentences.



 
   
Made in us
Rogue Daemonhunter fueled by Chaos






Toledo, OH

I think that twin las is probably better more often than not, but the utility of las-plas goes up as the amount of Tyranids, Daemons, or drop podders goes up.
   
Made in us
Lord Commander in a Plush Chair






88.888%; this is the chance for 1 shot from a twin-linked assault cannon to hit.
16.666% of those hits will rend, so you have a 14.814% chance to rend with every shot.
Now you only have a 33.333% chance to penetrate with any given rending hit; so you have a total 4.938% chance to penetrate with any given shot from the assault cannon.

On any given turn yo have 4 chances to penetrate per each razorback; this does not however equate to a total 19.753% chance, because each instance of attempts there is still a 95.062% chance of failure. if you apply the Chance of failure to each attempt; you get about an 18.777% chance to penetrate each turn; You will never get a guaranteed 100% chance to penetrate, and my math is actually still a little off on the percentage/Turn(I believe it should be slightly lower but i do not possess the higher maths to work the equation; I only deal with probability in the Classical definition, which fails at continuous attempts; but at least I understand that).


Twin las and Las plas are much easier, since the Percentages per turn, are going to be equal to per attempt:
we still have 88.888% chance to hit with the twin las.
But now we get to go straight to a 1/6(16.666%) chance to penetrate with each hit; or a 14.814% chance to penetrate. That is as far as it goes, but you again only get 1 attempt/turn.

The las-plas is worse at penetrating AV14, as you are knocked down to a 66.666% chance to hit, with 16.666% of those hits penetrating for a total of an 11.111% chance, the Plasmaguns have a 0% chance to pen.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/10/20 04:44:55


This is my Rulebook. There are many Like it, but this one is mine. Without me, my rulebook is useless. Without my rulebook, I am useless.
Stop looking for buzz words and start reading the whole sentences.



 
   
Made in us
Boosting Space Marine Biker




Downers Grove, IL

PraetorDave wrote:I don't understand the argument for the Las/Plas combo. You can't fire both in the same turn, unless you stay still. And isn't the point of a transport to move? I would rather the TL Lascannon. That way you can blow away anything at 48" instead of having to choose either Las or Plas.


A gunline mech army doesn't need to move once its in position and that should only take one turn so for the rest of the game they can fire two weapons. If on the move they can put the hurt on elite infantry or MC's with the plasma or take a pot shot at a vehicle/MC at range. The lascannon is a heavy the plasma gun is an assault weapon and getting both on one vehicle makes up for loosing both from taking a 5 man marine squad. It takes two weapon destroyed's to take away their threat. And standing still several Las/plas razorbacks will put a big time hurt on the elite infantry and MC's that like to get in your face especially with nullzone (I personally have wiped out crap loads of nobs, terminators, demon and nid MC's in one round of shooting with this tactic and neutered my opponents main offense). For a slight less chance to hit with the las cannon you are upping your versatility quite a bit with no price increase.

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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





As far as I see it, the TLAC Raxorback averages just under two wounds per turn on most Big Bugs. Which is pretty excellent for 75 points.







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Made in us
Lord Commander in a Plush Chair






See this is exactly why i like the twin Ass-cannons; Same Price as Twin-las or las/plas; 1 more shot than Las/plas that stands still while moving, more accurate than the Las/plas(all 4 shots are T-L vs the 2 T-L + 1 normal), can do just as much damage as Las/plas to most things(sometimes statistically better). In fact the only thing it lacks is the range of the lascannon; but that is mitigated by the move-and-shoot nature(BAs get it even better moving 12" and shooting).

The only flaw is fighting the desire to add a Stormbolter as well(I like volumes of shots).

This is my Rulebook. There are many Like it, but this one is mine. Without me, my rulebook is useless. Without my rulebook, I am useless.
Stop looking for buzz words and start reading the whole sentences.



 
   
Made in us
Boosting Space Marine Biker




Downers Grove, IL

Yeah but the las/plas can start putting on wounds turn one so its a trade off.

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Lord Commander in a Plush Chair






12" deployment + 6" move = 30" to opposite table edge(on a standard table), so long as the enemy is 5.5" from their table edge your AC-razors are in range(bases being ~ an inch wide) It's all about your deployment. If you deploy first, you can deny your opponent much ground. If you deploy second you can force them to move in other directions, just to get away from your guns before you can bring them to bear.

Also getting a 24" gun 18" into the table turn 1; and laying down 4 shots with it that turn, makes many opponent weep. Especially when you do that with more than 1 of them.

For this exact reason I am willing to actually use the Leman Russ Punisher(maybe even 2!); 4 shots is good, 20 shots is better(AP won't matter because anything with a 4+ or worse would likely be getting that from Cover anyway, and anything with better than 4+ would still be getting their normal save).

This is my Rulebook. There are many Like it, but this one is mine. Without me, my rulebook is useless. Without my rulebook, I am useless.
Stop looking for buzz words and start reading the whole sentences.



 
   
Made in de
Boosting Black Templar Biker




To clean up with the tl ass cannon against av 14: The propability of destroying the vehicle (destroy/explode) is 3.2% per shot, immobilizing is 3.2% and weapon destroyed is 3.2% (glancing taken into account) so per shot with a tl AC you get a chance of about 10% to deal real damage to an AV14 vehicle, which is close to 40% in one turn of shooting. That'a about as good as it gets when firing at AV 14 from more than 12" away (yeah melta are clearly superior) plus the versatility of taking on any kind of infantry make the AC still a very good weapon. BUT it comes in very pricey compared to the efficiency.
If you want the Razorbacks as transports stick with the tl HB, thus it is less a threat and might be ignored, if you want them for fire support go Las/plas or AC.
my 2 cents





 
   
Made in ca
Decrepit Dakkanaut





FAV11, SAV11, and RAV10 so they can be wrecked by Heavy Bolters glancing them.

If they have the Lascannon and Twin-Linked Plasma Gun (or any other upgraded weapon) then they have the opportunity cost of about five extra Marines, and can only fire one weapon at combat speed, and none at cruising speed (Blood Angels notwithstanding). The Twin-Linked Heavy Bolters are cost-effective, and cheap for a reason.

They lose the Repair rule of the original Rhino, don't have fire points, and they have limit capacity.

Basically if they're effective, then they're inefficient, and if they're efficient, they're ineffective. I'd rather have a Rhino.
   
Made in us
Plastictrees






Salem, MA

When you figure in the cost of a tac squad riding in them, they become more efficient than full 10-man squads in rhinos. You get about 3 of the 75-point upgraded razorbacks with 5-man squads inside for about the same cost as 2 rhinos with 10-man squads. That's more heavy & special weapons, with the ability to move & shoot, and more maneuver elements at the cost of only 5 infantry bodies.

Also when you get up to 4+ razorbacks in one army, you hit an economy of scale similar to what you get with squadrons of speeders. A 75-point razorback is comparable to a speeder in firepower, but slower and with slightly more armor, and transport capability. So if you think speeders are effective, then you should think razorbacks are effective in about the same degree.

"The complete or partial destruction of the enemy must be regarded as the sole object of all engagements.... Direct annihilation of the enemy's forces must always be the dominant consideration." Karl von Clausewitz 
   
Made in ca
Decrepit Dakkanaut





I think I worked it out in another thread that a Tactical Squad (5) with a Razorback (Lascannon and Twin-Linked Plasma, Storm Bolter, Extra Armour) was equivalent in points to a Tactical Squad (10) with a Lascannon and Plasma Gun.

You get fewer scoring units, considerably less resistance to S5+ weapons, and more units (and firepower) that're easily suppressed via Shaken damage results. It's harder to pin two Combat Squads than it is to shake a Razorback.

The Infantry also has the ability to move or shoot, since they can fire their Plasma Gun on the move, along with all their Bolters (and Bolt Pistol for the Lascannon Specialist...), whereas a Razorback moving at combat speed only has the option of a Lascannon or a Twin-Linked Plasma Gun (which is pretty good if you're not facing infantry). The Infantry can't move as fast if they run, but they're more mobile through difficult terrain, and they can enter buildings, and climb ruins.

It's also easier for Infantry to get cover, and the Razorback can only sustain four damage results before a fifth wrecks it.
   
Made in us
Plastictrees






Salem, MA

Nurglitch wrote:I think I worked it out in another thread that a Tactical Squad (5) with a Razorback (Lascannon and Twin-Linked Plasma, Storm Bolter, Extra Armour) was equivalent in points to a Tactical Squad (10) with a Lascannon and Plasma Gun.


I must have missed that thread but it looks like you're saying that a razorback with 25 points of unnecessary upgrades that I would never take in actual gameplay is equivalent to a dismounted tac squad that I would never take in actual gameplay? I'm confused about where this argument is going.

Nurglitch wrote:
You get fewer scoring units, considerably less resistance to S5+ weapons, and more units (and firepower) that're easily suppressed via Shaken damage results. It's harder to pin two Combat Squads than it is to shake a Razorback.


Right, which is why I compared the 2 rhino-mounted squads to 3 razorback squads for about the same cost Because that's more like what you would have to choose between in an actual army list. You can make up any kind of hypothetical situation that puts razorbacks at a comparative disadvantage, but the 100-point razorback and 10-man lasplas squads are both suboptimal for reasons completely unrelated to how they compare with each other.

But let's go ahead and compare the apples with the oranges and see where we wind up.

Nurglitch wrote:
The Infantry also has the ability to move or shoot, since they can fire their Plasma Gun on the move, along with all their Bolters (and Bolt Pistol for the Lascannon Specialist...), whereas a Razorback moving at combat speed only has the option of a Lascannon or a Twin-Linked Plasma Gun (which is pretty good if you're not facing infantry). The Infantry can't move as fast if they run, but they're more mobile through difficult terrain, and they can enter buildings, and climb ruins. It's also easier for Infantry to get cover, and the Razorback can only sustain four damage results before a fifth wrecks it.


So you're saying that a razorback can't do things it's not designed for? It's just as easy for me to point out that a razor does a better job of the things it does well. For example, in dawn of war or when entering from reserve, a razorback can roll on the table and shoot on the turn it arrives (using searchlights from advance vehicles in DoW). It can close range and fire on something that's trying to outrange it, or roll back to avoid shorter-ranged shots from things that are trying to close with it. Infantry heavies can't do any of those things.

So razorbacks are better than infantry at things razorbacks do well, and infantry is better than razorbacks at things infantry does well. I still don't see where this comparison is supposed to get us. Unless you're comparing infantry armies with mech armies maybe? But that's not specific to razorbacks.

"The complete or partial destruction of the enemy must be regarded as the sole object of all engagements.... Direct annihilation of the enemy's forces must always be the dominant consideration." Karl von Clausewitz 
   
Made in ca
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Flavius Infernus:

I think you're confused because the argument isn't about what you would take...
   
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Plastictrees






Salem, MA

So the argument is that a razorback is not effective because a dismounted tac squad does infantry stuff better, for the same cost if you inflate the price of the razorback and discount the infantry inside?

Please clarify. I don't want to be strawmanning here.

"The complete or partial destruction of the enemy must be regarded as the sole object of all engagements.... Direct annihilation of the enemy's forces must always be the dominant consideration." Karl von Clausewitz 
   
Made in ca
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Clarification: Razorbacks are alright, not great, and if you have the points available you're better off with a full squad in a Rhino.
   
Made in gb
Servoarm Flailing Magos





I think for a C:SM army Rhinos are better.

For a C:SW army Razors are better.

But I think for 40pts (codex not on me most likely wrong) a TLHB and transport for 6 dudes isn't too bad.

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