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continued from this thread

Daemonhound63 wrote: @everyone DoW rules state one HQ unit and Eldar codex says farseer and warlocks are one so they equal 1 making all of them legit.

People that disagree please give me supporting evidence that you can show me please.

Page 92 MULTIPLE UNIT CHOICES
Note that occasionally the Codexes allow the player to includes several units in his army at the cost of a single force organisation slot (like dedicated transports, etc.). Apart from being bought as a single choice, these units operate and counts as separate units in all respects.

Page 93 in the dawn of war box. "Troops and HQ units that can infiltrate, can do so, as long as at the end of deployment the player still has a maximum of one HQ and two Troops units on the table."

Yes, Warlocks and Farseers are NOT a retinue.

They may be one *choice*, but that is irrelevant.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Yes, Warlocks and Farseers are NOT a retinue.

They may be one *choice*, but that is irrelevant.

This +1.

You cannot deploy a Farseer and Warlocks in DoW, the same way you can't deploy a Tyrant + Guard or Captain + Command Squad.

It's not that difficult...

Yeah, it's a problem for seer councils. Either the farseer or the warlocks get to deploy in Dawn of War. I play jetseer council and it's been a pain for me several times.

Gwar! wrote:
You cannot deploy a Farseer and Warlocks in DoW, the same way you can't deploy a Tyrant + Guard or Captain + Command Squad.

It's not that difficult...

Hmmm... I hadn't realized how crappy DoW deployment actually is. Forcing units not to go with their quasi-retinue or their transports. Does it make sense to house rule it so that you can deploy 1 HQ choice and 2 troop choices, or is there something broken that could take unfair advantage of this change?

Also, does a dedicated transport always count as a troop unit, or does it count as a unit of the same time as the unit it is transporting?

Example: Can I field a squad of Warlocks (and not a Farseer) with their transport + 1 other troop unit?

Grakmar wrote:

Gwar! wrote:
You cannot deploy a Farseer and Warlocks in DoW, the same way you can't deploy a Tyrant + Guard or Captain + Command Squad.

It's not that difficult...

Hmmm... I hadn't realized how crappy DoW deployment actually is. Forcing units not to go with their quasi-retinue or their transports. Does it make sense to house rule it so that you can deploy 1 HQ choice and 2 troop choices, or is there something broken that could take unfair advantage of this change?

Also, does a dedicated transport always count as a troop unit, or does it count as a unit of the same time as the unit it is transporting?

Example: Can I field a squad of Warlocks (and not a Farseer) with their transport + 1 other troop unit?

IG Platoons.

I get to deploy 10 Grey Hunters and a Rhino, you get to deploy close to 200 models with up to 20 Chimeras.

And a DT counts as the FoC it is bought for, but doesn't take up the slot. So no, you can't deploy Warlocks + Transport either and a Troops unit with a Transport are two units.

Gwar! wrote:IG Platoons.

I get to deploy 10 Grey Hunters and a Rhino, you get to deploy close to 200 models with up to 20 Chimeras.

Ah, good point. Ok, I guess I'll have to live with this.

Gwar! wrote:And a DT counts as the FoC it is bought for, but doesn't take up the slot. So no, you can't deploy Warlocks + Transport either and a Troops unit with a Transport are two units.

Ok, but it would be totally legit to field:

Warlocks, DA squad, WS purchased for DA without DA in it. Then, in turn 1, toss the warlocks inside the DA's WS and leave the DAs to wait for the Warlock's WS to show up.

Right?

Grakmar wrote:Also, does a dedicated transport always count as a troop unit, or does it count as a unit of the same time as the unit it is transporting?

Page 87 Dedicated transports says counts as same FOC as the unit it was bought for.

@your last post: yes, that's fine.

Grakmar wrote:Ok, but it would be totally legit to field:

Warlocks, DA squad, WS purchased for DA without DA in it. Then, in turn 1, toss the warlocks inside the DA's WS and leave the DAs to wait for the Warlock's WS to show up.

Right?

Correct.

It's even not that risky since Night Fight protects them significantly.

So what is the difference between a unit and a choice for clearity reason on DoW.

Daemonhound63 wrote:So what is the difference between a unit and a choice for clearity reason on DoW.

The same difference that it is everywhere else.

A Choice is something that uses a single FoC slot (for example, a Imperial Guard Platoon).

A unit is, well, a unit. A Platoon is made up of between 3 and 20 Units, all of which are a single Troops choice.

When you read Dawn of War and then read Annihilation mission, you see that they both say UNIT.

Think of Kill Points when you deploy Dawn of War. You can deploy one HQ Kill Point and up to two Troop Kill Points.

This means that you cannot deploy razor back + combat squad a tactical squad, as that is 3 troops. Ravenwing really hate Dawn of war because a full Ravenwing squad (6 bikes, attack bike and speeder) hit the table and separate into bikes, attack bike and speeder; 3 units

Example:
Unit + dedicated Transport = 1 FO choice and 2 units.

ryan3740 wrote:When you read Dawn of War and then read Annihilation mission, you see that they both say UNIT.

Think of Kill Points when you deploy Dawn of War. You can deploy one HQ Kill Point and up to two Troop Kill Points.


This means that you cannot deploy razor back + combat squad a tactical squad, as that is 3 troops.

I don't think that's actually a good simplification. Because an IG blob squad is only 1 Kill Point, but it can't be deployed at the start of DoW.

Grakmar wrote:it can't be deployed at the start of DoW.

It can as it can be a single unit from the troops FO slot.

Gwar! wrote:

Daemonhound63 wrote:So what is the difference between a unit and a choice for clearity reason on DoW.

The same difference that it is everywhere else.

A Choice is something that uses a single FoC slot (for example, a Imperial Guard Platoon).

A unit is, well, a unit. A Platoon is made up of between 3 and 20 Units, all of which are a single Troops choice.

Yeah, but in my defense as to retinue. Where do they state choice = slot. Choice could = unit.

"The decision to form Combined Squads must be made at deployment. If the IG player wishes to deploy his forces in this way then any Infantry Squad may join another Infantyr Squad from the same platton. For example, an Infantry Platoon consisting of a Platoon Command Squad and three ten-man infantry squads can instead choose to deploy as a Platoon Command Squad and a single thirty-man Infantry Squad."

That's two troop UNITS.

Daemonhound63 wrote:Yeah, but in my defense as to retinue. Where do they state choice = slot. Choice could = unit.

Where does it say Choice = Unit? Nowhere, so it doesn't mean that.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Grakmar wrote:I don't think that's actually a good simplification. Because an IG blob squad is only 1 Kill Point, but it can't be deployed at the start of DoW.

Actually, you can.

That's one of the points of Blob Squads.

Grakmar wrote:

Gwar! wrote:
You cannot deploy a Farseer and Warlocks in DoW, the same way you can't deploy a Tyrant + Guard or Captain + Command Squad.

It's not that difficult...

Hmmm... I hadn't realized how crappy DoW deployment actually is. Forcing units not to go with their quasi-retinue or their transports. Does it make sense to house rule it so that you can deploy 1 HQ choice and 2 troop choices, or is there something broken that could take unfair advantage of this change?

Also, does a dedicated transport always count as a troop unit, or does it count as a unit of the same time as the unit it is transporting?

Example: Can I field a squad of Warlocks (and not a Farseer) with their transport + 1 other troop unit?

No, it doesn't make sense to houserule it. Or do you really want an IG player to be able to completely deploy two maxed out Infantry platoons in Dawn of War? Let's see, one platoon is 6 chimeras, 55 man blob (or 5 x 11-man squads), platoon command, 5 Heavy Weapon squads, 2 Special Weapon squads and a squad of Conscripts with up to 50 models in it.

A transport always counts as the same force org element as the unit it was bought for. So no, you cannot field the Warlocks and their ride as that would be two HQ units.

kirsanth wrote:

Grakmar wrote:it can't be deployed at the start of DoW.

It can as it can be a single unit from the troops FO slot.

Gotcha!

But, now I'm confused as to Farseer+Warlocks again.

If a Farseer deploys with his squad of Warlocks, they're 1 unit. And, they're all HQ choices, so why don't they count as "1 HQ unit"?

Because they are two separate units. It's really that simple. Any IC can join a unit and for most game purposes it will count as a single unit. But not for DoW deployment. The ONLY time an IC can deploy in DoW with another "HQ" unit is if that unit is a retinue that belongs to that IC.

Because they are not 1 unit.

The farseer does not have to join them--and without joining they are 2 units.

IG actually have a rule that lets them declare the blob to be a single unit for all game purposes.

Editing to add:
This makes me realize I have put Swarmlord + Tyrant Guard down together in DoW.
That is incorrect, it seems.

Oops.

Yeah but neither is choice = slot. so where is evidence to support.

Grakmar wrote:If a Farseer deploys with his squad of Warlocks, they're 1 unit. And, they're all HQ choices, so why don't they count as "1 HQ unit"?

One unit (squad), but as you said, *choices* / each UNIT is a Kill Point.

Blame GW for saying, "this is a UNIT, combined they're a UNIT..."

It's like the Smurf langauge; all nouns are "Smurf"s

Daemonhound, please read the first post in this thread again. Specifically the RULES about multiple unit selections. Read that underlined part again and again unit it sinks in. Separate UNITs means two UNITS.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Grakmar wrote:If my IC is joined with a squad of Warlocks, that is one unit. Why doesn't this apply to DoW?

How many kill points is that?

don_mondo wrote:Because they are two separate units. It's really that simple. Any IC can join a unit and for most game purposes it will count as a single unit. But not for DoW deployment. The ONLY time an IC can deploy in DoW with another "HQ" unit is if that unit is a retinue that belongs to that IC.

But, where are you getting this from? I've re-read DoW rules a few times now, and don't see where it says this.

If my IC is joined with a squad of Warlocks, that is one unit. Why doesn't this apply to DoW?

Daemonhound63 wrote:Yeah but neither is choice = slot.

Unless I missunderstood what you wrote, that is exactly the point.

You do not field a slot. You field units that (sometimes) take a slot.

And you are only allowed to put 1 HQ unit down.

Warlocks are a unit.
Farseers are a unit.

Together they are one choice for an HQ slot.

You can admittedly, later in the game join the IC to the unit, but you are only given permission to put a single unit from any HQ options on the table.

Putting 2 HQ units down regardless of what FO slots they come from you are going against the rules for DoW.

The reason warlock + farseer doesnt work is because, although they are one unit when the game starts, they are NOT one unit until that point - which is after deployment.

Daemonhound - this has nothing to do with brainwashign Eldar players, but reading the rules.

You are told that dedicated transports and their unit count as one *choice*, yet they are 2 *units*

Thus, choice /= unit. That is it.

nosferatu1001 wrote:The reason warlock + farseer doesnt work is because, although they are one unit when the game starts, they are NOT one unit until that point - which is after deployment.

Gotcha! Thanks, and sorry if I seemed a bit obtuse. I get it now!

So do the wolf guard pack start seperate from the wolf guard battle leader?

Wolf Guard are elite.

If they are assigned to Lead another unit, then they count as part of that unit for all purposes. It's the first question in the SW FAQ.