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Question:

Would you pay per hour to play on tables that had awesome terrain run by a knowlegable staff and if so what would you pay to play on it. Also what would you want to see in a shop that offered such a great environment?

I have be in retail management for 12 years and am really starting to consider doing this as my own business venture.

If you think that it is a stupid idea, let me know. I am looking for honest "NO HOLDS BARRED" answers!!!

Thanks,
Mike

If this is in the wrong spot, sorry and please move

Probably not. Though I'd pay for events.

Good idea. How would you set your rates?

Per points fielded? Or players?

Not enough to make it worth your while. It is already expensive enough of a hobby. Are you planning on just selling table space?

akira5665 wrote:Good idea. How would you set your rates?

Per points fielded? Or players?

I would say per hour and per table, making it less expensive the more people play. Sort of like a Poolhall but for table top games

brettz123 wrote:Not enough to make it worth your while. It is already expensive enough of a hobby. Are you planning on just selling table space?

Thanks for the comment, and yes just playing per hour. I think people like to play on nice tables and also a competitive environment, but friendly to beginners. I know lots of people that HATE playing at GW stores because of all the little kids and pushy sales people.

Thanks again,
Mike

madmartykmf wrote:

akira5665 wrote:Good idea. How would you set your rates?

Per points fielded? Or players?

I would say per hour and per table, making it less expensive the more people play. Sort of like a Poolhall but for table top games

brettz123 wrote:Not enough to make it worth your while. It is already expensive enough of a hobby. Are you planning on just selling table space?

Thanks for the comment, and yes just playing per hour. I think people like to play on nice tables and also a competitive environment, but friendly to beginners. I know lots of people that HATE playing at GW stores because of all the little kids and pushy sales people.

Thanks again,
Mike

Are you located in an area that has a large population? How much do you want to charge? How often do you think people will play on your tables? How much will your rent be? Most places I have been in medium sized metropolitan areas have had gaming groups of about 10-15 people. These people tend to only play once or twice a week. How are you going to fill up the tables all week?

It would only be open on the weekends. This is going to be a break even investment, that may one day be my full time job. This thread is not about my business model, it iis about would you pay to play and what would you like to see.

Love the comments. Keep um coming,
Mike

You see, we can't judge if we would unless we know how much it would be.

How much per hour? Most of us don't have any moral problems with paying money for table's that we don't own.

Karon wrote:You see, we can't judge if we would unless we know how much it would be.

How much per hour? Most of us don't have any moral problems with paying money for table's that we don't own.

Oh no, no , no, don't get me wrong I love the feedback but the point is to ask you guys these questions. So lets look at it like this:

Questions:

1) How much would you be willing to pay per hour? or how would you want to pay?

2) What would you want or expect for the club to keep you coming back?

3) Ultimately would you come and pay to play? (take for granted clean, neat, safe store with sweet tables let's say about 8 total)

Keep it coming and don't hold back,

Mike

I wouldn't pay for table space. AND I would stop buying at that store.

People playing in your store is a way of advertising a game.

frgsinwntr wrote:I wouldn't pay for table space. AND I would stop buying at that store.

People playing in your store is a way of advertising a game.

But that is the point I wouldn't opening a store! It is like a poolhall, just come and play and have fun. No pushy sales people, and no bratty kids ( and kids would be welcome just not "THAT KID" ) So the point of you getting upset and "I would stop buying at that store", is moot point. So thank you for your comment but I think you misunderstand what I would be doing. A place to play and just enjoy the game.

Thanks again and keep um coming,
Mike

I'm going to second what frgsinwntr said. I would not frequent a store that charges me to play casually. However I will and do pay for tournements and conventions.

madmartykmf wrote:

frgsinwntr wrote:I wouldn't pay for table space. AND I would stop buying at that store.

People playing in your store is a way of advertising a game.

But that is the point I wouldn't opening a store! It is like a poolhall, just come and play and have fun. No pushy sales people, and no bratty kids ( and kids would be welcome just not "THAT KID" ) So the point of you getting upset and "I would stop buying at that store", is moot point. So thank you for your comment but I think you misunderstand what I would be doing. A place to play and just enjoy the game.

Thanks again and keep um coming,
Mike

? Upset?

I was just answering your question.

Are there that many people in your area where you'd have a profitable business model doing this?

it sounds like your talking about a club... And usually clubs are member driven

madmartykmf wrote:

Karon wrote:You see, we can't judge if we would unless we know how much it would be.

How much per hour? Most of us don't have any moral problems with paying money for table's that we don't own.

Oh no, no , no, don't get me wrong I love the feedback but the point is to ask you guys these questions. So lets look at it like this:

Questions:

1) How much would you be willing to pay per hour? or how would you want to pay?

2) What would you want or expect for the club to keep you coming back?

3) Ultimately would you come and pay to play? (take for granted clean, neat, safe store with sweet tables let's say about 8 total)

Keep it coming and don't hold back,

Mike

Answers:

1) On VERY nice tables that are different from what you normally see I would be willing to pay $2-$3 one in a while (like maybe once a month)

2) I would expect new tables every once in a while because playing on the same stuff would get boring. The tables would also need to be different in the first place. Things like a full 3-dimensional space hulk board would get me in once in a while while a standard grass board wouldn't get me in ever.

3) Maybe but you still haven't told us how much you plan on charging. This is important because you need to know how much to charge in order to break even and we need to know what that number is. Without that the discussion isn't all that worthwhile.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

madmartykmf wrote:It would only be open on the weekends. This is going to be a break even investment, that may one day be my full time job. This thread is not about my business model, it iis about would you pay to play and what would you like to see.

Love the comments. Keep um coming,
Mike

I am not asking about your business model I am trying to get you to think about what you need to charge to stay around. If you can't tell use a bottom line of what you need to charge then we can't give you an honest answer. Obviously everyone would pay a penny to play on really nice boards but how many would pay $3.00 or even $10.00?

frgsinwntr wrote:

madmartykmf wrote:

frgsinwntr wrote:I wouldn't pay for table space. AND I would stop buying at that store.

People playing in your store is a way of advertising a game.

But that is the point I wouldn't opening a store! It is like a poolhall, just come and play and have fun. No pushy sales people, and no bratty kids ( and kids would be welcome just not "THAT KID" ) So the point of you getting upset and "I would stop buying at that store", is moot point. So thank you for your comment but I think you misunderstand what I would be doing. A place to play and just enjoy the game.

Thanks again and keep um coming,
Mike

? Upset?

I was just answering your question.

Are there that many people in your area where you'd have a profitable business model doing this?

HAHAHA, I guess I just read it in a way that sounded like you were upset. Just goes to show you the power on text. Also I am only looking at a break even at first. I am not interested in making this my full time job. And Yes, I think I would have a good amount of people since I live in the Baltimore/DC Metro Area. Again I am only looking for what you would want to see in the type of place and would you go.

Thanks again

Catyrpelius wrote:it sounds like your talking about a club... And usually clubs are member driven

Semantics for the 500 Alex... just kidding. Are you saying that a membership to a club in lieu of a pay to play? I am kidda liking that idea. Still have an hourly rate but offer benefits for members like free play time and monthly prizes. I like were you head is Catyrelius


Thanks again and please keep the comments coming,

Mike





Automatically Appended Next Post:

brettz123 wrote:

madmartykmf wrote:

Karon wrote:You see, we can't judge if we would unless we know how much it would be.

How much per hour? Most of us don't have any moral problems with paying money for table's that we don't own.

Oh no, no , no, don't get me wrong I love the feedback but the point is to ask you guys these questions. So lets look at it like this:

Questions:

1) How much would you be willing to pay per hour? or how would you want to pay?

2) What would you want or expect for the club to keep you coming back?

3) Ultimately would you come and pay to play? (take for granted clean, neat, safe store with sweet tables let's say about 8 total)

Keep it coming and don't hold back,

Mike

Answers:

1) On VERY nice tables that are different from what you normally see I would be willing to pay $2-$3 one in a while (like maybe once a month)

2) I would expect new tables every once in a while because playing on the same stuff would get boring. The tables would also need to be different in the first place. Things like a full 3-dimensional space hulk board would get me in once in a while while a standard grass board wouldn't get me in ever.

3) Maybe but you still haven't told us how much you plan on charging. This is important because you need to know how much to charge in order to break even and we need to know what that number is. Without that the discussion isn't all that worthwhile.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

madmartykmf wrote:It would only be open on the weekends. This is going to be a break even investment, that may one day be my full time job. This thread is not about my business model, it iis about would you pay to play and what would you like to see.

Love the comments. Keep um coming,
Mike

I am not asking about your business model I am trying to get you to think about what you need to charge to stay around. If you can't tell use a bottom line of what you need to charge then we can't give you an honest answer. Obviously everyone would pay a penny to play on really nice boards but how many would pay $3.00 or even $10.00?

Lets say 5 bucks an hour

I'd say, overall, no. There are so many places where I can go play for free. You'd have to compete with that, firstly.

Secondly, I'm not a fan of the hourly rate, for a number of reasons. First, let's say Little Timmy Firepants got 10 bucks from mommy for allowance, and for the purposes of this example, one hour of table time is 10bucks. Well, Timy here doesn't know his rules very well, and realistically, a game for him is going to take 2 hours. No one's going to like a game ending prematurely because of budgeting concerns, be it Timmy with $10 pocket money, or Mr. Joe, whose wife says he get's to spend 30 dollars a week on his stupid toys.

Secondly, a game like this has two many "time wasters" that detract from actual game time. Rules arguments, getting armies out/put away and Ork movement phases. If I'm going up against a huge army, I'm getting less actual game time (thus, value) because of somebody else. It's not something I'd like to have to deal with, as a consumer.

Putting these issues aside, and assuming that I'd be okay paying to use a table, this is what I'd expect:

-Seats around the table. If I'm going to be at this for a while, I want somewhere to rest my fat gamer ass.

-Space around the table. I don't want to have to rub up against another fat gamer ass just to outflank some Wolf Scouts.

-Side tables. By this I mean non-gaming table space to have books, models not in play, drinks, and maybe even a nice clear space to roll dice.

-Nice tables. By this I mean, I'm not going to pay to borrow your flocked slab of plywood. I'm talking well thought out, custom made foam boards with hills and dips and whatnot. And then I want that painted and flocked. Or, at the very least, Realm of Battle boards.

-Nice terrain and lots of it. If I'm paying to use it, I want it well painted, well built, diverse, and plentiful. If people are renting the table, they should be able to cover it in cool terrain. There should never be any jealousy because the next table over snagged the one Fortress of Redemption in the store, for example. It should also be diverse. There shouldn't be that one building that everyone hates. It should never be, "Oh, great. My Long Fangs are stuck in the L shaped ruin. Again." More than that, have more than just ruins and craters lying around. The 40K rulebook, for example, has rules for ruins, buildings, area terrain, impassible terrain, dangerous terrain, water and roads. These should all be amply represented, so that games are never "just another battle in an Imperial city."

It's a tall order to do all that. In my mind, it stems from the fact that there are so many places that are free to play, and since it's free, I'm willing to put up with some things. If I'm paying for it, it had better be spectacular.

Commander Endova wrote:I'd say, overall, no. There are so many places where I can go play for free. You'd have to compete with that, firstly.

Secondly, I'm not a fan of the hourly rate, for a number of reasons. First, let's say Little Timmy Firepants got 10 bucks from mommy for allowance, and for the purposes of this example, one hour of table time is 10bucks. Well, Timy here doesn't know his rules very well, and realistically, a game for him is going to take 2 hours. No one's going to like a game ending prematurely because of budgeting concerns, be it Timmy with $10 pocket money, or Mr. Joe, whose wife says he get's to spend 30 dollars a week on his stupid toys.

Secondly, a game like this has two many "time wasters" that detract from actual game time. Rules arguments, getting armies out/put away and Ork movement phases. If I'm going up against a huge army, I'm getting less actual game time (thus, value) because of somebody else. It's not something I'd like to have to deal with, as a consumer.

Putting these issues aside, and assuming that I'd be okay paying to use a table, this is what I'd expect:

-Seats around the table. If I'm going to be at this for a while, I want somewhere to rest my fat gamer ass.

-Space around the table. I don't want to have to rub up against another fat gamer ass just to outflank some Wolf Scouts.

-Side tables. By this I mean non-gaming table space to have books, models not in play, drinks, and maybe even a nice clear space to roll dice.

-Nice tables. By this I mean, I'm not going to pay to borrow your flocked slab of plywood. I'm talking well thought out, custom made foam boards with hills and dips and whatnot. And then I want that painted and flocked. Or, at the very least, Realm of Battle boards.

-Nice terrain and lots of it. If I'm paying to use it, I want it well painted, well built, diverse, and plentiful. If people are renting the table, they should be able to cover it in cool terrain. There should never be any jealousy because the next table over snagged the one Fortress of Redemption in the store, for example. It should also be diverse. There shouldn't be that one building that everyone hates. It should never be, "Oh, great. My Long Fangs are stuck in the L shaped ruin. Again." More than that, have more than just ruins and craters lying around. The 40K rulebook, for example, has rules for ruins, buildings, area terrain, impassible terrain, dangerous terrain, water and roads. These should all be amply represented, so that games are never "just another battle in an Imperial city."

It's a tall order to do all that. In my mind, it stems from the fact that there are so many places that are free to play, and since it's free, I'm willing to put up with some things. If I'm paying for it, it had better be spectacular.

THANK YOU!

I already pay to play by buying the models and rulebooks. If I start getting charged for table space that's when I build my own table to play on and start buying exclusively from online discounters.

Even if they are the greatest, most beautiful tables ever built, I still wouldn't pay because those types of boards tend to not be very playable...like the crowded city boards or jungle boards that never have clear LOS to anything (so playing a shooty army means you automatically lose). They may look good, but not worth paying to play on unless you purposely built your army to take advantage of it.

And I really don't see this working out if you aren't talking about an actual store, and just a room with tables to play on. The price per hour must be pretty ridiculous if there's nothing else to drive sales.

Lets say 5 bucks an hour

No. feth no.

I would say an hourly rate isn't going to cut it. Someone who plays a horde army is going to pay more than the two mech guys playing each other. If you're going to charge, charge a monthly or daily fee.

I want to see an example of this terrain that's so awesome that it's worth a $5/hour charge. Nothing is good enough to warrant $10-15 per game (or maybe even $20, since I'm kind of a slow player).

If you had simple a clean, mature place that had an anti- d-bag button, I'd potentially pay up to $10 / hour (for the table).

If you add additional amenities, such as events, help with rules, and most important a positive friendly atmosphere, it is possible $15 - $20 / table / hour. Add beer, or allow BYO, and that is a guarantee.

Honestly most of the folks in my local area mostly like to sit around, paint, and put together models. I would be OK with paying a couple dollars to hang out and work on my models. I usually bring all my own stuff, so all I need is a table, light, a stool and some company.

I'm thinking a parallel may be movie theaters. Generic, I'm willing to pay the standard rate, maybe. Luxurious and unique, I'd pay a lot, e.g.




Note: I'm not saying you need to do that level of service, but only making the point that people will pay for something that is worth it. We're probably having a hard time understanding the details of what you are offering. No details means it is hard to know the value and thus say what we're willing to pay.

Edit: Ninja'd so removed meaningless stuff

mattyboy22 wrote:I would say an hourly rate isn't going to cut it. Someone who plays a horde army is going to pay more than the two mech guys playing each other. If you're going to charge, charge a monthly or daily fee.

Sidstyler wrote:I want to see an example of this terrain that's so awesome that it's worth a $5/hour charge. Nothing is good enough to warrant $10-15 per game (or maybe even $20, since I'm kind of a slow player).

Thanks guys this is perfect feedback. Also Sidstyler you can check my terrain thread link in my signature, "Awesome" is a subjective adjective.

I hope that this does not turn into a you versus me thread. I am just looking for open feedback for an Idea I have been toying with. This open dialogue has been fun but I think I have my answer for this one! Case closed! I will just have to have my friends over to play on my table and make THEM buy the beer!

Thanks to all your comments and your honest feedback.

Mike

Hello Mike.

No, I wouldn't and here is why.

First, The table does not make the quality of the game, but the atmosphere and the people you are playing with.

Second, when I was a kid I used to play at a pool halll, go in and play snooker as well. But I didn't owna a snooker or pool table at home, but I can play at home or for free elsewhere

Third s to the last point I often offset my cost through gambling. If/when this would start in your store, then people would retreat from it simply because of the atmosphere of the FLGS.

The only hope I would see for success if you had "pro" player play there exclusively, and then you may have to allow them to play for free in order to draw a crowd. Weekly organized tournament would be a must to draw folks as well.

In a store, I don't think you should ever charge the customers to play on your tables. That's the short answer. The Why of it is something I could spend an hour talking about. You're in MD, I'm in Philly. You bring the beer.

In a club, you need membership with a regular fee to drive the the place. Paying membership gives you a budget to work from, and people with a vested interest in their club.

Charging by the hour like a pool hall won't work. For one, how many pool halls do you see around? Secondly, pool halls generally have beer.

Lets say each player ponys up 2 bucks an hour. 1/2 the tables get used 5 days a week for four hours. 3/4 of them for 8 hours on weekends. That's not a lot of money to run a business on. But it's a realistic estimate.

If you add additional amenities, such as events, help with rules, and most important a positive friendly atmosphere, it is possible $15 - $20 / table / hour. Add beer, or allow BYO, and that is a guarantee.

Events, staff with good rules knowledge, and a positive, friendly atmosphere are all things that should be standard, not extra gak I have to pay for. $20/hour for that is not only unreasonable, but I'd dare to call it insane. Who in the hell is willing to pay that much money just to play, on top of the already prohibitive cost of starting an army up to begin with?

I don't care if the tables look awesome, I don't care if the place is mature (it should be anyway), I don't even care if they have someone wipe your ass for you in the bathroom (which at $20/hour they really should), $20/hour to play 40k is just not worth it. If I'm going to be spending that much money to nerd out then I think I'd much rather go out and do something more socially acceptable, like going to the bar or a strip club. Hell, that might actually be cheaper.


Also, "case closed"? This didn't even make it to two pages and you've already reached a decision? It didn't even seem like we got a discussion started yet.

Third s to the last point I often offset my cost through gambling

That's something I didn't even think about, I really don't want to go to the store and have guys pressuring me to take bets and pay for their table time if I lose. That's a good way to start fist fights, especially if it's found out later on that said player was cheating or bending the rules in his favor...

Sidstyler wrote:

If you add additional amenities, such as events, help with rules, and most important a positive friendly atmosphere, it is possible $15 - $20 / table / hour. Add beer, or allow BYO, and that is a guarantee.

Events, staff with good rules knowledge, and a positive, friendly atmosphere are all things that should be standard, not extra gak I have to pay for. $20/hour for that is not only unreasonable, but I'd dare to call it insane. Who in the hell is willing to pay that much money just to play, on top of the already prohibitive cost of starting an army up to begin with?

I don't care if the tables look awesome, I don't care if the place is mature (it should be anyway), I don't even care if they have someone wipe your ass for you in the bathroom (which at $20/hour they really should), $20/hour to play 40k is just not worth it. If I'm going to be spending that much money to nerd out then I think I'd much rather go out and do something more socially acceptable, like going to the bar or a strip club. Hell, that might actually be cheaper.


Also, "case closed"? This didn't even make it to two pages and you've already reached a decision? It didn't even seem like we got a discussion started yet.

Third s to the last point I often offset my cost through gambling

That's something I didn't even think about, I really don't want to go to the store and have guys pressuring me to take bets and pay for their table time if I lose. That's a good way to start fist fights, especially if it's found out later on that said player was cheating or bending the rules in his favor...

Thank you for your passion. I was only looking for a sampling of opinions on this subject not all 35000 Dakka members ideas. Case closed because I have no interest I dragging this one out longer. As this is an open forum please feel free to continue the debate. As for me until I win the lottery and do this for free, well it will have to remain a dream.

Mike

I know the case is closed but i though i'd throw my two cents in.

I would be willing to pay to play. But on several conditions.

1. The table would have to be exteremly nice, not something i could build at my house. I'm talking warhammer world stuff, with crashed titans on it, imperial sector walls, maybe built in lighting. Basically the stuff you see in white dwarf and such. A primo table.

2. Lots of space to play. There's nothing i hate more than when a store crams as much table space into the play area as they can, so i'm constantly bumping into the people playing at the table behind me, or pinned between a table and a wall. I hate when tables are touching and you have dice from someone else's game rolling onto your table, or their books and papers creeping over the line. Drives me nuts.

3. The table needs to have all the amenties built into it. Shelves for models, slots for books and paper, a dice rolling area that's off the table.

4. Nice chairs to sit on, if i'm paying to play i'm not going to stand.

So i guess if i could pay to play i'd want to be playing on the sultan gaming table on terrain built by master terrain makers. haha. not too much to ask is it?

Also as a side note i've often wished that game stores had rental armies. So if i feel like playing DE or chaos or IG i could just rent the army for the afternoon play a game and be done with it instead of buying, building and painting a whole army.

I would but only on certain conditions.

1. It was popular and local, I would not want to travel 45 minutes on a bus to get an empty store.

2. It was run properly, not like some backshop bar with crap all over the place and the owner not appearing because they didnt feel like it.

3. It had some form of a bar, even just selling fizzy juice or what ever. I only play in friends houses and it really helps to be able to eat/drink when I want with no restrictions.

However I see this as something better run at night during the weekdays as I dont see children or teenagers coming along when they would just as happily play in GW or there garage floor. And Others may want there Saturdays to...god forbid, take out there wife for a meal

madmartykmf wrote:Thank you for your passion. I was only looking for a sampling of opinions on this subject not all 35000 Dakka members ideas. Case closed because I have no interest I dragging this one out longer. As this is an open forum please feel free to continue the debate. As for me until I win the lottery and do this for free, well it will have to remain a dream.

Mike

Well that was just my opinion. A guy posted in this same thread saying that everyone he knew would gladly pay $20/hour (Jesus) to play in what I'm unofficially dubbing the "nerd hall", so I guess you never really know if the idea will take off or not unless you find out how many people are like that in your area.

Personally though I just don't see how it would be a profitable venture. There just aren't that many 40k players in any one area, especially that many that are willing to pay to play, to pay for rent and staff wages. Indie stores often fail because they aren't profitable and that's with the retail aspect. It's not a bad idea, and despite my extremely negative reaction here even I might have given something like it a try if it weren't too expensive ($5/hour could just be split between each player, so you're spending less than $10 to play an average 40k game and don't have to worry about it being crowded or sales pressure etc...though you could always just buy a blister or a box set to shut those guys up).

There's other things you could try, too, I guess...like instead of just the hourly rate, how about offering a membership of some kind? I dunno, like I said I don't think it's a good idea but I don't think you should give up on it so quickly just because a couple of people on the internet loudly said "NO!", lol...then again it costs a lot of money to start up a business, and for one like this it might be best waiting for the lottery winnings.

Also as a side note i've often wished that game stores had rental armies. So if i feel like playing DE or chaos or IG i could just rent the army for the afternoon play a game and be done with it instead of buying, building and painting a whole army.

Now there's an idea that would pique my interest, lol.